IMPBA Outboard question

[user 115]

Edited for Education.

Charley

 

[VansRacing]

I would like to see a 40 sport tunnel class modeled after what is currently working so well for the 20 Sport tunnel class. You have to admit that it is simple, low tech, non bias and quick. I want to see as even of a playing field as possible to ensure the growth of the class also, but with the current system working as well as it does, I agree with Grim. Go / no go system & external stock appearing.

Change the name...I am not sure I would do that just yet, if at all.

My question at this point is: How are IMPBA clubs regulating the 40 Sport Tunnel classes now? Is there a set of go/no go gauges being used at any of these events? I can't remember anyone asking to check our 40 sport tunnels lately.

It seems as if Tommy Lee or Karl Strum had some go / no go gauges at a club race in Georiga about 6 or 7 years ago. If I am not mistaken, I remember that everybody had their engines checked, 20 & 40's. Maybe Rod Geraghty can find out something about these from Tommy and who has them now.

I am in favor of what the majority wants but to start with, lets keep it as simple as possible and watch it's progress then, after the class builds if the go /no-go system is challenged, we can vote on it from there.

-Carl,

 

[piper_chuck]

For those interested, I created a poll to let people voice their opinions anonymously. Click here to open the thread containing the poll

 

[DON MAHER]

KEEP IT SIMPLE

KEEP IT STOCK.

IF YOU THINK SOMEONE IS CHEATING, PROTEST...............

DON

 

[VansRacing]

The poll is cool but is it really a good sample of the sport tunnel population? You will find out what the guys on IW want but does our population speak for the intire IMPBA members?

Think about this as an option, when we get this class built back up, (and we will) we could later write the rules to state that there are two tech options for the sport tunnel classes that the host club can choose from.

1) Box Stock w/ complete tear downs, tools and a pre-appointed tech comittee etc.

2) The Go / No-Go gauge system.

The host club would make their choice known on the entry form before the race so that everyone would know what to expect. This way, small clubs that have limited resorces and members or clubs that may be predominately lets say gas boats can choose what may suit there club best.

If given only one chioce like the Box Stock rule, clubs like this may frown on adding the sport tunnel classes due to it requiring so much more from their officials and time from their already busy race schedule and for a class that they may have very little intrest in or knoledge of. Where as the Go-No Go system would be a very painless and simple chioce for them.

If you know in advance what rules the host club is going to hold you to "BOX STOCK" rules or the "GO / NO-GO" system, then conform to that before hand and RACE. This may be a way to end this controversy over what method to use to regulate the Sport Tunnel Class in the future.

-Carl,

 

[piper_chuck]

Nope, IW does not cover the entire IMPBA membership. However, what I discovered in the other thread, and from some people emailed me, but chose to not participate in the discussion after seeing the abuse I was getting, is that there are many out there who want stock classes. If the trend of votes on IW shows a clear preference, as it did for Sport 20, I think that should be enough for the powers-that-be in IMPBA to get out and understand why this is so, and to do something to accomodate the desires of the members. Unfortunately, from what I've seen, every time this comes up, a few individuals attempt to beat the stock advocates into submission. So far this thread has not gone that way, I hope it stays that way, perhaps other stock advocates will feel it's safe to come out of hiding.

I see your point about 2 different ways of teching the engine, but if the rules are written permitting either box stock or anything (internal) goes with a go/no go gauge we will end up with 2 incompatible sets of engines, stock and hidden modifications. Wouldn't it be better (simpler) to define the class up as box stock and then allow the individual club to decide what level of enforcement they will use? If they are worried about the complexity of a tear down, their flier says they will use a go/no go guage. If they have the time and energy, they could enforce a tear down. And if cheating becomes a real problem, they could also have a claim rule. This level of choice, left up to the hosting club, could all work just fine with rules stipulating that all engines are supposed to be box stock.

If an individual club decides that they will allow mods, that's fine for them. Before they take this step outside the rules, they will have to understand the consequences. Their engines will no longer be legal and they will risk disqualification if they go to another club's race. People from other clubs with true stock engines also may decide to not bother attending their races if they know that the modified engines are creating an unfair advantage. As others have said many times, with proper trim and good driving, stock engines are quite competitive. If this is true, there should be no need for internal modifications.

The attraction of a stock class is that it lets beginners and people on a limited budget pay a finite amount of money for their engine and know that setup and driving skills are the things they need to acquire to compete. Under the Sport 20 rules, a person could lose to someone with equal setup and driving skills merely because the other person spent more $ by sending his engine to someone who knows the secret tweaks that are needed to make it scream.

 

[Grimracer]

One thing is for sure.. Im open to what the members of the IMPBA want.. The reason i have been chosen to help as OBD for the IMPBA is that the tunnel racers felt they needed a voice. I might get a tad to opinionated but they got what they wanted...?

Im willing to listen.. but i hope you will be willing to hear what i have to say too.. For those of you that have never taken on the position of IMPBA OBD (some on here have) you have NO CLUE.... really.. its not a dictatership.. We / I am here to help IN THE BEST INTEREST of IMPBA and its members.

You have my opinion on this matter. Its up to the body of racers to decide what they want. Im cool with what they decide.. I feel the best i can do is try to guide on my past experiences.

Thanks

Grimracer

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

ALL STOCK ENGINES ARE NOT EQUAL

It has been my experience in racing stock model outboards since 1975 that there sometimes is a difference in stock engines - especially from K&B.

Back in 1991/92 I had a K&B 3.5 OB that was "one sweet" engine. I won 3.5 Stock at the 1991 APBA Nationals and Mark Anderson took the same boat/engine and won 3.5 Stock at the Canadian Nationals. The same boat/engine won 3.5 Stock ath the 1992 APBA Nats with my son Paul driving. Then it "went away."

At a District 8 race about 10 or so years back, one of our racers had a 7.5 K&B engine that was just "screaming." He had 5 mph on every other boat in the class. We all figured he had to be cheating, so the engine was protested and torn down. Mark Anderson did the inspection. Mark could find nothing about the engine that wasn't stock.

In all the years we've raced stock outboard here in District 8, I can only remember two times when engines were protested. Besides the one mentioned previously, I had a 3.5 protested after a race back around 1988.. It was an engine sent to me by Bobby Tom when he was with K&B. Inadvertently(according to Bobby) he sent me a prototype engine rather than a production engine. My son, Paul, was actually running the boat that day and we lost the points he'd earned because the engine wasn't stock.

The "engine gurus" can make stock engines perform amazingly well. I've attended NAMBA Nationals where I couldn't believe how well some stock engines were running. I've also served on the inspection committee and looked at those same stock engines. They were inspected by very knowledgeable model boaters and found to be stock. In stock class racing, hull setup and propellers are important performance keys.

Just running a box stock engine does not "level the playing water."

JD

 

[VansRacing]

I think we agree for the most part and my intentions are to support the majority on this no matter how it goes, full tear down or go / no gauges. I do hope that when the time comes down the road, to see a middle ground rule that will satisfy at least most sport racers.

Let me say this for the people that think that internal engine modifications gives an unfair advantage. I just got off the phone with Mike Talley. Mike said that he had just recieved in the mail, his certificate for his 20 outboard Sport Tunnel, 2 lap, 1/16th mile oval record. This record was set with a box stock O/S outboard engine just a few weeks ago in Huntsville Alabama.

There may be some people out there that don't believe that his engine is box stock but it is true. If internal modifications would have gotten that record any lower, we would have cut the kazoo out of it (because it is allowed) to get the record as low as possible the first time. Going to out of town record trials is not cheap!

Nov. the 11th thru the 13th, we will be returning to Huntsville to attempt to drop this record again and given the right wind conditions, we will. Now, my point here is, if anybody wants to see inside this engine, be at Huntsville after the record trials is over and we will completely tear this engine down and hand you the pieces to review. There are no modifications. It is just that fast box stock.

My point here is, this is the fastest 20 sport tunnel ever recorded to date and it is completely box stock. So, (I am not trying to hurt anyone feelings here) but what is the deal? Do sport engine internal modifications do you any good anyway? Based on what I have learned....no. Not at all.

Who can argue this fact? What are you really going to be accomplishing by having a full tear down when a box stock engine is the fastest 20 sport engine there has ever been?

Oh, one more 20 sport "box stock" record:

20 Sport Tunnel SAW, taken by Eric Betty, Huntsville Alabama the same weekend. Box stock engine. Found on EBay... It even had a full length skeg!

-SportRacer,

 

[Grimracer]

Well said Carl,

In 2004 i won the Sport Tunnel class at the Internats.. The motor.. A bone stock K+Bss that was GIVEN TO ME FOR FREE.. True... The darn thing did not cost me a penny...

As i have stated many times before.. Hull and Prop are EVERYTHING. Motor? Thats what the guys go to blame at least those that do not understand.

Grim

 

[user 115]

I've ben educated and all for the Go-No-Go rule.

Charley

 

[legendscar24]

To monitor the class is pretty easy, in NAMBA I was the district outboard chairman, at the end of racing I would

have the CD inform the Stock tunnel guys what was going to be checked, the item checked was decided before the races started that day, he would not tell anyone including myself, as I raced stock tunnel as well, at the end of the day we would inspect what he felt needed to be checked, we got the specs from the engines sheet that comes from the manufacturer, and used that as a base guide, All boats were inpounded at the end of the day so normally the stock tunnel heat was the last race of the day, we never caught anyone cheating and it made for some great close racing. I am not comparing NAMBA to IMPBA saying one is better than the other, this is just a guide for anyone intetested. It does take a little work but it was well worth it and rarely did we have a comlaint.

 

 

 

Mike Hoffman.

 

[Mike Larson]

All right, Chuck, ya brought me out from hidin...... again, thisll be like beating a hornets nest! Let me put a little novice perspective on all you tunnel gurus out there, and ill give ya that, there are some great ones here...... ( course, just mention the word stock, sport, tunnel, you know) Kudos to you Carl for getting that tight motor, keep her oiled she'll last a while...( till the sleeve unchromes) . Ive had a couple along the way, too. 3 years ago when i began my illustrious racing career, I paid my dues, took the ol aeromarine preditor/k/b/8906 to the races and, got my ass stomped consistently...... hence, showing up under the assumption I had my sht wired tight enough to maybe place..... not. Granted, I made a lot of novice mistakes my first year, and still am, I assumed ( catch this word) I mighta had a chance....... Learned along the way, what the exact meaning of the "sport" tunnel was, like, you know, you can soup motors to the moon, within go no go rules, ( winner? no, but it may help), regardless, and Im not sour bout bein beat, or winning,(the loser always bitches the winners cheatin, my ass) point; I started racing sport tunnel because I thought i could compete...... you know, bought me an ole k/b from the LHS and a plastic hotshot kit, and hey, they race these boats places.... here i go! Not. Now, to jerrys case in point: All stock motors are not created equal, is right... to further my sport tunnel career, I built a completely bone stock villian/k/b8907 for my next ( last) years lesson at the race circuit, and you novice cats catch this..... Through a total summer of trimming the hull down to micro increments, a sweet prop, and a lotta time I was able to achieve a competetive race boat,.... I mean seriously competetive.... for sport class,... anyway. Never did throw 60% to it........ It has since gone away,( actually I grenaded it) I lost the setup, and will probably never achieve the boat it was again.... Dont know if i want to invest the time into tryin for it again, a one in a million motor? who knows? Point: I built/trimmed/tested/paddled after/trimmed/tested for months to get the boat right, just to see if I could keep up in sport class with a completly stock motor,meticulous set up, and a good prop, and, if, you have the time and a lotta patience, It can be done! OR...... send your motor to your favorite engine builder, pay the money, and, assume then you may have a chance....... So, the 7.5 guys in the new classes will have to decide if they want to invest time, or money into racing a sport 40 tunnel class, ill definitely gaurantee ya, itll be the same as the 3.5 class.. on you, chuck, your point is at my pond this minute.... two newbies, ie; hotshot/OS show at the pond this year, they ran exactly two sundays, after they saw what my buddies modded villian/kb sport boat and my nova/leecraft would do.... they, to me ,apparantly gave up, as they havent been heard from since....( actually, ive set a coupla cats up, too, and they too gave up) dont know, to me, money=speed=assuming you may have a chance at winning a race or two.... average joe bag o donuts aint gonna do it..... they'll quit before theyre 20 grand in like I am.... Course, my racing career's over, now... much like many I know, Dealing with the BS just isnt worth it.... Went to Nats just to see where on the bar i was at, and, my boats'll hang.... Im almost happy again...... you guys race all ya want, fight all ya want,... mod, cut, spend all ya want, how bad do you actually need the plastic plaque to put on your wall? Or, are you just racing for fun? Hijacked the total 7.5 theory of this thread, which, is moot to me anyway.... important maybe to a freind of mine.... but, 7.5 sport tunnel will be just as unbalanced and outta control as 3.5 is if it even gets off the ground again.... so, good luck fellow tunnel hullers, just keep it up, and youll run at the pond by yourself like I do. Trust me, youll enjoy it. Let the games begin....... mike

 

[Grimracer]

To monitor the class is pretty easy, in NAMBA I was the district outboard chairman, at the end of racing I would

have the CD inform the Stock tunnel guys what was going to be checked, the item checked was decided before the races started that day, he would not tell anyone including myself, as I raced stock tunnel as well, at the end of the day we would inspect what he felt needed to be checked, we got the specs from the engines sheet that comes from the manufacturer, and used that as a base guide, All boats were inpounded at the end of the day so normally the stock tunnel heat was the last race of the day, we never caught anyone cheating and it made for some great close racing. I am not comparing NAMBA to IMPBA saying one is better than the other, this is just a guide for anyone intetested. It does take a little work but it was well worth it and rarely did we have a comlaint.

 

 

 

Mike Hoffman.

Mike,

Please lets try for a "no yelling" on this board approch..

Thanks

Mike Z

 

[VansRacing]

I look forward to seeing this class grow. There are already a few 40 sport tunnels running again in this area. Starting this spring, we will support the class from our area and it sounds like Mark Hopper and his guys are planing to bring some of their 40 sport O/B tunnel boats out.

Mark Hopper and I feel the same way about this. He and I both remember how much close racing and fun it was. I believe 40 Sport O/B tunnel was Tommy Lee's favorite class. Tommy pushed Sport tunnels and was a loud voice for all our O/B tunnel classes back when outboards were not even allowed to race for US-1.

Things have changed quite a bit for outboards.

-Carl,

 

[Grimracer]

at the end of the day we would inspect what he felt needed to be checked,

 

 

Mike Hoffman.

This looks like a huge “potential” issue.. This scares the Be geezers out of me.. I would not want to be on either end of this...

Who on here wants to be singled out.. Anybody... or maybe a few of you would like to be singled out? How about singling anybody out.... Anybody want that job?

Yikes.

Not saying that what was done was wrong, just scary.

At this years IMPBA Internats we had a sport tunnel pre-race inspection. Then, and all racers knew this going in, the go no gauge would come out checking the top three boats after each heat. The person inspecting the boats (me in this case) pulled he top three boats from the water after the heat before the pit man or driver had a chance to touch the boat. Simple and done.. No bitching, no arguing and no BS.. just done..

It worked very well.. There might be other ways to do this but from the reactions i got from the racers it was well received.

ROCK ON

Grim

 

[piper_chuck]

at the end of the day we would inspect what he felt needed to be checked,

 

 

Mike Hoffman.

This looks like a huge “potential” issue.. This scares the Be geezers out of me.. I would not want to be on either end of this...

Yup. If any inspections are to be done they should happen based on a clearly communicated standard, such as the top 3 finishers that you described, not the whim of an individual.

 

[VansRacing]

Are all of you guys tried of my comments yet? DON'T ANSWER THAT! LOL

We need to establish master specs for the 40 Sport engine and get something to initally regulate the class.

1) Max Carb bore.

2) Max Exhaust dia. for the old style 4-hole exhaust lower units.

3) Max Exhaust dia. for the new style 2-hole canister exhaust lower units.

Then the typical bore and stroke limits etc. and get something in writing so that when spring arrives, we will not be in a panic to get a base line to follow. I will do what ever it takes to make this happen.

I am open to suggestions.

-Carl,

 

[Don Ferrette]

On a related note, there's a group in District 12 that are working on getting a stock class going for gas boats. They have recognized that it's really hard for a beginner, or someone with limited funds, to be competitive. It seems that as gas takes off, the $240 price of a G260 is skyrocketing due to people trying to out mod each other. Sound familiar? Last I heard this new class will have a claim rule. Someone who wanted to challenge an engine would pay a fee ($10 I think). If the engine proved to be stock, the owner gets the $10. If it was modified, the challenger gets the engine. This kind of rule would be a serious deterrant against running a modified engine.

This is now reality at the ODMBA club level for 2006, voted on and passed overwhelmingly, it is called stock gas mono. B)

 

[legendscar24]

Wow alot of great ideas from alot of you guys, Grim I don't know what you mean by yelling, I changed the font size to make it easy to read maybe to big... did I scare ya?? Sorry,.As far as being singled out that was not the intention, we as a group would discuss what we felt were issues, things were decided before the event and not disclosed until after so you didnt have guys running a fire breathing dragon and then in the last heat swap out to a legal engine(this is for the stock class only), it has happened I had guys tell me about what they used to do and how they cheated, years before I was helping out. The teardown was either a complete teardown and an impartial tech guy who would measure, or we would spot check items at random to keep people on their toes and they never really knew what was going to be checked, and everyone in the class tore down it was not just a singled out few. The main thing is to keep communication open in the class, establish a non complicated rule structure, and stick to it and make everyone play be the same rules. The class was really fun which is what model boating is ment to be. Anyone here race IMPBA from the Dallas area???

Mike