Paul Pachmayer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
- Messages
- 956
Hi Guys,
I would like to explain why "I" think lipo cells won't be the death of FE racing and also why "I" think it can only help.
First thing you have to understand is how an FE race is run. Up until last year the course size for a FE race was 5 laps on a 10th mile oval. This was fine with the components that were available at the time rules were drafted. With the introduction of high power BL motors, better controllers and higher capacity cells it was quickly understood that the speeds were greatly exceeding the course size, lots of wrecks and upside down boats are quite the norm. The 1/8th mile course was adopted and helped quite a bit on the carnage. There was another upside to the longer course, it was easier on the components because the boats had more time to wind up before entering a corner.
Race day: Fe races consist of 3 rounds per class all run on the same day. It is not uncommon to see an FE racer running 4 to 8 classes A DAY. Now, if your a nitro or gas racer think about that one for a minute. If you were going to a 2 or 3 day race you could end up running 10 to 20 classes! Even though some of the boats would cross over classes you still had quite a few boats in your pit with the support equipment to go along with it. The average race time per heat in the faster classes (including 6 cells) is roughly 70 seconds or less. To run those type of times/speeds you need to pull big amps out of the cells, on average a fast boat will pull 2200 to about 2600mAh out of the batteries in that short period of time. Cell temps of 150 degrees plus is the norm, the fastest guys in the 180 degree range. Simply put the batteries suffer greatly from that abuse and need to be replaced on a regular basis.
I can count on both hands the number of racers nationally that can support the equipment needed to run at the top. Roughly the same number of people actually spend what it takes to travel to the half dozen or so races spread across the country that are held annually. A big race consists of 15 to 30 racers, I would say 22 people being the average attendance. The FE community is so small I can pretty much pick the winners from the sign up sheet before the race even starts. To figure this for yourself all you need to do is look at the last 3 or 4 years of the NAMBA FE Nats, it's the big one for FE and other than 1 Nats held in MI they were smaller than a good club race. District racing or any kind of points series are unheard off. NAMBA is were you go if you want to race FE boats, FE racing in IMPBA is pretty much non existent. These aren't my opinions, this is the way it is.
With the introduction of lipo batteries the game started to change. When the IMPBA allowed FE boats to run in the open classes I and about 6 others jumped on the chance. Granted running a FE powered open class boat is not for everyone cost wise but there were enough guys to make an impact. It didn't take me long to realize the FE community was going about things the wrong way. After attending and racing over 20 nitro/gas events the last couple years I've gained a great respect for the way you guys do things. Nitro and gas racers/events have it together. Things are very organized, run smoothly and have a bunch of competition. Not to say that there haven't been problems at a few races but overall things run good. Oddly enough the nitro and gas crowd accepted and gave more respect to FE racers than we do ourselves. We've been running the lipo batteries "unrestricted" over the last two years. Nothing has got out of control and there haven't been any problems. If some of the fears that the FE community has about lipos we're going to happen I think we would have at least seen something by now. Funny thing is we've self-regulated ourselves, nothing over the top has happened. The other interesting thing that has happened is several nitro/gas clubs have added FE only classes to their regular races, that's above and beyond open class racing. To me that's huge. It tells me there's acceptance and a willingness to allow and or combine fe classes into more racing venues. If you truly are a boat racer how can this be bad? If your District had an active FE club in it and within the district you had a point series, would the nitro/gas clubs be willing to add a couple FE classes to the series? Can you see where this is going now?
For this to actually work it will take a few things. The biggest of which needs to come from the FE side. WE NEED TO QUIT ACTING LIKE WE PLAY WITH BATHTUB TOYS!! The biggest resistance to lipo power is coming from guys that don't even come out of their own back yards. If your one of them and your club want's to run 21 inch boats on 6 cheap sub-C cells who's stopping you? You can do what your club wants but please don't come out and say lipos are the death of FE and you'll quit if lipos are allowed. To me that's a sign that you really aren't an avid boat racer, your more of backyard basher.
Next thing is we need to change the way we race. Run 1 mile races and have full course mills. I don't care if your run a small 10th mile course, do 10 laps, 1/8th mile 8 laps and of course 6 laps on the 1/6th mile course. Also adopt the 5 rounds of racing spread over 2 days like our nitro and gas counterparts. Think about that for a minute. The way FE races are run now if a guy could only afford to run say two classes and both those classes fell on the same day. He would get to race 6 rounds for a total of what, maybe 10 minutes total on water time? He traveled how far and spent what to get there? Is that what you call budget racing? On a two day race why would he bother? Are you starting to understand where this is going? Now if that same guy knew he could race over 2 days and get ten rounds of racing in and the on water time was over doubled it gets a bit more attractive.
Lipo cells give us the opportunity to do these things. A nitro or gas club holding a race doesn't have to change a thing to accommodate a couple FE classes. The club holding the event benefits by more participants. FE racers benefit by having more race venues which right now is a major drawback for an electric boat racer. (the lack of races locally) Running a mile with more rounds also reduces the number of classes a guy has to run to make it worth the while to attend a FE race. Someone could actually run two or three boats and get good at tuning and driving them, have fun and be more competitive WITH LESS CASH OUTLAY. The other benefit of lipos is you can run a bigger boat than what is the norm now. A bigger boat finishes more heats and is easier to drive. Cost wise it's roughly the same. Speeds with lipos will increase, no argument there. But what racer wouldn't want more speed?
Classes need to change. We have WAY too many classes right now. Several are redundant. Right now we have M, N, O, P, Q, S and T plus some specialty classes. Within those classes we have, mono, hydro, sport hydro, OPC tunnel and offshore. Several of the classes run almost identical speeds with similar sized boats, why?
In IMPBA lipos are now legal to run. The rule IS NOT PERFECT but racing in IMPBA is not really happening so my suggestion is this.
For simplicity sake I'll call it class A, B and C and break it down by voltage.
Class A is up to 7.4 nominal volts. Parallel up to 2 packs 10KmAh limit
Class B is up to 18.5 nominal volts. Parallel up to 2 packs 10K limit
Class C is up to 37 volts nominal. Parallel up to 2 packs unlimited capacity.
Obviously motor specs and hull length rules need to be implemented and I think following the basic nitro guidelines for those lengths is appropriate. The idea is to narrow the gap between FE, nitro and to an extent gas powered boats. If we can all run basically the same boats at around the same speeds nobody has to make an special abominations to run what ever power source at any given race. It's not about combining all power sources in one heat, it's about combing all power sources at one race. There will be a certain amount of give and take but if we can all get on the same page nothing but good can become of it. We all benefit as a whole and there are no losers. The RC boating community becomes stronger and resources can be better pooled together.
This is the general idea I have, it's a vision that could be reality if we just take a moment and think about it. Yes, it will be a bit tough at first but with all of us working together it can be done. It's already happening in some areas so I know it's possible if only we could quit whining about it and see the big picture.
Paul.
I would like to explain why "I" think lipo cells won't be the death of FE racing and also why "I" think it can only help.
First thing you have to understand is how an FE race is run. Up until last year the course size for a FE race was 5 laps on a 10th mile oval. This was fine with the components that were available at the time rules were drafted. With the introduction of high power BL motors, better controllers and higher capacity cells it was quickly understood that the speeds were greatly exceeding the course size, lots of wrecks and upside down boats are quite the norm. The 1/8th mile course was adopted and helped quite a bit on the carnage. There was another upside to the longer course, it was easier on the components because the boats had more time to wind up before entering a corner.
Race day: Fe races consist of 3 rounds per class all run on the same day. It is not uncommon to see an FE racer running 4 to 8 classes A DAY. Now, if your a nitro or gas racer think about that one for a minute. If you were going to a 2 or 3 day race you could end up running 10 to 20 classes! Even though some of the boats would cross over classes you still had quite a few boats in your pit with the support equipment to go along with it. The average race time per heat in the faster classes (including 6 cells) is roughly 70 seconds or less. To run those type of times/speeds you need to pull big amps out of the cells, on average a fast boat will pull 2200 to about 2600mAh out of the batteries in that short period of time. Cell temps of 150 degrees plus is the norm, the fastest guys in the 180 degree range. Simply put the batteries suffer greatly from that abuse and need to be replaced on a regular basis.
I can count on both hands the number of racers nationally that can support the equipment needed to run at the top. Roughly the same number of people actually spend what it takes to travel to the half dozen or so races spread across the country that are held annually. A big race consists of 15 to 30 racers, I would say 22 people being the average attendance. The FE community is so small I can pretty much pick the winners from the sign up sheet before the race even starts. To figure this for yourself all you need to do is look at the last 3 or 4 years of the NAMBA FE Nats, it's the big one for FE and other than 1 Nats held in MI they were smaller than a good club race. District racing or any kind of points series are unheard off. NAMBA is were you go if you want to race FE boats, FE racing in IMPBA is pretty much non existent. These aren't my opinions, this is the way it is.
With the introduction of lipo batteries the game started to change. When the IMPBA allowed FE boats to run in the open classes I and about 6 others jumped on the chance. Granted running a FE powered open class boat is not for everyone cost wise but there were enough guys to make an impact. It didn't take me long to realize the FE community was going about things the wrong way. After attending and racing over 20 nitro/gas events the last couple years I've gained a great respect for the way you guys do things. Nitro and gas racers/events have it together. Things are very organized, run smoothly and have a bunch of competition. Not to say that there haven't been problems at a few races but overall things run good. Oddly enough the nitro and gas crowd accepted and gave more respect to FE racers than we do ourselves. We've been running the lipo batteries "unrestricted" over the last two years. Nothing has got out of control and there haven't been any problems. If some of the fears that the FE community has about lipos we're going to happen I think we would have at least seen something by now. Funny thing is we've self-regulated ourselves, nothing over the top has happened. The other interesting thing that has happened is several nitro/gas clubs have added FE only classes to their regular races, that's above and beyond open class racing. To me that's huge. It tells me there's acceptance and a willingness to allow and or combine fe classes into more racing venues. If you truly are a boat racer how can this be bad? If your District had an active FE club in it and within the district you had a point series, would the nitro/gas clubs be willing to add a couple FE classes to the series? Can you see where this is going now?
For this to actually work it will take a few things. The biggest of which needs to come from the FE side. WE NEED TO QUIT ACTING LIKE WE PLAY WITH BATHTUB TOYS!! The biggest resistance to lipo power is coming from guys that don't even come out of their own back yards. If your one of them and your club want's to run 21 inch boats on 6 cheap sub-C cells who's stopping you? You can do what your club wants but please don't come out and say lipos are the death of FE and you'll quit if lipos are allowed. To me that's a sign that you really aren't an avid boat racer, your more of backyard basher.
Next thing is we need to change the way we race. Run 1 mile races and have full course mills. I don't care if your run a small 10th mile course, do 10 laps, 1/8th mile 8 laps and of course 6 laps on the 1/6th mile course. Also adopt the 5 rounds of racing spread over 2 days like our nitro and gas counterparts. Think about that for a minute. The way FE races are run now if a guy could only afford to run say two classes and both those classes fell on the same day. He would get to race 6 rounds for a total of what, maybe 10 minutes total on water time? He traveled how far and spent what to get there? Is that what you call budget racing? On a two day race why would he bother? Are you starting to understand where this is going? Now if that same guy knew he could race over 2 days and get ten rounds of racing in and the on water time was over doubled it gets a bit more attractive.
Lipo cells give us the opportunity to do these things. A nitro or gas club holding a race doesn't have to change a thing to accommodate a couple FE classes. The club holding the event benefits by more participants. FE racers benefit by having more race venues which right now is a major drawback for an electric boat racer. (the lack of races locally) Running a mile with more rounds also reduces the number of classes a guy has to run to make it worth the while to attend a FE race. Someone could actually run two or three boats and get good at tuning and driving them, have fun and be more competitive WITH LESS CASH OUTLAY. The other benefit of lipos is you can run a bigger boat than what is the norm now. A bigger boat finishes more heats and is easier to drive. Cost wise it's roughly the same. Speeds with lipos will increase, no argument there. But what racer wouldn't want more speed?
Classes need to change. We have WAY too many classes right now. Several are redundant. Right now we have M, N, O, P, Q, S and T plus some specialty classes. Within those classes we have, mono, hydro, sport hydro, OPC tunnel and offshore. Several of the classes run almost identical speeds with similar sized boats, why?
In IMPBA lipos are now legal to run. The rule IS NOT PERFECT but racing in IMPBA is not really happening so my suggestion is this.
For simplicity sake I'll call it class A, B and C and break it down by voltage.
Class A is up to 7.4 nominal volts. Parallel up to 2 packs 10KmAh limit
Class B is up to 18.5 nominal volts. Parallel up to 2 packs 10K limit
Class C is up to 37 volts nominal. Parallel up to 2 packs unlimited capacity.
Obviously motor specs and hull length rules need to be implemented and I think following the basic nitro guidelines for those lengths is appropriate. The idea is to narrow the gap between FE, nitro and to an extent gas powered boats. If we can all run basically the same boats at around the same speeds nobody has to make an special abominations to run what ever power source at any given race. It's not about combining all power sources in one heat, it's about combing all power sources at one race. There will be a certain amount of give and take but if we can all get on the same page nothing but good can become of it. We all benefit as a whole and there are no losers. The RC boating community becomes stronger and resources can be better pooled together.
This is the general idea I have, it's a vision that could be reality if we just take a moment and think about it. Yes, it will be a bit tough at first but with all of us working together it can be done. It's already happening in some areas so I know it's possible if only we could quit whining about it and see the big picture.
Paul.
