I'M gonna get slammed

[ClayGlover]

If Stu sold a 20 Hydro, no offense to Jon - but I would run one of Stu's boats rather than the Warlok that I got from Jon.

hmmm, man that's harsh Jay. :huh: since Stu Barr doesn't make a 20 shooter to compare to, what is the basis of your opinion of a Stu 20 vs a warlock 20? the speculation of possible changes Stu may add to the smaller 20 size hull for additional performance? you don't mean differences in the 2 builders craftsmanship abilities? ouch

 

[bbhawker]

MAC engines made by CMB, Irwins nitro 2000 engines made by Rossi? I guess whats good for one is good for the others. Boats: Who can actually say that their boat is an original? Is a leecraft, dumas, villain, magnum, newbie craft. I'm sure there are more I haven't named. Some want to say ,magnum is a leecraft, or even a nova is a newbie craft. The bottom line is 95% of winning is the driver not the boat. I have no doubt there are several drivers out there that could win with what ever you gave them to drive. Whether it's rcboat or intlwaters the post that get made are a shame. No wonder no one wants to give a lot of help or input, they might get slammed.

Brad

 

[warlokboats]

clay

i dont think jay means anything by it. i would also buy a stu 20 boat. then i would not have to make it. but in all seriousness stu is a great builder and i only have about 4 yrs.

i will brag alittle here. i hit about 10-15 bouys last year and never damaged my boat. maybe a scuff on the paint but nothing else. as for stu building a 20 boat i think he is. he has a good grasp on brads boat. he has helped him quite a bit. i also "THINK" stu is making alot of parts for brad. DONT QUOTE ME ON THIS , but from the post on listbot it sounds like it.

joe

i do take great pride in my boats. i dont think there is one unhappy person with the boats look, performance or quality of craftsmanship. and if so i would take care of it with no question asked.

jay

accually there is a stu 20 boat. it is owned by ron jefferson. it was not persuded because it would not run correctly to stu's standards.

 

[Don Ferrette]

I think we are getting a little lost here. While we all can acknowledge that every motor, boat, or piece of hardware, whatever can be traced back to something that it was derived from, it's the "splashing" that's the point. If you take a product & find a legitimate improvement can be made & you change it, that's not a splash. If the builder has the consent of the originator of the design to make it, that's not a splash. If you copy something but it's soley for your own use, that's not a splash. The splash occurs when someone goes out & takes a product designed, R&D'ed, & finally put into production by someone else, pops off a bunch of copies without authorization or permission & sells them for profit. THAT'S splashing & that's wrong.

 

[Ron Olson]

This was brough up (again) over at Jim's RCBD over the Forabuck splashes sold on eBay. His aren't the only ones that I know of. How about Roostertailz and his deliberate rip-off of Phil Thomas' Miss Winston "Lobster" boat? People such as Jerry Crowther at Seaducer have to build the molds with a slight nuance in them because the hull shape will change as the hull shrinks during the curing process altering the bottom affecting the handling. I've seena Forabuck hull run and I wasn't impressed, it hopped badly in the corners due to his "changes".

Go ahead, save a few Dollars by buying a splash, you'll get whupped by an original!

 

[Jay Stone]

Clay,

There is nothing against Jon. I have one of his boats. I love it.

I also have a Crapshooter 60 hydro, and continue to get parts for it from Stu. I think Stu has worked extremely hard to develop his boats. If he manufactured a 20 hydro for public sale, I would have purchased one rather than the Warlok. But if Stu offered a 20, Jon probably wouldn't even be building the Warlok.

Hey Jon.. shoot me an email. I lost your phone number, I need to contact you about a few things.

[email protected]

 

[Will Gallagher]

This discussion reminds me of something a very wise person told me years ago.

To copy ones work is plagiarism . To copy the work of many is research.

 

[pro27]

Since the VERY FIRST concept and design of THE outrigger, everything conceived since then has been an improved copy.

Adam was an original, Eve was a modified copy as are all peoples since then.........

 

[Danny Bull]

Well I hope I don't wade in too deep here but here goes.... Back in 1999 I bought from an importer in Brisbane, Australia a genuine 67 SG Eagle. It cost me then $1000 AU. It was about 70% complete at that stage so there was still alot of work to do with fitting out and painting ( the red and gold one ) and I can tell you the first thing I did with it when I got it home was trace around every side of every piece and measure every dimention of it. NOT with the view to reproducing them for re-sale but for my own use if repairs were ever needed and also for development of other version scaled up or down also for my own use. To date I have done a 45, 90 and a gas version for my own use. The gas version was an exact replica of the 67, only wider with which I won the nationals in Sydney, Easter 2000 ( the orange one ).

All 3 boats that I have produced for myself have since been sold once I had developed them as far as I had wanted to and when sold were advertized as an "SG Eagle REPLICA" and made sure that those that purchased the boats understood that. They certainly weren't built to be sold with profit in mind. I enjoy working with timber for riggers and continue to do my own R & D work on many and varied designs.

My sincerest appoligies to Andy but my motivation has and will always be for the improvement of rigger designs, not for my own personal profit....... now which side do I put that rudder on Don.

Cheers, Danny.

 

[Geraghty]

I am coming in on this very late but here goes.

The secret to reducing the amount of individuals that are willing to go to the effort required to copy a product is to.................offer a product of exceptional design with superior quality,at a fair price and most important....... be able to "deliver" that product the minute the customer decides to part with his $$$$$$.

Being able to "deliver" is the key word here.Model boaters as a rule will pay a higher price if they can get their hands on it now.

Now,if you have a very exceptional product that is difficult to copy you may be able to extend your delivery time a bit but violate any of the forementioned details and you are just asking for a product to be copied.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Good point Rod although I think there are exceptions. Look at Aeromarine, I've never seen anyone have to wait for a boat from them yet they are, by far, the most splashed of hulls I've seen. And boy have I seen some bad ones over the years! <_< <_<

 

[Don Ferrette]

The story on the Stryker is Russ (RC boatworks) asked Remy to make the sprintcat wider for Gas engines, Remy said " I don't have time to mess with that, they run fine the way they are, if you want it wider make it yourself" so Russ did. (disclaimer, I was not there so it may not be perfectly worded but that is the story I have read)

Well I just got Remy's reply to this. I sent him a copy of the quote exactly & he sent me this-

" Give me a break - I would tell someone to copy my hull???- What about the

new hull he has - the Popeyes with the huge cowl on it. Did I say make that

one too and change the cowl?? Thats a lie.

please post this as well-"

 

[jydracing]

hi don you stated that if you take a product and make changes in the product that it is not a copy or splash. in the case of the magnum it is longer,wider,and the running surface is diffrent is it a copy or a splash or ok. it woukd be a copy if you took a magnum and leecraft and could not tell the diffrence. every thing on the magnum started when guest stated that the magnum was a leecraft but it is not i own one of each of these boats and you can tell the diffrence between the two. see ya jimmy eddleman

 

[Don Ferrette]

Well Jimmy, that's only my opinion. If you clearly made visible changes or modifications that WORK then I personally don't consider that a splash. Why? You spent the time & testing doing your own R&D & found you could make IMPROVEMENTS. What I'm getting at are the ones who say take someone else's hull, make a mold of it, add in a fake hatch cover on the deck & say they've "changed" or "improved" it. THAT'S a splash, and that's pure B.S. There are a surprising number of them out there doing things just like that......... <_< <_<

 

[Bob Kensill]

In my own defense,I must say that I was not shooting at anybody in particular,but at those that are afraid to say where their original idea came from. My own boat came from the Newby Craft 21 tunnel. I own the original boat (given to me by Steve) and I made a new hull with different sponsons,a new deck and a more aerodynamic cowl. I did,however,use the original transom design. I bought one of the boats made by the people that bought the original Newby molds,and I must say that it was a piece of junk! I do not know Tim or Charlie (who emailed me and invited me to call him) and have no idea where they got their design for the Magnum, but if they deny it's similarity to the Leecraft,they are only kidding themselves. I hope their boat is very competitive and hope to race against one this year. I will also ad that I bought the rights to build the Equi tuned pipes from John Equi (they are patented) and was told by one guy that if I didn't sell him the business,that he would just copy them. This forum is a place to discuss our favorite hobby and have fun. I continue to learn from what I read here and hope that what I write helps others. Like I said before. I don't mean to seem like i'm attacking anyone,just clearing the air.

Bob Kensill

 

[jydracing]

hi don i need to clear something up i do not build the magnum it is built by a friend of mine i build the hornet tunnel hull. i ran the magnum last year in dist 13 and won all the races it ran in except two where i finished 2 and due to engine problems. the thing that really gets to me is somebody sees a pic of something and sayes that is a copy! with out trying to find out about it first. me personally i would like to see it in person before making a judgment but also every one has an opinion right of wrong. i have been in rc boats for 19 years now and have seen a lot of boats and in every boat i have seen things that look like other boats i do not consider that copying. to me a copy is the exact same.and by the way the magnum was tested for over two years before i raced mine last year i think that would fall under the r&d part and the improvments are there and very noticable to anyone that sees it run but the magnum was just put into production a few monthes ago there has not been one raced yet this year so that the differance could be seen but i feel that by the middle of the racing season the diffrence will be obvious.

don i did not mean to single you out on this but i feel the same as you do if changes were made and the r&d was done and they improved the product than it is not a copy well thah is all for now see ya jimmy eddleman

 

[Chris Thomas]

My two Cents, Too. I suggest if you are going to give credit where credit is due. I guess anthing that resembles a rigger, be it looks - geometry - symmetry - etc. I believe all credit would come back to the Motor City and the guy, Tim Ries, who actually invented, fathered, developed and produced the concept of the rigger. Crapshooter Boats. I will be sure all royalties get funneled his way!!!

 

[Don Ferrette]

There any many who will argue that Don Pinkert is the true father of the outrigger as we know them today. B)

 

[Guest_Mitch Graber]

Don,you are right,Pinkert's "Coyote" outrigger was around

long before the Crapshooter came to be, from what I have

been told by older racers who have been around for over

20 yrs.Also,how could a Crapshooter be the original when it

was copied off of the Roadrunner hulls?So I guess if you

want to get technical,everybody has copied off of Pinkert.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Hey Mitch, long time no talk, how ya been buddy??