Lipo Lowdown From My POV.

[AlanN]

Andrew,

We should have open water by March...late march early April.

Jay,

Yes, you got it. As I stated before I like to run 2P since it is less stress on the cells.

Since the cells are in parallel you are not increasing voltage but you will increase the mah.

 

[JfromJAGs]

Just so I am on the same page I have some questions. I have been thinking for the past 6 mounts that 1P or 2P ment that say for p sport hydro you can use 4 cells (1P) of say the TP EX 5000 type. If they say its ok for 2P and it (passed) ((looks like it did) now I can run 2 x the cell count in this class. 4s2p pack of 5000 cell can be used (8 cells total)?Same thing for say 1/8th scale. What used to be 32 round cells can now be 10 TP EX 5000 cells or if I wanted to go 2P it can be 20 cells... AKA 10S2P of the 5000 type cells.

Is that correct?

You are absolutely correct.

NAMBA

* allowed LiPo's,

* changed to the classes to be voltage base instead of cell count,

* allowed the double amount of cells compared to last year

* more than doubled the capacity compared to last year (10,000/12,000mAh vs. aprox. 4200mAh)

* allowed T power for 1/8 scale

So even running NiMH's in P sport hydro, you are now allowed to install 24 cells instead of 12 - they just need to be paralleled as 2 packs of 12 cells in series.

Using LiPo's you can either run 4s1p or 4s2p - in sum up to 10,000mAh nominal capacity.

1/8 scale, as well as T hydro or T mono, can run up to 64 NiMH cells or 20 LiPo's cells (the just need to be paralleled so it does not exeed the voltage of 32 NiMH cells).

For the rest of the discussion ( I was off for work a few days):

* "Franzinskaner Hefe Weizen" is very ok with me, I like the dark best: www.franziskaner.com

But we could also have "a Paulaner Hefe Weizen" www.paulaner.de

I just don't see how Paul can get it in the US...

* Kelly, next time we go to pub instead of having a monster steak. Give me a call once you are here again.

Joerg

 

[JfromJAGs]

Jay,Yes, you got it. As I stated before I like to run 2P since it is less stress on the cells.

Since the cells are in parallel you are not increasing voltage but you will increase the mah.

As I stated before you will increase the stress on the motor and controller as you will have more power from the batteries available and you will need it as everyone will be runnung 2P and pushing it... never mind...

 

[topfuel443]

* "Franzinskaner Hefe Weizen" is very ok with me, I like the dark best: www.franziskaner.com But we could also have "a Paulaner Hefe Weizen" www.paulaner.de

I just don't see how Paul can get it in the US...

Joerg

See!

I am glad you agree Joerg. And I agree that Paulaner is a great second choice... dunkel fur mich auch! (Its ok, I know I am botching my German, but you get the point...)

~James

 

[Patrick M]

FYI guys-

Franziskaner Hefe Weizen and Dunkel Weizen are available in the States.... even on tap in some locations. Likewise the Paulaner Weizen varieties.

Not my cup of brew, though. I prefer a good high ABV Stout or Double IPA.....

 

[AlanN]

Jay,Yes, you got it. As I stated before I like to run 2P since it is less stress on the cells.

Since the cells are in parallel you are not increasing voltage but you will increase the mah.

As I stated before you will increase the stress on the motor and controller as you will have more power from the batteries available and you will need it as everyone will be runnung 2P and pushing it... never mind...

Why post if I'm to never mind.

So,

Since I am using the same V in either a 1 or 2P set up....how is that using more power? You are assuming that I and or everyone else will push their electronics to the limit. Just becouse the amps are there does not mean that they will be used to their fullest potential and shorten their life. Running ovals and offshore courses require quite a different balance than SAW setups. We obviously spend more time on the water and their is more heat build up. So if you want to torch a motor and speed controller...heh go ahead. You seem to keep forgetting that we are limiting hull sizes( in IMPBA).....that is the single most important method to prevent those from over amp'ing and over watt'ing their boats.

 

[Kris Flynn]

Funny how some people get rubbed up wrong and cant take a bit of FUN geeeeze

 

[JfromJAGs]

Since I am using the same V in either a 1 or 2P set up....how is that using more power? You are assuming that I and or everyone else will push their electronics to the limit. Just becouse the amps are there does not mean that they will be used to their fullest potential and shorten their life. Running ovals and offshore courses require quite a different balance than SAW setups. We obviously spend more time on the water and their is more heat build up. So if you want to torch a motor and speed controller...heh go ahead. You seem to keep forgetting that we are limiting hull sizes( in IMPBA).....that is the single most important method to prevent those from over amp'ing and over watt'ing their boats.

Alan, racing is about using whatever you got to the best possible overall limit. If you got more battery power availabe you could, for example, prop up and add bigger turn fins and rudders to increase handling, maybe run the boat a bit more wet. It all needs more amps, but if done with knowlege, results in a faster boat. You will keep doing so until your motor or controller is at it's limit. Then you will get yourself a bigger motor and bigger controller - until the batteries are at their limit again. Then there will be a 4P rule and the game starts over again... I may again recommend the battery basics thread.

The IMPBA hull size limit is a joke compared to 2006 common hull sizes. First, IMPBA allows S mono hulls for P now - which after all makes some sence as IMPBA also allowed S power for P.... not even talking about hydro where the proposed length limit for all classes is at least 50% longer than my SAW T hydro...

Second, hull sizes limits without (real) power limits are bad limits as it leads to overpowered boats.

Joerg

 

[Darin Jordan]

The IMPBA hull size limit is a joke compared to 2006 common hull sizes. First, IMPBA allows S mono hulls for P now - which after all makes some sence as IMPBA also allowed S power for P.... not even talking about hydro where the proposed length limit for all classes is at least 50% longer than my SAW T hydro...
Second, hull sizes limits without (real) power limits are bad limits as it leads to overpowered boats.

Joerg

Joerg... We were running 30"-plus sized monos in P-Mono LAST SEASON with NIMH cells... My O-Mono was 26", compared to 22" for 2005... and it was almost too short for the power... Same with the sport hydros... i.e.: Brian's Phil Thomas Sport 21 on 12-cells... All with Nimh...

WHY??? Because of the motors that became available... NOT the batteries...

So, now the batteries are better, so people will use bigger hulls... then the ESCs will get better, so people will use BIGGER hulls.... then the motors will get better, and still BIGGER hulls.... CAN'T you see the cycle?

And if people aren't smart enough to figure out how to properly power a limited hull size, then so be it... THAT is RACING and all part of the game... and something we deal with RIGHT NOW, Pre-Lipo discussion.

Even with "real" power limits, we need to limit hull sizes...

And... 95% of the people out here aren't concerned about SAW rules... they are concerned about Oval/Offshore racing... NO one in Oval racing is going to stuff 4S into a 22" El Lobo 2 and expect to go in P-Mono with it... even though that might be something they'd try for SAW... You guys have taken SAW racing to the "Specialty" level... to the point where it doesn't really have anything to do with the Oval classes any longer, so perhaps you should champion a set of SAW-Specific rules and then you won't lose sleep at night over some of this stuff....

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Joerg,

It's probably time to let it go don't you think? In IMPBA there are currently no limits other than voltage and NAMBA has a 2P 10K limit. It's in the books now so nothing will be accomplished by hashing it over and over, the deal is done.

Oh BTW: I had absolutely NOTHING to do with NAMBAs rules or vote outcome. LOL, I'm not even a member so I didn't vote! Now who are you and the others going to blame for that? You must have somebody in mind to whip on. :lol:

Paul.

 

[Jeff]

Joerg, if the rule can be changed to 4p it can also be changed to 1p. Don't be so pessimistic all the time.

I only know of one group that uses custom machined props, specialy hand selected motors, tested after tested batteries, specialy engineered and built hulls and fully customized speed controlls. All which is unavailble to thee US racers. So although setting a record is an acomplishment, beating other people with spending is no differant than someone using 2p batteries in my opinion.

Jeff

 

[JfromJAGs]

Yes, I should let off - because the people who wanted to understand already did - and those who don't, will never do until they figure it out themselfs, right Darin et al?

So guys, go play boats and then we'll see by the end of the year.

And for those who need a 200A+ controller for running 2p - remember - get one with big FETs (D2PAC) and good water cooling.

Joerg

 

[JfromJAGs]

I only know of one group that uses custom machined props, specialy hand selected motors, tested after tested batteries, specialy engineered and built hulls and fully customized speed controlls. All which is unavailble to thee US racers. So although setting a record is an acomplishment, beating other people with spending is no differant than someone using 2p batteries in my opinion.

Sorry, but you don't get what's behind setting those SAW records (it's not money - it's time, knowledge, experiece and most of all dedication). Our custom made controllers are cheaper for us than a 40.160. Same for my props, they cost me less than a CMDI prop. It just takes 1000x the time to make that yourself compared to buying stuff. It is not only "unavailble to thee US racers" - it's unavailable to everyone - unless you take the time and figure all this **** out yourself.

And you don't understand what's the difference between someone spending a lot of time and effort vs. making rules which allow double current - and from that makes standard ovel racing expensive for everyone.

Off.

 

[Darin Jordan]

Yes, I should let off - because the people who wanted to understand already did - and those who don't, will never do until they figure it out themselfs, right Darin et al?

Hey Joerg... Take me out of the "don't understand" category, and put me in the "are of differing opinion" category...

It's rediculous for you to keep assuming that those that disagree with your fears, presumptions, and hypothesis are somehow wrong or misinformed... Especially when you keep pointing specifically at me... because I DO understand... You aren't the only one here who has an opinion based on the information available and has made a logical choice on this matter... There are MORE than just YOUR conclusion and you don't have a monopoly on "right" decisions/opinions...

 

[JfromJAGs]

Yes, and earth is a disc.

 

[Jeff]

Yes, and as a NAMBA member you could have put forth a rules proposal at anytime. Please post your rule propsal for your european organizations you have submited.

Jeff

 

[brooks93]

will you guys stop freaking bitching back and forth about whats already done. You are all making FE look like a bunch of cry babys.

I didn't vote either way for the lipos because there where things I didn't like or that where missing but, others did and it passed. Let it go and lets get back to talking about boats.

 

[JfromJAGs]

Jeff:

First, I'm a NAMBA (US) and a Nauticus member (Germany). NAMBA and the Nauticus are members of the NAVIGA, the world organization of model boaters. It's just that the FE part of NAMBA does care for what NAVIGA does.

Second, I did'nt realize NAMBA would jump on the LiPo train that early. It did'nt make sence to me as the technology is not widely tested yet, safty issues have not been solved or considered fully and the initial costs are quite higher compared to NiMH - especially when allowing 2p. If the long term costs will be lower can only be judged after this year is over. What batteries do for hobby pilots does'nt mean it will happen under competition use. I already know how to get at least 20-30% more energy out of a LiPo pack - once. If this is not adressed with rules (and it is'nt !) then the costs will increase dramatically. I don't even know how long they last under normal race use.

Third, my proposals for Naviga electric racing using LiPos has been submitted to the Naviga official about 4-5 months ago - but the switch will not happen soon. The proposal is simple: replace 3 NiMH Sub C cells with one 130g LiPo (max weight). Use 2s for all 7 cell classes, 4s for 12cells and 6s for 20 cells. Stick to the runtimes (5-8min) and check battery voltage before the race (4.2V/cell max) - at least randomly and for everyone in the finals. Same applies for battery weight after the race.

We will allow LiPo's at friendly races (off ranking) or maybe have special LiPo rankings if enough people race it.

 

[Darin Jordan]

I agree with Kelly... Let's get to gathering some PRACTICAL DATA and see what adjustments we need to make to get this better...

Sounds like Naviga is going to benefit greatly in their attempt to "properly" implement Lipos by observing NAMBA racing this year...

Your Welcome...

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Joerg,

If the long term costs will be lower can only be judged after this year is over. What batteries do for hobby pilots does'nt mean it will happen under competition use. I already know how to get at least 20-30% more energy out of a LiPo pack - once. If this is not adressed with rules (and it is'nt !) then the costs will increase dramatically. I don't even know how long they last under normal race use.

Wrong. I have to date 92 cycles on my 10S2P 4350 20C race pack for open mono, that's all last years tuning and racing plus the first race of this year. They preform as new and comparing the numbers of a new set I got this year you can't tell the difference. I don't need any further convincing on wether these cells will last or not. If I would have done the same amount of racing with Nimh cells I would have spent double the amount at least. And if you wish to preheat cells and run them up over 140 be my guest, it's your money.

We'll see what happens next week at the SAWs. I mainly consentrate on oval records because to me it's more challanging and impressive but I will take my oval setups and run them straight line. Big boats will be running 40/160s and small boats Barracuda 125s and other than watercooling everything is off the shelf. I'll also be using POLY-RC 20C 4350 cells in everything. With that type of equipment I should be the last guy any SAW racer should be worried about, right?

Paul.