P Limited Hydro IMPBA.

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Samuel Hagan JR

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Is there any specs or info on this in IMPBA. I looked through the rule book and there’s nothing in there for P limited. I seen it offered at some races but I can’t find any info on it?
 

HTV Boats

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Nov 8, 2006
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P limited DOES NOT OFFICIALLY exist in IMPBA! Sorry sore spot. The class is run under local class rules which seem to be from 36mm X 56,5 to 60mm can length depending on the area. Would be so nice to just adopt and mirror NAMBA rules. I believe it would pass easily if it ever gets past the BOD. At present FE is still not main stream enough to generate concern.
Mic
 

BretMartin

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Apr 30, 2018
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Maybe if Spec classes were added like NAMBA it would become main stream. They are the majority of the entries at our events.
 

RaceMechaniX

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Apr 27, 2007
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There is much more to this below the surface. I was speaking to the IMPBA FE director this weekend and it's difficult to agree upon a good spec whilst trying to ensure performance parity and cost caps. Sounds like some ideas are in the works. Best just to check with the CD of upcoming races on what is legal.
 

Grimracer

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Dec 27, 2001
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If it was me.. I would call Terry Davis.. have him bring forward a set of rules (as best he knows them) and use them for a 2 year trial period.



Grim
 

J.J. Horvath

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May 29, 2019
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The rules are a mess / non existent and you basically need to have different setups, depending on where you race. I can see why there is no growth because of this, causing some FE racers to leave the class / not attend races, and good luck trying to explain it to the new guys..

For example, are you good at rewinding inrunner motors? Kinda ironic you have to be able to rewind a spec motor to compete in the class. Can’t use a box stock 3660 in some places, but a 36x56.5 is ok with internal parts from a 3660 with more copper added to the windings. It’s like completely modifying the internals on a Zenoah 26cc, and still being allowed in in the Stock Gas class, because it’s still a 26cc case.

It’s not hard to develop the rules, copy Namba P- limited rules for continuity and promoting racers to travel between the Orgs. Then not allowing internal modifications, so you keep the specs and output as it was manufactured..
 

Grimracer

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Dec 27, 2001
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your right not hard to develop.. thats the easy part.. one call to Terry and done...

ITS policing them!

Also.. when it comes to FE racing.. CHANGE IS GOOD.. RIGHT? Better be.. cuz the technology will be tweaked EVERY YEAR!

Never the less.. nothing plus nothing equals................. so some rules are better then none.

Grim
 

HTV Boats

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Nov 8, 2006
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2,318
As it stands the NAMBA rules are working in general. Yes you can stuff more wire in and a couple other tricks but you still need boat, prop and setup.
Enforcement is easy with can limits. Pre inspection and a dab of a different color nail polish for the event and you could make a claiming rule. Right now less than $100 will get a decent motor. So anyone puts up $100 and they get the winning motor would keep rewinds in check. Over time the amount could change to reflect the market price.
FYI my son Jay lowered the NAMBA P/L Hydro recently with a out of the box Leopard 3660. This setup has done well in local races also.
 

longballlumber

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Apr 17, 2003
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1,237
FE racing in any "limited" form is going to suffer until we can better control WATT output of a power system. The intent of P-Limited is no longer agreed upon. IMO, the class has run it's course. The rules have been exploited by individuals that have the time and knowledge to do so. To be clear, I am not upset with them, nor do I blame them. They are completely playing "inside" of the rule set they were given. Quite frankly all of us active FE racers let P-Limited get out of hand by not protecting ourselves from ourselves. Before we knew it, the class had taken a hard right turn and deviated from it's original intent.

Unlike IC motors where displacement provides a HP output range, FE I can produce the same WATT output with 4s voltage as I can with 6s voltage.

For those following along...

Amps X Volts = Watts

I think of P-Limited stock vs. re-winds much like allowing a .21 nitro and a .28 nitro being allow to run together..... it's only .08 additional cubic inch!!! Do you think they will allow that anytime soon? I think not. You WILL will be able to pull more pitch with a .28 than you can with a .21. The same goes for re-winds vs. stock 3660 motors.

At this point we are not that far away from the "P" class. Why not just run P? That is written in the IMPBA book and has been there for years. Trust me, P-Limited is not saving anyone any money at this point. Batteries are easily accessible and motors are more affordable than ever. Not to mention, it puts this entire dilemma to rest.

As the FE director, I am more that willing to take any phone calls or questions over the phone. This specific conversation about P-Limited has been beat to death over the last 5-6 years. Please reach out if you think I can help.

MOST IMPORTANTLY!!! Do whatever works for your local area to generate new members! There are many IMPBA classes that are no longer participated in because they ran their course or technology caught up. It doesn't need to be a "national" rule set in order for it to promote the hobby in your local area!

Thanks,
Mike Ball
 

HTV Boats

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Nov 8, 2006
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2,318
In trying to promote growth in FE it would be very helpful to have a consistent national rules structure. Local classes work but hard to get people to build equipment then tell them it isn't legal in another area. Look at FE race entries anywhere and P/Limited local or national are the majority and where your new growth is.
Watts = HP. Size, can length and diameter determine how much wire and rotor magnets will fit. Longer rotor more wire more Watts (HP) but limited to size of the can. Bigger motors will make more power. Smaller motors blue-printed for lack of better terms will add power but even with the best components are limited by size.
Voltage doesn't always make more power. It may affect efficiency. Higher voltage allows power with less amps. Increase voltage and amps you go faster. Going to 6S with a 4S boat and using the same prop load amps go through the roof. The limit here is controller, price, availability, cost and weight. Big controllers add these costs so to speak. Look at records and "P" Q" S" and T, 2 laps are not far apart. In some cases a "P",in calm conditions outperforms larger boats with better weight to HP.
Back to P/L rules. There are a few "custom" motors out there. Are they stopping FE P/L growth more than not having consistent rules? 36X60 on whatever voltage makes only so much power. (Watts) I want new and more racers. Even with some "ringer" motors out there people will build P/Limited equipment in greater numbers than full "P" Q" and above. Cost will still prevail. The sky isn't falling we are just trying to reach the clouds.
Mic
 

longballlumber

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Apr 17, 2003
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While I don't necessarily disagree with your post, I don't 100% agree with it either. In order to make size limits be effective you need to control or limit motor size across ALL of the voltage classes.

Quite honestly, your talking out of both sides of your mouth. You've repeatedly suggested the IMPBA needs a national rule set for P-Limited, but at the same time your continuing to "do your own thing" with motor size restriction in the Q class (Q Limited) at your local level. You can't have it both ways.

* The previous "standard" for P-limited motors (Aquacraft, Dynamite) are 36X56. Last time I checked that fits within the 36X60 limits.
* There IS a performance advantage with re-wound motors.
* Simple size limits allows racers with deep pockets to get "custom" motors

The intent of the class was always, at a minimum, to be an "off the shelf power source"

Again, I am more that willing to have a phone conversation about the state of FE, discuss FE rules, and communicate the national level of FE participation. What I don't want to do is hash this out in a form. Far too much content of the conversation context gets lost.

Thanks
Mike Ball
 

HTV Boats

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Nov 8, 2006
Messages
2,318
Well you may think what you want about talking out of both sides. Maybe I should not promote events which I work a hell of a lot more than I race. I hustle for hours on the phone and PC to get sponsor donations that get given to contestants. We gave away over $1500 in equipment. Since IMPBA has no recognition of P limited then starting a campaign for a Q econo class locally is a problem? (our Q/lims perform as well as many full "P"s at a much lower cost) I am working in a positive manner moving forward not sitting on my hands saying there is no way to make things happen.
I do believe that the whole voltage classification could be replaced by motor size limits and drop length limits. Our Q/L guys have to make the decision a big slower rough water boat or small fast risking not finishing. The motor limitation keeps ESC cost down. Right now you can buy a TP for $150 or less and a Lehner costs $500+. I don't see Lehners dominating heat racing. Size will only cost so much as you have to add in the ESC that can handle the AMPs. Not many 3660's are going to pull 200 AMPS.

Mic
love to talk text me your number and a good time frame. 239-841-0204
 

longballlumber

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Apr 17, 2003
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1,237
My apologies,

It looks like they removed our contact information off of the IMPBA website due to excessive spamming. I can be reached in the following ways.

email - indymike75@gmail.com
phone - 586-804-0520 no calls past 9pm (EST) please.

Mic, I think you and I agree on more than these posts lead on to believe.
 

Samuel Hagan JR

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Jul 18, 2010
Messages
4,055
So P Limited is going to be more of a local rule then national rule. The reason I’m asking is FE P size is getting more and more popular in my area and I was seeing if there was a standard rule for he P limited guys. And what do the other areas run so that I can fit within there rules like ATL, CMB.
 

longballlumber

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Joined
Apr 17, 2003
Messages
1,237
So P Limited is going to be more of a local rule then national rule. The reason I’m asking is FE P size is getting more and more popular in my area and I was seeing if there was a standard rule for he P limited guys. And what do the other areas run so that I can fit within there rules like ATL, CMB.
Sam,

Aren't you running a Horizon UL-19? If so the stock motor that is included with the boat fits EVERY local/district IMPBA rule that I know of AND it will fit the National NAMBA rule.
 

JohnBooker

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
Messages
5
So P Limited is going to be more of a local rule then national rule. The reason I’m asking is FE P size is getting more and more popular in my area and I was seeing if there was a standard rule for he P limited guys. And what do the other areas run so that I can fit within there rules like ATL, CMB.
Typically the P/Lim motors are a max of 36 x 60 mm , at least for all major events , including ATL spring nats .
 

Samuel Hagan JR

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Joined
Jul 18, 2010
Messages
4,055
Sam,

Aren't you running a Horizon UL-19? If so the stock motor that is included with the boat fits EVERY local/district IMPBA rule that I know of AND it will fit the National NAMBA rule.
Yes Sir. But we would like to build our own P Hydro also. Parts for those Horizon hulls are a bare to get and we plan on either getting some ML or PT hulls to make FE. With the price of Nitro going up and Plugs going and I don’t see them going down we plan on switching to GAS and FE and soon as we run out of fuel. Plus our local club is building a strong support for FE and Indy had a nice FE club also that we would love to run with.
 

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