P Limited Hydro IMPBA.

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Isaac Lathrop

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Jul 30, 2019
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9
I have to ponder.. maybe.. just maybe "limited" has run its course and we just move on to "P"?

Right now.. today.. how does "limited" help gain racers that "P" would not.

In limited.. now.. today.. what is the intent?
Then
What does the "limited" in limited mean?
IS
it now just an "add on class"?
IS
it now.. a records chasing class?

Open question...

Grim
For me it's $$$. I can race more boats in the limited classes. 40$ esc (flycolor 150) 40$ motor (RC juice) and some cheap batteries. Competitive and reliable. Or build in an open class where the boat can become a money pit. Trying to race guys with thicker wallets.
Just my .02$
 

T.S.Davis

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Feb 20, 2003
Messages
558
Right now.. today.. how does "limited" help gain racers that "P" would not.

In limited.. now.. today.. what is the intent?
Then
What does the "limited" in limited mean?
IS
it now just an "add on class"?
IS
it now.. a records chasing class?

Open question...

Grim
If the classes had "run they're course" then why are they still the most populated electric classes at every event that offers electric classes?

I suppose the real answer is that it already does gain racers P doesn't.
It gains racers because it's pretty simple. You don't have to be a physicist to get started. It's so simple to tech it's almost silly. Unlike say.....every stock gas class from last week where a very experienced racer got it wrong. An idiot can get this right and they do. Full P opens you up to literally thousands of interpretations. We also already have those classes. The racers aren't flocking to them. More amps, more watts, usually more battery capacity, more parts fatigue. P classes have been around since I've been racing. One could argue that without limited they would have no choice. Good plan. We tell those interested "Run what we tell you or don't race". With P on the IMPBA books and limited NOT on the books..........venues still have more entries in limited than P with make shift rules.

"Limited" is the size of the motor, size of the boat, voltage.

For the guys that run the class and are really really into it they would like to set a record. How is that different from any other class? The arguments against allowing records would be pretty interesting I think.
Hard to tech? Length x width for the motor ain't that hard. So can't be that. Has to be something else. Some other motivation that is beyond my comprehension

Not allowing the most prominently contested FE classes for the past decade to be legitimate in the eyes of the rule book is ludicrous. It ignores the racers that are and/or have been racing it in one form or another for over a decade. It's as though the BOD knows guys are racing it......the numbers don't lie.........but they simply do not care.
 

T.S.Davis

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Feb 20, 2003
Messages
558
I have to ponder.. maybe.. just maybe "limited" has run its course and we just move on to "P"?
Just thought of this and I type hella fast.

An even tougher argument is this.........what do we need P for? I mean if it's hard to field heats, aren't the racers telling us something with their participation? I'm a full P fan by the way. Whole different can of worms. Both organizations keep classes on the books that are long dead for a couple boats per year to run the traps. OH But limited? Keep that off the books dang it!
 

Fred685

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Jun 18, 2005
Messages
114
I have read most of this thread and feel like I should give my opinion as part of the IMPBA BOD. I’m the IMPBA district 12 director. I usually make every district 12 and 13 race each year. The only limited class we run in D 12 is tunnel. Usually this class doesn’t get enough entries to make the class. As for D 13, the guys running limited are also running full P. P limited is not attracting any new boaters on the east coast. That brings me to this question. Why do we need P limited? If it began as a beginner class, where the average guy could easily buy a boat and race economically and competitively, then it has run its course. If it’s just to add another class for the guys who also run full P, then it’s a waste of time. It’s running like 2 classes of 20 mono. The truth is P limited is not more economical then full P. You need the same boat, ESC and battery. I don’t see a difference. Now, if we want to create a beginner class to attract new members, I’m all for it. If someone proposes a class that is truly an entry level class, than I’m a yes vote. Because the class would be geared towards beginners, I would think there isn’t a need for world records. My personal opinion on those pushing IMPBA for a national rule is that it will open up more opportunity to set world records. Sorry if I offended any of the P limited supporters, but that’s my opinion.
 

HTV Boats

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Nov 8, 2006
Messages
2,357
Fred,
With all due respect I have to disagree with a few points. As for tunnels and I am a pro tunnel as anyone, but P/L is not a good class to start out in. They simply wind up upside down to easily. Too much torque! Guys get frustrated and move on.
Beginner classes don't work. To fill out numbers experienced racers set up beginner boats and crush newbies. Cost effective classes that allow beginners to compete attract new people IMO.
As for P and P/L cost? Yes a P/L will enter full P for a class to run but night and day cost difference. A 3660 motor and 150 controller around $100 plus in a 30" hull vs a 40X100 and 300 plus amp controller in a 34" hull. Huge cost and performance difference. Not the same boat, battery and esc by any means.
If P/L is not attracting racers why are clubs offering the classes and filling them. Maybe certain areas aren't there but where is future growth coming from. How many new to boat racing members are staring out in Nitro? Will you see more new nitro or FE racers? Gas is adding classes that racers are asking for. Yet the FE majority is P/L and are falling on deaf ears. When it is offered as a proposal and defeated by an FE membership vote beyond the BOD I'll shut up.
Mic
 

RaceMechaniX

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Messages
2,714
Although there are few large FE races anymore, when they were well attended the limited classes were extremely competitive. The seasoned racers all have dedicated P-Ltd hulls and setups and in some races like the Mid Michigan cup guys were willing to burn motors every round and replace them to win. I am willing to wager that racers who follow the NAMBA rules and IMPBA proposal will find a new limit, but still risk burning up equipment. It's a poor argument, but in full P the hull and driver skill are the limitation not the power system.

Regarding the cost, I agree it could be less compared to full P, however nothing prevents me from buying a $300 motor and $400 ESC. If that combo is dominant is it fair to exclude it? I say no.
 

Isaac Lathrop

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
Messages
9
I have read most of this thread and feel like I should give my opinion as part of the IMPBA BOD. I’m the IMPBA district 12 director. I usually make every district 12 and 13 race each year. The only limited class we run in D 12 is tunnel. Usually this class doesn’t get enough entries to make the class. As for D 13, the guys running limited are also running full P. P limited is not attracting any new boaters on the east coast. That brings me to this question. Why do we need P limited? If it began as a beginner class, where the average guy could easily buy a boat and race economically and competitively, then it has run its course. If it’s just to add another class for the guys who also run full P, then it’s a waste of time. It’s running like 2 classes of 20 mono. The truth is P limited is not more economical then full P. You need the same boat, ESC and battery. I don’t see a difference. Now, if we want to create a beginner class to attract new members, I’m all for it. If someone proposes a class that is truly an entry level class, than I’m a yes vote. Because the class would be geared towards beginners, I would think there isn’t a need for world records. My personal opinion on those pushing IMPBA for a national rule is that it will open up more opportunity to set world records. Sorry if I offended any of the P limited supporters, but that’s my opinion.
I respectively disagree, to be competitive in a open class, a 40$ ESC & 50$ motor and low C batteries won't get it done. So it gets a lot more expensive to play in an open class. At the FE races here on the west coast, limited classes typically have more boats than open. I believe it comes down to the size of the wallet. If someone wants to build a 1000$ P-Lmtd boat. They still have to finish 6 laps. I have no problem finishing 2ND behind them on a low $ build.
 

T.S.Davis

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Feb 20, 2003
Messages
558
I'm not offended Fred. This is good discussion and I'm glad you're thinking about it at all.

The limited classes were never intended to be "beginner" classes. I'm not sure where this myth originated. I've been racing FE for over 20 years now. I think. Somewhere around there. I own boats for every power level from 2s to 10s. I race limited most of all. I'm not an entry level racer. We do have entry level club racers running limited. Brian Buass raced limited when he came to Michigan. Newland would race limited when he traveled. Haines races everything so he don't count. haha IN fact, every NAMBA FE National high points champion since 2009 raced limited.

The very first modern rendition of "limited" passed through my district in 2008/2009 before it went out for a NAMBA vote. It came through D2 so I'm speaking from first hand knowledge. Not through conjecture. The intent was parity but only to a degree. The real goal was to provide something for everyone. Enough speed to entice existing veteran racers and enough accessibility for new guy to get started in racing relatively easy. New guy could buy a shelf boat and race. He still can. New guy isn't going to win against vet racers. If anybody thinks that.....they don't know racing.

This is true for the "stock" gas classes too. New guy can buy a stocker. Even if it's from an accomplished racer..... Jessy Lee is going to crush them. But it works! New guy is out on the pond learning, smiling, and having the time if his life. Jessy will probably be elbow deep in their boat helping them find speed too. It's the same with FE. Vets are there helping new guy get faster.

Fred, I get that FE isn't growing in IMPBA D12. You would need a super freak FE guy for that. NAMBA has no gas racing in D2 that I'm aware of. I can't use that as an indication that gas boat racing isn't growing. Your notion that the classes are some how intended to be entry level shows how the BOD sees limited. Still not offended BTW.

"Limited" regardless of how anybody felt about it then or feels about it now put heats on the water at every major race that offered FE. It still is doing so. The numbers are the numbers. If you travel to an event with FE........limited leads the FE entries every time.

Sorry for the long winded response everybody. Did I mention I type fast?
 

Doug Smock

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Nov 27, 2007
Messages
924
Fred's D12 FE "super freak" is running LSG and has been for a few years now.. 😎

"The limited classes were never intended to be "beginner" classes. I'm not sure where this myth originated." It might have started with the hobby shop guys that were going to show up in masses since they would now have a place & class to run in. Oops, that went away quickly didn't it? LOL The intent was the first item of contention. Folks couldn't and still don't agree on what the original intent was. In the D13 GP Series it was an introduction to FE. Now from what I'm hearing, it will be gone from the series at the end of the year. Dang, I hope FE in D13 survives....lol😉
 
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Fred685

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Jun 18, 2005
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114
You guys have valid points. Limited racing is strong in some areas. Non existent in others. I haven’t been on the BOD when the limited proposal was talked about. From what I have learned, limited is done on a club or district level. The only problem I see with that is confusion for a new guy. But you said it yourself, it’s not a beginner class. As for a cheap 150 amp ESC, it won’t last. My limited mono on the old rules barely pulled a 100 amps. I put in Dons motor and with the same set up and now pull 190. And also, I have seen some rookies who came from RC car racing beat the snot out of us old guys. I’ve been playing with RC boats since 1990. Oddly my first boat was electric, but after that all gas and nitro until 2018. Currently I’m thinning the FE fleet. Too much burnt electronic smell in my shop. I’m not opposed to a national P limited class, but I still don’t see a need for it other than records. If we do P limited, why stop there? Q limited, S limited, T limited.
 

Samuel Hagan JR

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So because it don’t work in some areas it work at all. That’s B/S logic. IMPBA had no problems adding a ton of GAS classes easily but we can’t get this going. And some of those classes don’t run or are dying off.

I’ll have something for my District Director when I see him on 2 weeks. Hopefully the BOD will pass it along.
 

Fred685

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What would the problems be with limiting battery weight? That would slow the heat racing down so limited would at least look different than full P. It would be simple to tech. A scale is all that is needed. Current legal NAMBA boats would all be legal. Might have to prop down to make 6 laps.
 

Samuel Hagan JR

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You guys have valid points. Limited racing is strong in some areas. Non existent in others. I haven’t been on the BOD when the limited proposal was talked about. From what I have learned, limited is done on a club or district level. The only problem I see with that is confusion for a new guy. But you said it yourself, it’s not a beginner class. As for a cheap 150 amp ESC, it won’t last. My limited mono on the old rules barely pulled a 100 amps. I put in Dons motor and with the same set up and now pull 190. And also, I have seen some rookies who came from RC car racing beat the snot out of us old guys. I’ve been playing with RC boats since 1990. Oddly my first boat was electric, but after that all gas and nitro until 2018. Currently I’m thinning the FE fleet. Too much burnt electronic smell in my shop. I’m not opposed to a national P limited class, but I still don’t see a need for it other than records. If we do P limited, why stop there? Q limited, S limited, T limited.
I heard some guys in FL are starting a Q limited Class. I would like to know what there running but not sure who to talk to.
 

Samuel Hagan JR

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What would the problems be with limiting battery weight? That would slow the heat racing down so limited would at least look different than full P. It would be simple to tech. A scale is all that is needed. Current legal NAMBA boats would all be legal. Might have to prop down to make 6 laps.
NAMBA has a Mah limit.
 

Fred685

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Samuel, you missed my point. Under NAMBA rules, I don’t see a difference in P and P limited. I’m not against a limited class, just don’t like what it has become under current rules.
 

Fred685

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I also don’t know you Samuel. Where are you from and where do you race? I know all these other guys so I’m just curious
 

Samuel Hagan JR

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NAMBA P Limited has a CAN size rule. P Hydro doesn’t. That’s the discussion on why IMPBA doesn’t have one.
 

Samuel Hagan JR

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I’m from Louisville KY. I travel everywhere and race boats. All shapes and sizes. All fuel and electric . Don’t care. Plan on going to the CanAm if the border opens up next year. Don’t care where I race just as long as I’m socializing with friends and running boats. Some places I won’t go back to. I help where and when I can. I shop up to races I don’t race and help. Don’t care. Love boat racing. Especially the Sport Hydro and Scale boats. They are my favorite.

I don’t get why a handful of people want to argue the point of “well they will cheat” or It won’t last or it’s not popular in my area. That’s dumb. Our jobs as members and IMPBA should be to promote as much as we can, get a class that more people will be more opt to get in because of cash or they don’t like Nitro or Gas. There’s a ton of FE Sport boaters out there. If we can pool those people in, it’s a win win for us and IMPBA. So why not. We can make rule changes as we go and members can vote on it. That’s how it works. But if the BOD won’t let FE start making for Classes but we can add all these gas classes we want all day long.
 

Samuel Hagan JR

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I am also by no means a expert in FE. A lot of what you guys where talking about I have no idea on. But I’m learning as I go. 1 thing I have learned is that this P limited issue in IMPBA has been going on for a long time. So maybe it’s time for a change.
 

donaldhuff

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Feb 13, 2017
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Fred, Limited is dying? No new racers joining that class? Getting to expensive? The class going away at the end of this year?

At last weekends fiasco, I delivered 2 new RTR limited mono boats to Deryl and JJ. And I have one in the shop building it for a man in Huntsville. And they DO NOT cost as much as a full P cost. Deryl's boat have an OSE Raider 150 esc and a reworked hobbystar motor, and the total cost for the boats was between $650-$700 a piece. Granted, I'm not trying to make a living building boats, and I do tend to put way more time into them than I should for the price. But I enjoy doing it and handing a guy or girl a truly RTR boat. And BTW, Deryl beat me! And that was the first time he ever even drove the boat. We had to bind the radio in the hot pit! And yes I had one of my super dooper bulging at the seams motors, and a castle mamba xlx controller, and my go for it attitude, and I was upside down by lap 3.
 
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