Steel Cage Bearings

[Dave Fox]

Has anyone tried the new generation steel cage bearings that are good for 30,000+ rpm? According to all the bearing manufacturers they are just as good as the plastic cage units. The bearing with no cage is indexed at 75,000 rpm, depending on what cage is used that limits the specific rpm for that unit. Obviously brass will never get it. Short of paying $50 for a phenolic retainer steel may be an alternative to the plastic, they are certainly easier to get in theory.

 

[John Ackerman]

oops.... it is the resonance frequencies that we put these bearings through that fail the retainers not the rpm limitations. One cylinder engines cannot be balanced through the entire rpm spectrum. I for one will not be the test bed for these bearings lol lol

 

[RaceCraftBearings]

Has anyone tried the new generation steel cage bearings that are good for 30,000+ rpm? According to all the bearing manufacturers they are just as good as the plastic cage units. The bearing with no cage is indexed at 75,000 rpm, depending on what cage is used that limits the specific rpm for that unit. Obviously brass will never get it. Short of paying $50 for a phenolic retainer steel may be an alternative to the plastic, they are certainly easier to get in theory.

Hi Dave , you wont pay $50 for any single bearing in my collection and in fact you can get both bearings in Polymide retainers rated at 70,000 rpm for under $40.00 depending on the motor you are needing bearings for. Now the 13 mm and 14 mm crank .20 motors will run just over $40.00 per set. I dont sell the NR Long Stroke large bearing as it is way over priced and my Swiss MFG does not make it, the best place to get it is Bill McGraw at Rossi Sales.

Ron

 

[Dave Fox]

John,

I was not asking anyone to be a test bed for anything, so in future posts please just answer in a polite manner. I have run bearings with steel retainers in the past that had SKF written all over them and they lasted several seasons in an OPS. This was before the introduction of plastic retainers. Granted there is a difference of 5,000 rpm or so. This was simply to find out if anyone had run them. Being familiar with ceramic alloys I wonder how they hold up in a bearing? They hold up really well in cutting tools as long as there are NO harmonics generated during the cutting process. Very hard and very brittle. With cutters, one little squeel and it is generally over. What a finish though. Like a mirror in Inconel and 17-4 that has been heat treated. As you know technology in everything has advanced greatly in the last 10 years. I was simply asking a question. SKF now has an "Explorer" series bearing that is good up to 35,000 rpm in the 6002 series with a steel cage. This is also dependant on the lubrication. Seems to me with the PAG (Poly-alkalene glycol) lubricants we are using it would be higher. They were calling out a product with lower film strength. Perhaps they are using a different alloy on the cage? This is why I was asking.

 

[John Ackerman]

hmmm probably right on the alloy. SKF has probably built some of the finest bearings in the world and we use them in a ton of aircraft applications. The original retainers were normally of some brass material with metal tangs folded over. I know there are now some riveted retainers that come in some of these engines and my understanding is that they have not failed and that that is the only bearing available in that size.. I went throught the horrors of failed retainers many years ago so that is why my post.

 

[Geraghty]

Hey Ackerman..............If you remember several years ago,when all of us were running almost strictly K&B,the metal retainers in bearings were always a P.I.A.

In the late 70's early 80's K&B came out with their "plastic" retainers and those retainer problems became a memory.

In the last 8-10 years however I have used several "rubber sealed" bearings in motors and they only come with metal retainers.I have had no problems whatsoever with those bearings.

Since then I would say 95+% of failed bearings I see have been user abused.

NOte:All O.S. big motor bearings had metal retainers and they lasted very well as long as they were maintained. go figured.

Maintenance appears to be the answer.

Don't get me wrong,I always plug in plastic retainered bearings as long as they are available.

 

[Don Ferrette]

"I was not asking anyone to be a test bed for anything, so in future posts please just answer in a polite manner"

Geez, lighten up a little there Dave. We are ALLOWED to have a sense of humor in THIS group.

Last I checked LOL meant LOTS OF LAUGHS!! Sure don't see anything impolite in John's post. :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:

 

[Dave Fox]

I would first like to thank Rod for his straight forward and informative answer to my question. As for the answer earlier, I was not trying to be funny, nor was I looking to be laughed at for asking a question that I really did want to know the answer too. I have been around since the days of brass and poorly constructed steel retained bearings. I saw this information on the SKF web site yesterday and really wanted an objective and serious answer to my question. I also know that all the OS VRM series engines came with SKF bearings with steel retainers at that time. I was running the K&B .67 and had 4 low S/N engines out of the first production run. It was a big improvement to have bearings that would last most of the season. Regardless of some of the other problems that I had initially with the engines. My whole purpose for the post was to get some feedback from those who may have been following technology, not to be ridiculed for being curious about information that is available on the web today. Especially when we are paying $400 for engines now instead of the $175 I paid for the K&B .67 back in 1980 or so.

 

[Bart Drieghe]

i think this is running out of hand ,

a : john only meant on a funny way that he wouldn't test it

b: john has lots of experience so

c: if u can't see the joke into things hmm well lol rcboat doesn't handle jokes lol here we do lmao

just my two cents ,

and oh yea , i got no experience at all with testing bearings , but i sure wanna get my postings higher , i wanna catch u gene , don , tom , tim lol think its gonna take time tho lol B) B)

 

[rcboatlover]

If you guys need bearings give me the part #'s and I'll get you a price. I have "connections" and might be able to save you some cash!

Dale P.

 

[waterbug]

 

 

**** !!!! You just can't find a good " PROCTOLOGIST " when you need him !!

 

 

MASKED MARVEL ?? Do you still have that " MONKEY SNATCHER " handy????

 

 

NO !!! That's Genes wife's !!!! She'll get PO'ed if you use that one !!! Thats only for jerking monkeys out of Genes A@@ !!!!!!! h34r:

 

[DaveMarles]

John Ackerman said it... Its not the rpm thats the limitation on steel caged bearings, its the vibration. Steel caged bearings including the best riveted steel cage bearings will disintegrate in our engines. The small front bearings are OK with steel cages but inside the engine, forget it. Even on the front bearings, I only use phenolic or polymid retainers. Its just not worth ruining the engine for a few cents/euros/pence.

I'm sure there will be someone who says they have run steel cage bearings for years with no problems but in my experience they are a no-no. Rod is right in saying most bearing failures these days are from abuse ie no afterun or too little/rubbish oil.

Full complement bearings with no cage is the ultimate way to go but there are not too many of them around and its a pain to make them up yourself although it has been the only answer on a few engines I've used.

If you have an engine that you can't get non metallic retainers for, its not too difficult to make your own plastic retainers. I've done it and I'm no engineer.

 

[TimD]

Even on the front bearings, I only use phenolic or polymid retainers. Its just not worth ruining the engine for a few cents/euros/pence.

I have to echo Dave M's comments also, based on my experiences with "older steel caged bearings". Polyamide or phenolic only for me at the moment.

After reading this thread for the second time I thought I'd mention that Dave F had a perfectly legitimate question in asking if anyone had tried the new generation bearings. It seems that all of the negative answers about steel cages refer to the old days and I too initially thought of responding in the same way.... If I had thought of looking into them I'd probably ask the same question on here to potentially save myself some time and / or cash I could spend on other boat stuff!

I'm sure everyone prefers to keep it light hearted on this site guys

Monkey snatcher?? What the? Is that something you see at the Proctologist's office or only at the Gillman household? :lol:

 

[Kez]

All,

I have been reusing the polyimide/phenolic retainers for many years without any problem. I just buy the regular brass or steel cage bearings from my local bearing shop and remove the cage. Push the polyimide retainer from the old bearing. Clean it and it snaps right into the new bearing.

In fact, I suspect this was how K&B made their early high speed bearing. One time while cleaning a brand new K&B .21 (that was in the early 80's), I discovered two pieces of steel cage tab in the big rear bearing. The tabs could have caused damage. I guess at the time they must have an assembly line removing the steel cages and replacing them with plastic ones.

Regards,

Kez

 

[Dave Fox]

Last post for me. Seems to me I remember something about people running people out of clubs on both sites. I will confine my questions to people I know. As far I as this site goes, It is just a little too much fun for me.

 

[Don Ferrette]

If that's your choice well then so be it. John's a helluva nice guy & certainly meant no ill will whatsoever. A sense of humor is required here, we like to think we're all friends & can joke openly with each other.

 

[Slideblues]

"Monkey Snatcher"

Ha,Ha, Butchie ya crack me up :lol:

I had to take all of Marvels toys away, He just gets too hyper

Actually its Na Na Puddin ya got ta worry about, She 300 lbs of buckskin covered Cherokee grandma,

Gives me shivers just thinkin bout it

 

[Na Na Puddin]

Well Slide, what a nice thing to say

But I'm 265 and holding, Now come here its time to spank a Hiney!!!!

 

[Slideblues]

Seeeeee........Told Ya So..........Run!!!!!............... :lol:

 

[Don Templeton]

"Good GOD Ackerman"

Four lousy posts into this forum from a (nubie) and you've got the wholeplace in an uproar!

It's great to see you over here with some of the other expert engine builders. Hope things are well for you and Elaine. See if you can get Marty over here. I really miss the great times we had.

Don