OS liner

[talonxracer]

I just decided to take the OS down and clean and check things. I pulled the piston and liner and was surprised by the lack of any shiney material on the inside of the liner, looks like a med gray color, whats wrong with this?

Doug

 

[talonxracer]

I have checked out OS Engines parts listing for the replacement piston and liner. The ones listed are actually from the .21RX, a true ABC piston and liner, and not the nickel coating of the XM. Will this still be considered STOCK?

Doug

 

[Brian Schymik]

In IMPBA, it is okay, because the class is not "stock". it is called sport tunnel. Just the carb and exhaust have to be tech checked.

Brian

 

[talonxracer]

That solves that. Now what is the cause of the color change of the liner coating?

Doug

 

[J_Moore]

That solves that. Now what is the cause of the color change of the liner coating?

Doug

Doug from things i heard from people running those engines is that the nickel is very thin and will wear away over a short time . Meaning in my opinion not from fact would be like 2 seasons on it. something like that. Email Randall Thomas at [email protected] This is where i heard it from.

Jeff

 

[talonxracer]

This motor is close to brand new. It has at most 10-12 tanks of fuel thru it. The last tank full that I ran thru it I had a hard time getting the motor warm, the edges of the lake had slush and thin ice forming.

Doug

 

[Geraghty]

That solves that. Now what is the cause of the color change of the liner coating?

Doug

The gray color you see on the liner is the nickle coating from O.S..I suspect O.S. pickles the liner after the nickle plating process and that is what causes the gray color.

I have seen [2] N.I.B. O.S. outboard Motors through my shop with true ABC pistons and sleeves.Since then I have seen N.I.B. outboards with nickle liners.

Does this mean O.S. has updated the P&S assemblies for the outboard??I don't have a clue.

Don't run your motor sqeaky lean and the nickle will last quite awhile.Start sqeezing the needle and the P&S fit [nickle] will go away in a heartbeat.

In the past I have turned down RX-M sleeves to fit into the outboard crankcase.This will give you a true ABC P&S assembly.The timing numbers on the RX-M sleeve works well in the outboard.

 

[Grimracer]

I did some checking ( i have the inside line… heheheheh ) and OS has not made any running changes to the outboard sense its introduction. The liner is nickel plated.

Rod, not sure what you got there.. it could be that they ran out of production PL sets and popped in a few chrome units to fill orders.. not sure..

Grimracer

 

[Eric Bourlet]

Rod, I did some checking with my contacts at Tower and they say no chrome liners are, or have been used in the 21MX. I'm not disputing what you saw but, from that information I would think that if a motor was torn down at a NAMBA event and found to have a chrome liner it would be disqualified. It would be nice to track where those units came from so if we have a source of Hybrid motors out there we make sure someone isn’t disappointed if they buy one thinking it is a NAMBA stock motor and gets disqualified.

As to the post about a nickel liner only is good for two seasons… FWI I ran my OS 21XM powered Vans Racing Lynx here in district 8 and ran the equivalent of 4 hard seasons in one season. I ran the boat in 3.5 Stock, 3.5 Mod, 3.5 Outboard Hydro, and scored most of my points in 3.5 hydro with it as well. I won every class I entered with that combination and it was on a new boat. So I ran a ton of open water with it to get a setup on the combination. I was very careful to avoid any lean burns and run a good oil package in my fuel. I was rather skeptical of the Nickel liner as I had heard that they would not last, but after that much hard racing I think I got my moneys worth out of that liner and would not have been disappointed if the motor did need a new liner but it does not. I am rather glad that OS came out with a good reliable 3.5 OB it is a nice piece of work now if they would just come out with a 7.5 things would really be great in NAMBA outboard Stock racing.

 

[talonxracer]

Eric, In the OS parts page for the .21XM outboard the replacement piston and liner is listed as the set for the .21RX-M. I found 2 different descriptions, a "ABC" and another saying it has a nickel coating. Which is the actual correct description?

Doug

 

[Jerry Wyss]

Looks like Eric's offline for a bit, so , I researched this stuff myself at the "O.S. Home Page"

They have it listed below and to the left of one of their pages, "This is Not an ABC Engine"

I think the 21RG inboard has the same piston and sleeve as the XM OB as I remember.

As I said on another topic, "usually if OS doesn't specify ABC or ABL it's usually it's

something else"

I've run allot of O.S. engines in 27 years,, mostly planes and heli's and I don't ever

remember an engine, other than the XM, that wasn't ABC. I wonder why they didn't

chrome the sleeve on the OB :blink:

I've ran allot of Saito 4 stroke airplane engine's, Really liked them and ran the Snot

out of'em without any sleeve related probs,,they all, I do believe were ABN engine's.

 

[Tim_Duggan]

ABN sleeves have been around for ages - mostly in plane engines where they run little to no nitro, and have a prop cooling them.

They seem less able to handle extreme heat than ABC (not a problem usually in O/B's) and if you port the sleeve the nickel is more likely to flake off. (not a problem for NAMBA stock class as you can't modify them.)

Tim.

 

[Geraghty]

Looks like Eric's offline for a bit, so , I researched this stuff myself at the "O.S. Home Page"

They have it listed below and to the left of one of their pages, "This is Not an ABC Engine"

I think the 21RG inboard has the same piston and sleeve as the XM OB as I remember.

As I said on another topic, "usually if OS doesn't specify ABC or ABL it's usually it's

something else"

I've run allot of O.S. engines in 27 years,, mostly planes and heli's and I don't ever

remember an engine, other than the XM, that wasn't ABC. I wonder why they didn't

chrome the sleeve on the OB :blink:

I've ran allot of Saito 4 stroke airplane engine's, Really liked them and ran the Snot

out of'em without any sleeve related probs,,they all, I do believe were ABN engine's.

Jerry,The older marine inboard motors [.46-.65-.82]were all nickle plated.

Mike,Eric,Believe me, I was also surprized to see the ABC liners in the outboard but I do know the difference and they were definitely ABC.Both the ABC outboard motors I saw were from the same customer and I know they were procurred outside the U.S. They were bought in Finland.Well they were delivered to Finland,they may have been bought somewhere else,I don't know.I will send my customer an e-mail and try to find out where he bought them.

Those [2] O.S. outboards were the only [2] O.S. outboards I have ever seen with ABC P&S's.

That was the reason for my comment about seeing N.I.B. outboards after that with nickle P&S's.

I have never seen a ABC P&S set that will just drop into the outboard.Mike,Since you have the inside track now,ask the O.S. experts if there is an ABC P&S that will just drop into the outboard without being turned down to fit the outboard case.

Eric,Mike,....Doug stated that on the Tower XM parts page the RX-M P&S set is listed as the replacement P&S for the XM outboard.The RX-M is an ABC P&S.If that is the case the RX-M ABC P&S would be a legal NAMBA replacement part for the XM outboard per the factory publications.

If I were you I would check that out on the Tower parts page,print it out and put it in your toolbox.

You might need that someday to save someones ass at the nats.Maybe even your own.

If infact it is exactly as Doug says,even your experts at Tower have no idea what they are selling on their parts pages.

This situation is a prime example of why the NAMBA "stock" rules will eventually have to be visited and revised.NAMBA "stock" inspectors have no idea what a manufacturer turns loose for sale.I have personally seen [2] disqualifications at the NAMBA Nats "stock" tunnel racing for parts I know that came in the motor from the factory.One DQ was for metal gaskets in a 3.5 outboard and the other was for a K&B factory round rod in an 11CC outboard.The inspectors had never seen the gaskets or the round rod before and had no idea what was or wasn't shipped from the factory.

Do you know there were [4] different can mufflers that were used on K&B 3.5 outboards?Hell,there are [3] different adapters to mount those mufflers.

I guarantee there is a NAMBA "stock" inspector out there somewhere that doesn't know that.

There is nobody out there anymore that knows all the changes that K&B's have experienced in the past 30 years.I am probably as close as anybody alive and I have no idea all the changes that K&B/MECOA has made.I do know they have a different rod but thats the only change[other than appearance items] I know of personally.

This exact situation is what makes the IMPBA Sport.21 rules so nice and user friendly.IMPBA doesn't have to worry about factory changes that no one knows about.

 

[Eric Bourlet]

Rod, will the RXM part that is listed as a replacement, fit into an outboard without machining? When I took JDs inboard liner and attempted to fit in in the outboard case it did not fit. I could see a valid argument that if it was a drop in fit and listed on the parts list then yes it would be legal but if you had to machine the block then no it would not.

 

[Geraghty]

Rod, will the RXM part that is listed as a replacement, fit into an outboard without machining? When I took JDs inboard liner and attempted to fit in in the outboard case it did not fit. I could see a valid argument that if it was a drop in fit and listed on the parts list then yes it would be legal but if you had to machine the block then no it would not.

I don't have a clue if it fits or not. :wacko: I never have really ever spent much time on O.S. motors checking out parts compatability between different motors.

If O.S. lists the RX-M P&S as a replacement part for the outboard,I would think there is a pretty good chance it does.

That is why I said you or Mike Z. ought to check with your special contacts at Tower/Hobbico and have them check it out.

Now that I dig farther back into my memory banks,I think it might have been the R"Z"-M liners I turned down to fit in the outboard,not the RX-M liners.

If in fact the RX-M liners do fit the outboard cases,maybe that would explain the [2] N.I.B. outboards I received with the true ABC P&S assemblies in them.

Truthfully,I really don't care one way or the other,but I would think you guys who are racing the O.S. outboard would be very interested in knowing if it does fit.That would be a far superior P&S assembly to put in the outboard in place of the nickle sleeved assemblies.

When I originally posted to this thread,all I was trying to do was just to pass on to all you O.S. racers what I had sent to me for blueprinting.

 

[user 115]

Rod,

For what it's worth, I am pretty sure the liners you turned down were the RZ-M's.. I'll check when I get home as I still have a few..

Charley

 

[Eric Bourlet]

Part number 2 3803 010 from the parts list that is packaged with the motor shows up on tower's site as the replacement for the .21 RX-B . The following is clipped directly from the Tower web page

"This is a replacement cylinder & piston for the .21RX-B,B-P.

 

Features: This is a matched set. You cannot purchase the parts individually.

 

This is an "ABC" cylinder & piston set."A"luminum piston,"B"rass

cylinder liner, with a "C"hrome plating on the cylinder.

 

The plating is actually Nickle but is still being labled ABC not ABN."

Now as to why they list an ABN as ABC and then admit in the fine print is up for anyone’s guess. But it looks like unless someone is turning chrome liners to fit the stock motor the XM is only NAMBA stock with the Nickel liner.

I am sure this will open up the go, no-go gauge discussion again for NAMBA stock and that is most likely a valid topic to open up. We used to have a tech inspection manual in NAMBA that I think Rod G wrote. That allowed anyone to inspect a NAMBA Stock class motor because there was a clearly defined set of instructions as to what exactly needed to be checked. We now have no such thing and it is way to open to the tech inspectors limited exposure to what is out there. Rod has already pointed out that there is no one alive today that knows all the configurations that have shipped from K&B and that last NAMBA Nats I was at there was no tech manual at the event to go by. I like the idea of being able to purchase an off the shelf motor and go win at a National level without having to pay a motor builder ( no offence RG) to hand pick parts from a huge stock to "Blueprint" the motor. So far from what I have seen with the OS is remove the head shim and they run right out of the box, no need to send it off to a builder to work his magic on. If we had a good tech manual we could keep doing this. But it needs to be available to every member so they can verify they are legal before they head off to a big event and make sure things like they didn't end up with a chrome liner in an OS XM. Maybe we NAMBA members need to let the Stock Outboard Chairman know what we want so he can get a good tech manual together. Or maybe we just want to adopt the IMPBA Sport rules and give up all of our stock classes including the tradition and records that go with that. I would hate to see Stock racing become a motor builder’s class as it used to be when the only motor available was the K&B.

 

[talonxracer]

Would not having enough heat during break-in, have caused the nickle coating to have developed such a dark color? This is the full liner from top to bottom, the complete thing not just were there was contact during running. Very strange!

Doug

 

[Jerry Wyss]

I'm going to mention "O.S. Engines Home Page" again,, am I wrong thinking that it would

be a better source than Tower?

Go to "Marine Engines",,".21 XM",,"Tech Notes",at bottom will say,"This is Not an ABC engine"

and to the "Parts Listing". The part #'s, to the far right says "RX-B"

The RX-B is a discontinued car engine,,I think?? Sh1t, I forgot Already

 

[Geraghty]

Part number 2 3803 010 from the parts list that is packaged with the motor shows up on tower's site as the replacement for the .21 RX-B . The following is clipped directly from the Tower web page

"This is a replacement cylinder & piston for the .21RX-B,B-P.

 

Features: This is a matched set. You cannot purchase the parts individually.

 

This is an "ABC" cylinder & piston set."A"luminum piston,"B"rass

cylinder liner, with a "C"hrome plating on the cylinder.

 

The plating is actually Nickle but is still being labled ABC not ABN."

Now as to why they list an ABN as ABC and then admit in the fine print is up for anyone’s guess. But it looks like unless someone is turning chrome liners to fit the stock motor the XM is only NAMBA stock with the Nickel liner.

I am sure this will open up the go, no-go gauge discussion again for NAMBA stock and that is most likely a valid topic to open up. We used to have a tech inspection manual in NAMBA that I think Rod G wrote. That allowed anyone to inspect a NAMBA Stock class motor because there was a clearly defined set of instructions as to what exactly needed to be checked. We now have no such thing and it is way to open to the tech inspectors limited exposure to what is out there. Rod has already pointed out that there is no one alive today that knows all the configurations that have shipped from K&B and that last NAMBA Nats I was at there was no tech manual at the event to go by. I like the idea of being able to purchase an off the shelf motor and go win at a National level without having to pay a motor builder ( no offence RG) to hand pick parts from a huge stock to "Blueprint" the motor. So far from what I have seen with the OS is remove the head shim and they run right out of the box, no need to send it off to a builder to work his magic on. If we had a good tech manual we could keep doing this. But it needs to be available to every member so they can verify they are legal before they head off to a big event and make sure things like they didn't end up with a chrome liner in an OS XM. Maybe we NAMBA members need to let the Stock Outboard Chairman know what we want so he can get a good tech manual together. Or maybe we just want to adopt the IMPBA Sport rules and give up all of our stock classes including the tradition and records that go with that. I would hate to see Stock racing become a motor builder’s class as it used to be when the only motor available was the K&B.

Eric,As to the motor builder reference....no offense taken.

What you O.S. racers have to do is to become proactive and start covering your asses.

I think what you have to do is inform the NAMBA Stock Outboard Chairman that O.S. is selling parts for the XM outboard that were originally for the RX-M motor but are "now" the official O.S. replacement parts now being sold by O.S. for the XM outboard.You guys are going to have to document this scenario for the stock outboard inspectors.

Eric,no offense but you still don't understand this scenario ........As for what is available for the XM if you bought it new from the factory"today",you would be right that only nickle is available "new today" from the factory,but the older RX-M liners were chrome and it appears they will fit in the current XM outboard cases.I am sure there are still some of those P&S assemblies out there somewhere for sale in some LHS somewhere or on ebay that could well end up in an outboard at a NAMBA race.Per the current XM outboard parts list and the notes about the P&S assemblies....Quote,The liners are still called "ABC" but are "now" actually nickle....It is obvious that they were originally chrome at one time and have now gone to nickle.If one of those old chrome liners,bought from a LHS stock, showed up in an outboard ,it would have to be a legal "replacement" part for the outboard.

I "know" the older mid 90's RX-M motors were true ABC motors.

Eric,think about this.....Now suppose you needed a P&S for your outboard and you called Hobbytown looking for a P&S.The salesman looks in the outboard parts list,and it says you can use the RX-M P&S as a replacement part.The salesman says,yes siree we got one here a hangin' on the wall.

So you rush down to Hobbytown in Tacoma and there hanging on the wall is that RX-M P&S and it has been hanging there since 1995[chrome].You proceed to buy it,you take it home,you install it and you throw it in the car and off to Florida you go for the 2006 NAMBA Nats.Now you shine in Florida and you go out and win all 5 heats. Now you take your motor up to the stock outboard inspector,he takes it apart and he proceeds to tell you that you are illegal because you have a chrome liner.I suspect it would take an hour to get you off the ceiling.Think about it.I have seen this scenario happen "twice" at a nats.

Here is another snafu for you to consider.......Did you also happen to notice in the XM outboard parts list that the replacement crankcase for the XM outboard is the RX-M crankcase.The same scenario applies here also.If an O.S. outboard showed up at a NAMBA Nats with a RX case,it would be perfectly Legal under the current NAMBA rules.

Here is an interesting thought....Why are there no XM crankcases for sale in the current parts list for the outboard?Is the O.S. outboard being phased out or is O.S. just using up old mid '90's RX-M parts on the XM outboard or...what or what or what ????????

I am pretty confident now the RX-M P&S was what was in the [2] outboard motors I had sent to me from Finland for blueprinting.I do know that the client that sent me those [2] motors buys a lot of parts from a "big" hobby shop in Hong Kong and has them shipped to him in Finland.I suspect that is where he got those motors.