IMPBA Rule Change

[Chris Wood]

not to stirr the pie BUT..

I have seen, with my own eyes. two db meters side by side. same brand, model ect.

metering a boat and get TWO different readings.. now that raises a ? WHO'S IS RIGHT???

I know it may not be THAT big of a deal. but if a guy is racing and going for a win and one meter says 95 and the other says 97, well i wouldn't want to be the guy that has to make the call...

chris

 

[Don Ferrette]

not to stirr the pie BUT..
I have seen, with my own eyes. two db meters side by side. same brand, model ect.

metering a boat and get TWO different readings.. now that raises a ?  WHO'S IS RIGHT???

I know it may not be THAT big of a deal. but if a guy is racing and going for a win and one meter says 95 and the other says 97, well i wouldn't want to be the guy that has to make the call...

chris

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Chris you have a very good point & if I were in that situation I'd add them together then divide by two. However any decent quality dB meter has a calibration function & this needs to be checked periodically. The biggest thing about all of this is EXACTLY like Mark so accurately said, this is not about "catching" the offenders, it's about reducing the noise & attempting to preserve this hobby we all enjoy. What have we learned so far? That just a muffler rule doesn't work & a standard needs to be set and the standard will over time need to continue downward. We have just begun to scratch the surface to learn quiet is not slow. We will continue to hit bumps & have to fill "loopholes" along the way but we'll get there. All I have to do is think back a couple of seasons ago when two guys named Kjell & Tore' came over here from Norway. They are both multiple times NAVIGA champions & race with an 80dB limit that has no warnings, you go over you're dq'd. These two guys came with some super quiet boats and put a butt whoopin' on some pretty well known fast guys. B)

 

[Ron Olson]

I just happened to take mine along with me to the IMPBA record trials in Flint and compared my Radio Shack digital dB meter against theirs. I got the very same readings as they did. If you have more than one at a race, compare them at the same spot.

Doesn't the IMPBA rulebook say taking the dB measurement at 50 feet out and 4 feet high using the "A" slow reading?

 

[David Homer]

I've been watching this trhread for a while now, and the previous post raises a point I haven't seen raised here yet.... how to set the meter!!! We should specify "A" or "C" weighting, fast or slow response.. it makes a difference!! It might account for the above noted discrepancy.....

 

[Chris Wood]

good point, is it a scale or c scale, i have been using c scale?? not sure if it is right or not...

chris

 

[Don Ferrette]

good point, is it a scale or c scale, i have been using c scale?? not sure if it is right or not...
chris

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Read your rulebook folks-

8. IMPBA Noise Rule

At all IMPBA sanctioned events all boats MUST meet the following conditions, and

boat operator accept the included mandates.

a. A commercially available noise measurement device (Radio Shack or

equivalent) must be used. The noise measurement device will be set to the "A"

weighted measuring scale, fast response.

b. The maximum allowed db level for IMPBA Sanctioned events will be 95db.

c. Measurements must be made from the shoreline area, between the starting line

and buoy #1. The measuring device will be set at a minimum height of 4' to 6'

above the ground, with the device pointed approximately 90 degrees to the

running path of the boats 25 feet back from the waters edge. Stable mounting

such as a tripod is strongly recommended. Care should be taken to assure the

operator of the measuring device is in a safe location.

 

[Mark Bullard]

deleted.

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Jose it is on page K-10 on IMPBA Approved Courses

IMPBA Approved Courses

General

1. The area between the turns shall be referred to as the front and back "straights" or

"chutes" respectively.

2. The section with the course marker buoys is referred to as "within the course" or as the

"infield".

3. The buoys at the far end of the chutes are referred to as the "Entrance Buoys" to the

turns. The buoys at the head or start of the chutes are referred to as the "Exit Buoys" for

the turns.

4. For scoring and course reference purposes, all marker buoys shall be numbered

consecutively in the direction of the course starting with the first buoy to the left of the

Start/Finish buoy and ending with the buoy immediately to the right of the Start/Finish

buoy. The Start/Finish buoy shall carry no number identification. Straightaway buoys

will be added to the 1/3-mile oval course only. The front straightaway buoy will be

located halfway between the start/finish line (center of course) and buoy one; the back

straightaway buoy will be located halfway between the center of course and buoy four.

5. For ease of driving, it is imperative that the course be laid out as nearly parallel to the

shore being run from as possible.

a. It is strongly recommended that the front chute (between buoys 1 & 6) be no closer

than fifty (50) feet to shore for safety reasons.

b. Under no circumstances can the front chute be more than one hundred and fifty

(150) feet from shore.

6. To establish IMPBA records, the course must be set up exactly as shown. Straightaway

buoys are not required for records.

 

[carlnoki]

On one of Don's last postings, i heartily agree with the continuation of the lowering of the DB limit as time goes by.

Getting to 80 DB's was fun when we were stationed in Germany along time ago.

It can be and is regularly done in the rest of the world.

I also agree with just about everyone that the DB rule SHOULD HAVE been set up for DB only and not useing this that and the other thing to get it there.

Back on the offset stinger subject just for a sec.......

I used it in conjunction WITH a silenced pipe ( took it apart, plugged the back of the pipe, remounted the stinger aprox 1/4" up from the back, then put the can back on the pipe assembly.) and got the boats down to 78 DB in doing so in Germany in preperation for the first World hydro championships held in Ostiglia Italy in 1986. (I WAS THE FIRST AMERICAN to race at the World Champs)

anyways, we all need to get the DB down to where IMPBA wants it to ba and how we do it is up to everyone that races and runs model boats.

just my 2 cents worth is all folks.

later guys

carl cisneros

 

[bzubee]

Allan rule changes as stated in th erulebook take effect in March! SO you only have to download once a year the section you mention was an oversite and the problem that caused it has been corrected.

While we are on the discussion of noise rules why is it that NAMBA can get by with this for their nosie rule and IMPBA has to get so specific for the rule. This is quoted straight from the NAMBA rule book page 29 "All Boats must meet a maximum of 92db at 50 feet from the shore. FOr correct readings no obstructions will be between the meter and shorline, meter should not be under an awningor overhang and meter should not be handheld.

Where are all of the lawyer for this rule?

so Jose. Am i supposed to go and download the rulebook everytime there might be a rule change (that would be a full time job plus some). It needs to be in the roostertail or every member needs to recieve an email telling them what to to download. I dont spend much if any time at IMPBA net nor should I have to to know what the latest rules are. If i download and read the roosterrials and still dont have updates for my rule book, something is wrong and in this case I don't think it has anything to do with me.Allen

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[Buckshot]

Allan rule changes as stated in th erulebook take effect in March!  SO you only have to download once a year the section you mention was an oversite and the problem that caused it has been corrected.  While we are on the discussion of noise rules why is it that NAMBA can get by with this for their nosie rule and IMPBA has to get so specific for the rule.  This is quoted straight from the NAMBA rule book page 29 "All Boats must meet a maximum of 92db at 50 feet from the shore.  FOr correct readings no obstructions will be between the meter and shorline, meter should not be under an awningor overhang and meter should not be handheld. 

Where are all of the lawyer for this rule?

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No Comment on the Elbow?

-Buck-

 

[Preston_Hall]

Preston, how do you know that this boats did not have internal stingers. How do you know that there's no canister inside this deflectors. Did you do the tech inspection? The bottom line is that this boats were very quiet. You owe an apology here. You are way out of line here posting pictures and making accusations of people that you don't even know.

Piston1,Take a deep breath dude. You should read more carefully as Mark B. is the one who stated what was on the pipe. He even admits to the loop hole, which I have to agree is there.

I love loop holes. Yes the elbow is a offset stinger. And it was only on a 21 motor.And if we had a db only rule there would not be anything on the end of the pipe.................We had it pointing straight up

Preston you better change the flyer in you race or accept deflectors similar to the INTERNATS. From what Mark says, it appears that IMPBA has ruled on this issue. Anything else you decide doing would be a violation of the official IMPBA interpretation.

I may accept it if the deflector was longer. But once again you need to read because the rule book says the CD is the law. I am the CD.

Anyway........................

I really don't see anything wrong with having an educated discussion but when you have people interjecting opinions and ideas when they do not have an understanding of the rules it just gets rediculous. I see Mark, Joe, and Don (maybe some others) have a good understanding of the rules and I can certainly respect any stands or loop holes they want to point out. I just think that this was the wrong way for the President to prove a point.

I do not mind admitting when wrong either. Has anybody looked up the definition of offset? I did; 6. (Mech.) An abrupt bend in an object, as a rod, by which one part is turned aside out of line, but nearly parallel, with the rest; the part thus bent aside. So it seems that all my years of "offsetting" objects in AutoCad may not have been offset at all and the IMPBA rule book has poor wording in this case. Therefore, Mark and Bill did not interpret or offset (bend) the rules at all, although, I still think the deflector needed to be a little longer.

 

[AWaddle322]

It has always amazed me how some people will contradict there selves and not even now they are doing it.

If it is truely about queting boats down then why is there a problem with having the muffler rule to. Sure 20 boats can pass the 95 db with nothing but you have already been required to buy your mufflying device when the rules were simply a muffler and by pulling the muffler of are you truely trying to quite boats. WHY MAKE ANY BOAT LOUDER THAN IT HAS TO BE???

I perosannly don't care what the rules are but I think that everyone needs to now what the rules are. At the internats our tent was told that some of our boats were above the legal level while they never were above the legal as the rule stated but some people did not understand what the rule stated. Also the persone that was pointing this out pretty well can recite you any rule in our rule book.

Mark,

I do see problemwith the varible you mention with the distance from the meter to lane 1. Possible cure maybe to have a set distance from lane 1 to the meter . In some pounds this will not work because of the surroundings but it should be possible to have a chart that could make it possible. I think that it is simply mathematics. Example and i am just guessing at this formula but i do believe reading that for every time distance doubles you loss 3 db. so lets say at huntsville you are 150' from bouy1 and at Evanville the furtheresy you can go without getting into the street is 75'. the rule states that at 150' that you can be 95 db and using the formula a boat could actually read 98 db at evansville. writting a rule like this should really equal out alot of this variablein distance from bouy1. There is some mathematical way to do this I am just not sure of the formulla but I am sure Doc could get it for us. This would not take all variables out but I do believe this would be a much fairer rule than what is actuaaly writen.

I for one don't care what the rules are. Just let me know what they are and lets go RACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bill, Since I have been the IMPBA i have bought a new rule book every year including the one that i got from John this year at our race that was supposed to have every update through our memorial day race. Guess what it is not in there either. Rule book updates need to to mailed to every member. There are simply to many members that don't have internet access and while those that don't have internet access can probablyget a copy of roostertails brought to them from a club member or friend it would be to easy for the club or person to forget the rule update change. If you want people to know whwt the rules are you have to get it in there hands and not counton the internet for everything. We as impba members were provided with a rule book and it is the responsibility of the IMPBA office to get rule book updates to each member and I want my updates that fit the rule book that we were provided with. Also you stated how we needed to print the online rule book because it was bigger, well i dont buy that either because if a person cant read the rule book because of eye sight than he probably does not need to be racing model boats anyway.

Allen Waddle

 

[bzubee]

As I stated Allan I had very little control over the the rulebooks last year this year we attempted to ensure all changes were included but missed one. At least you got a rulebook better than you had gotten in the past correct? We plan on posting the changes only for next year on the web site along with the section of the rulebook. We will try to post 2 sizes o fthe changes one full page size and the other the half page size. I would suggest if you really want to read the rule book print off a full size version it is much easier to read and keep up with, plus you have room to make notes and suggested changes. We had an enormous amount of corrections and probelms this year to contend with and I apoligize for missing some areas butr we did the best we could with the time that we had available. Next year will be better yet!!

As for the noise issue the rule has only been in effect since this last March 2005 why not give it a chance to filter down and work?

IF you are on the brink of the Noise limit be prepared to make improvemnets if required. It is very similar to pushing the start line if you are consistantly close to being over be prepared to get called over once in a while. As for the off set stingers I had 4 different muffler types to play with if I needed to but the engine /pipe combo was way under the noise limit at 3 different sites this year in my speedmaster mono. The way I see it is the goal is to run th eboats with less noise we have accomplished that look at Jerry's statement his comparison between the 2000 Internats and the 2005 Internats.

Bill Zuber

 

[Marty Davis]

I tried to get a rule passed when I was on the IMPBA Board. I just looked, and the basis of the rule that I proposed was posted at: http://rcboat.com/noise_policy.pdf

There are so many different orginizations who have had noise abatement policies in effect for YEARS. No reason to try to "re-invent the wheel". I got all the data from each of the orginizations trying not to miss any important things. My proposal was for 92db, but could be submited for whatever level.

Maybe this will be of help to you in submission of a rule change.

Marty Davis

 

[Buckshot]

As for the noise issue the rule has only been in effect since this last March 2005 why not give it a chance to filter down and work? IF you are on the brink of the Noise limit be prepared to make improvemnets if required.  It is very similar to pushing the start line if you are consistantly close to being over be prepared to get called over once in a while.  As for the off set stingers I had 4 different muffler types to play with if I needed to but the engine /pipe combo was way under the noise limit at 3 different sites this year in my speedmaster mono.  The way I see it is the goal is to run th eboats with less noise we have accomplished that look at Jerry's statement his comparison between the 2000 Internats and the 2005 Internats.

Bill Zuber

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So your saying that you don't have to run a muffler if your under the limit? :unsure:

Right? :huh:

-Buck-

 

[Buckshot]

I tried to get a rule passed when I was on the IMPBA Board.  I just looked, and the basis of the rule that I proposed was posted at:  http://rcboat.com/noise_policy.pdf
There are so many different orginizations who have had noise abatement policies in effect for YEARS.  No reason to try to "re-invent the wheel".  I got all the data from each of the orginizations trying not to miss any important things.  My proposal was for 92db, but could be submited for whatever level. 

Maybe this will be of help to you in submission of a rule change.

Marty Davis

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AND.....

This one says that you have to run a muffler. :unsure:

Right? :blink:

-Buck- :huh:

 

[Buckshot]

I for one don't care what the rules are. Just let me know what they are and lets go RACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Allen Waddle

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Now where talking!!

Just bring all your crap to the pond so you can put on what ever the CD at that race wants you to run. :lol:

-Buck-

 

[bzubee]

Thanks Marty I will pass this onto Equi for possible use if we need to redo the rule as I stated in the prior post that the exisisting rule has only benn in effect since March 2005 members need to give it a chance to work if NAMBA can get by with the simple rule they have we should have no problem compling with our rule and from the readings Equi took at this years Internats the rule is working.

I tried to get a rule passed when I was on the IMPBA Board.  I just looked, and the basis of the rule that I proposed was posted at:  http://rcboat.com/noise_policy.pdf
There are so many different orginizations who have had noise abatement policies in effect for YEARS.  No reason to try to "re-invent the wheel".  I got all the data from each of the orginizations trying not to miss any important things.  My proposal was for 92db, but could be submited for whatever level. 

Maybe this will be of help to you in submission of a rule change.

Marty Davis

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[bzubee]

Read the rule posted in the rulebook on the IMPBA web site and comply with it.

 

[AWaddle322]

Read the rule posted in the rulebook on the IMPBA web site and comply with it.

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And just were might we find this rule on the web page.

Allen