Frustrated

[Don Ferrette]

By the way....any word from Bert since he moved?

I met & spoke with Bert at Atlanta race this past weekend. B)

If fore & aft ram wings are set properly & the balance point is correct the boat will work. Dropping the rear sponsons won't do squat for the hull if the wings & balance are wrong. If the wings are positive the boat will not stay on the water. I ran stock, as molded, rear shoes on my Caspari T-4, X455/3 pitched up (let that motor sing!), a flat bottom Speedmaster strut with both fore & aft wings at zero angle of attack but I had to disassemble the hull pieces & reset everything to get it right.

 

[Mike McKnight]

By the way....any word from Bert since he moved?

I met & spoke with Bert at Atlanta race this past weekend. B)

Is he still building any hulls? The one I got from him was outstanding in workmanship. I stalled on it because I wanted to do an additional canopy at the time I was doing the first one. Most of the body work is done I would just need to rig it and paint it. I was building it to go with my conventional Exide but I got sidetracked on the Miller project but the Miller and one of my Circus boats are getting sold later this year. I was planning to finish the 2-wing but I've got another project that I'm dying to get on.

 

[Don Ferrette]

By the way....any word from Bert since he moved?

I met & spoke with Bert at Atlanta race this past weekend. B)

Is he still building any hulls? The one I got from him was outstanding in workmanship. I stalled on it because I wanted to do an additional canopy at the time I was doing the first one. Most of the body work is done I would just need to rig it and paint it. I was building it to go with my conventional Exide but I got sidetracked on the Miller project but the Miller and one of my Circus boats are getting sold later this year. I was planning to finish the 2-wing but I've got another project that I'm dying to get on.

His molds are still in storage, they haven't finished building his house yet ............. :blink:

 

[missbudpilot55]

By the way....any word from Bert since he moved?

I met & spoke with Bert at Atlanta race this past weekend. B)

If fore & aft ram wings are set properly & the balance point is correct the boat will work. Dropping the rear sponsons won't do squat for the hull if the wings & balance are wrong. If the wings are positive the boat will not stay on the water. I ran stock, as molded, rear shoes on my Caspari T-4, X455/3 pitched up (let that motor sing!), a flat bottom Speedmaster strut with both fore & aft wings at zero angle of attack but I had to disassemble the hull pieces & reset everything to get it right.

Don clearify the 0 degress of incidence, is this to the bottom of the hull, that is how mine were set....

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

Bill, Chuck, and other Bud 2 wing owners,

Take the skid fin off, the rudder off, leave the strut where ever you have it, lay it on a table, now I'm just going by memory (could be an error) but I bet you have at least an inch from the table to the bottom of those rear sponsons. hold that image ........

Now take a 60 or twin hydro and do the same thing, compare

Now, on a real unlimited, those sponsons are there for a reason, to stop the transom from dropping, and especially with the Bud boats, their rear sponsons extended even further than most others, this design was to prevent a blow over, as the boat started to lift, those extension would force the boat back down on the water (well in theory).

I have made corrections to my Fritz hull (Pico boat) by adding a 1/4" to the bottoms, following the same rear sponson profile and has helped tremendously, and I need to do the same to my Fritz hull (Jasper) before the next race. I didnt have a problem until we started pushing the 60 mph zone.

I can post some pictures when I get home from work tonight.

Bert Dygert made some of the same corrections to his 2 wing boats as well.

Take a look at what I said above, let me know what you see.......

B)

Don, I didnt realize that the hull came in pieces that were adjustable.

 

[Don Ferrette]

By the way....any word from Bert since he moved?

I met & spoke with Bert at Atlanta race this past weekend. B)

If fore & aft ram wings are set properly & the balance point is correct the boat will work. Dropping the rear sponsons won't do squat for the hull if the wings & balance are wrong. If the wings are positive the boat will not stay on the water. I ran stock, as molded, rear shoes on my Caspari T-4, X455/3 pitched up (let that motor sing!), a flat bottom Speedmaster strut with both fore & aft wings at zero angle of attack but I had to disassemble the hull pieces & reset everything to get it right.

Don clearify the 0 degress of incidence, is this to the bottom of the hull, that is how mine were set....

This was done on the set up board with sponsons set, shimmed & blocked at running positions as well as tub leveled & strut position set. I used a single sheet screw thru inside of tub & sponsons at middle of each ram wing (tops were off, they popped like yours did). The screws were snug enough to hold but still allow me to move (pivot) ram wings to obtain zero on the incedence meter. Once I had this I marked the tub & sponsons & then assembled the ram wings with the 3M epoxy kit I gave you the numbers for. This was alot of work but once done the boat worked quite well. B)

 

[Mark McCray]

Chuck,

Email me a picture of your boat please. Want to compare it to something on mine. The more pics the better.

[email protected]

Mark

 

[Chuck Spragg]

Chuck, I owned A Caspari T-4 & what Bill is saying is true, the 2 pair of ram wings need to have a zero angle of attack. Your balance point need to be about 2 inches behind the back vertical edge of front sponsons, I had to add a significant amount of weight inside both sponsons to get my T-4 hull balanced. As for the turn fin it MUST be dead parallel to the sponson running surfaces. If you can send me a picture of the turn fin & also a side pic of hull on a flat set up board, send to [email protected]. I'll look at it this evening when I get home. We've got an issue here & it ain't a prop problem.

Don , Dont have any yet, as soon as i do I,ll post them. Turn is parallel with canoe. P. Thomas 1/8 turnfin on heavey bracket. Thanks chuck

 

[Chuck Spragg]

Chuck,

first of all it's a 2 wing, not a tri wing

the hull design is a P.O.S. (scale wise)

your driving it like a Sport 40, trying to catch me!

enough of the humor (Chuck and I know each other well)

Clamp on an alum angle to the strut (48" long) and verify that it is truely paralell with the sponsons.

add weight, I could never figure out why ANY Bud 2 wing boat spends more time in the air then on the water, it's a vented hull, its longer, its..... its like some one made a POS and every one copied it, the rear sponsons on any Bud 2 wing are way too shallow, and yet (on a real unlimited) they are there for rear support and to prevent the boat from blowing over???? Add weight

Now dont get me wrong, they are fast, but never on the water. add weight

I have seen at least 6 different Bud 2 wing hulls over the past 10 years in district 2, and they all have the same tendency to ride extreamly light (add weight), and blow over.

Have fun Chuck, (add weight) wish I was there to observe your frustration.

B)

Oh, did I mention to add weight ?

Good to here from you Joe, Yes I,m adding weight to her to start with and moving balance forward , but it wont be 2ins. will be a little farther back . By the whey it wasn,t me who moved five states away to avoid a good spankin this summer,Hurry home see you later. Chuck

 

[Chuck Spragg]

I'll throw this out for open discussion and I will be talking to Don about it over the phone in the very near future as well.

 

The angle of attack on the fore & aft wings if set at a positive angle of incidence can cause the boat to go airborn at an early speed, this is probably why yours is seeing the air at around 30 mph, mine started doing it at around 45-50 mph.

 

Lets say you set the fore wing at a minus 1 to 1 1/2 degree of incidence and the rear wing at 0 degrees, in my way of thinking (thios could be dangerous.. :unsure: ) this should tame the hull considerably...True of False?

 

Chuck did you assemble the hull pieces together or did Dick assemble them for you?

 

Joe Wiebelhaus, question to you is how much do you think needs to be added to the rear shoes on the Bud T-4? I always thought that they were out of the water when most of the boats that have them were on full plane, both full size & model......

Bill. Dick built this boat for me back 99 i tried setting for 2000 race season never got it right,it looks like front ram wings 3 1/2 to 4 degrees , i am going to shut down some of air going under traps . also try small winglets on top wings to disturb air over top so not as much lift on top sucking boat up if that makes any since. Chuck

 

[Chuck Spragg]

Chuck,

Email me a picture of your boat please. Want to compare it to something on mine. The more pics the better.

[email protected]

Mark

Mark I will send them in a couple days need some time to gather them up Chuck

 

[Don Ferrette]

........Dick built this boat for me back 99 i tried setting for 2000 race season never got it right,it looks like front ram wings 3 1/2 to 4 degrees.....

This is probably why it will not stay on the water, way too much positive angle of attack. If you hull is anything like the one I had, the ram wings are held with a couple sheet screws & silicone between. Take the screws out & use a piece of 100lb. test nylon fishing line to go between pieces to seperate them. My Caspari T-4 was bought from a guy who had it built by Dick & never ran it, all 4 of the ram wings (fronts & rears) were also set with too much attack angle. :blink:

Here is the incidence meter I've used for a number of years-

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Defau...x?ProdID=ROB404

 

[missbudpilot55]

Joe and others that are not farmiliar with the Thunderboat Reproductions Bud T-4, the hull boat is molded in a total of 11 seperate components, the hull center section, cowl, 2 outer canoes, 2 fwd ram wings, 2 rear wings, 1 horizontal wing, 2 verticle fins. The fore & aft wings are held in place by S/S sheet metal screws, so this boat could be assembled with all sorts of negative or positive incidence on any the wings. When I go back together with mine I am going to be very careful as to how the wings are positioned on the center hull section & canoes, the goal will be not to add any weight to the hull what so ever.

Chuck, perhaps all of the incidence that you have in the forward ram wings explains the boat going airborne at around the speed range of 30 mph. Personally I don't think installing a spoiler to the top of the wing is going to fix the problem, you still have to deal with the bottom trapping and deflecting the air down and still lifting the front of the boat and going airborn, 3 1/2 - 4 degrees is an awfull lot of positive incidence to try and counteract. My suggestion would be to seperate the forward ram wings fron the hull center section and reposition them to be set at 0 degrees, I know this means the possibility of repainting in that section, but it will be better than fighting a problem that won't go away. I have had my boat since since 2000, and Dick assembled and painted it for my wife when she ordered it as a birthday gift for me. I have never really ran the boat much at all fighting the canoe decks popping off. Waiting on a new set to fix the problem.

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

Joe and others that are not farmiliar with the Thunderboat Reproductions Bud T-4, the hull boat is molded in a total of 11 seperate components, the hull center section, cowl, 2 outer canoes, 2 fwd ram wings, 2 rear wings, 1 horizontal wing, 2 verticle fins. The fore & aft wings are held in place by S/S sheet metal screws, so this boat could be assembled with all sorts of negative or positive incidence on any the wings. When I go back together with mine I am going to be very careful as to how the wings are positioned on the center hull section & canoes, the goal will be not to add any weight to the hull what so ever.

Chuck, perhaps all of the incidence that you have in the forward ram wings explains the boat going airborne at around the speed range of 30 mph. Personally I don't think installing a spoiler to the top of the wing is going to fix the problem, you still have to deal with the bottom trapping and deflecting the air down and still lifting the front of the boat and going airborn, 3 1/2 - 4 degrees is an awfull lot of positive incidence to try and counteract. My suggestion would be to seperate the forward ram wings fron the hull center section and reposition them to be set at 0 degrees, I know this means the possibility of repainting in that section, but it will be better than fighting a problem that won't go away. I have had my boat since since 2000, and Dick assembled and painted it for my wife when she ordered it as a birthday gift for me. I have never really ran the boat much at all fighting the canoe decks popping off. Waiting on a new set to fix the problem.

Bill,

Thanks for clearing the build issue up, it sound like Chuck has what he has and unless you want to do some hacking and painting, he is stuck with some bad built in properties. I still thing with some weight and some attention to those rear sponsons, he can get that boat running.

 

[missbudpilot55]

Joe and others that are not farmiliar with the Thunderboat Reproductions Bud T-4, the hull boat is molded in a total of 11 seperate components, the hull center section, cowl, 2 outer canoes, 2 fwd ram wings, 2 rear wings, 1 horizontal wing, 2 verticle fins. The fore & aft wings are held in place by S/S sheet metal screws, so this boat could be assembled with all sorts of negative or positive incidence on any the wings. When I go back together with mine I am going to be very careful as to how the wings are positioned on the center hull section & canoes, the goal will be not to add any weight to the hull what so ever.

Chuck, perhaps all of the incidence that you have in the forward ram wings explains the boat going airborne at around the speed range of 30 mph. Personally I don't think installing a spoiler to the top of the wing is going to fix the problem, you still have to deal with the bottom trapping and deflecting the air down and still lifting the front of the boat and going airborn, 3 1/2 - 4 degrees is an awfull lot of positive incidence to try and counteract. My suggestion would be to seperate the forward ram wings fron the hull center section and reposition them to be set at 0 degrees, I know this means the possibility of repainting in that section, but it will be better than fighting a problem that won't go away. I have had my boat since since 2000, and Dick assembled and painted it for my wife when she ordered it as a birthday gift for me. I have never really ran the boat much at all fighting the canoe decks popping off. Waiting on a new set to fix the problem.

Bill,

Thanks for clearing the build issue up, it sound like Chuck has what he has and unless you want to do some hacking and painting, he is stuck with some bad built in properties. I still thing with some weight and some attention to those rear sponsons, he can get that boat running.

Joe, my concern for Chuck is that he may have a set up with diffrent incidence on the left and right, and that would be even worse than if it were equal at the 3 1/2 to 4 degrees of positive he claims he has. I think it's a major correction or nothing but headaches is in the future if this boat.

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

Chuck,

Email me a picture of your boat please. Want to compare it to something on mine. The more pics the better.

[email protected]

Mark

Mark I will send them in a couple days need some time to gather them up Chuck

Pictures too large, let me downsize

 

[Mark McCray]

I am trying to avoid the problems you are having Chuck by putting in 3 gyros in this Bud boat to control both the split canards up front. Each wing will have a seperate gyro and then theres the third gyro to control the other axies. I don't know, its just a guess that this will help adjust the boat so she runs level even if the weight is off. I'd like to hear others thoughts on this idea!

 

[Blue Print]

Hi Mark

Have you seen the video of my 1/8th T4 running just a tad under 80mph. Hull was built from Roger Newton Plans and made from carbon fiber for nitro racing. CG was 2.5 inches behind the sponson which made it a bit nose light at that speed but as you can see in the video the CG then becomes to far forward when it is flying in the air. Gyros may work but may be to slow to react in a blow over. By the way my boat weighs 22lbs and is electric powered. :lol:

Check out the video here: http://www.lousfastrc.com/

Merv

NZ

 

[brandonclan]

Sure looked alot better yesterday!!! This is gonna be fun!!

See ya man

Dan

 

[Mike Rappold]

Hi Mark

Have you seen the video of my 1/8th T4 running just a tad under 80mph. Hull was built from Roger Newton Plans and made from carbon fiber for nitro racing. CG was 2.5 inches behind the sponson which made it a bit nose light at that speed but as you can see in the video the CG then becomes to far forward when it is flying in the air. Gyros may work but may be to slow to react in a blow over. By the way my boat weighs 22lbs and is electric powered. :lol:

Check out the video here: http://www.lousfastrc.com/

Merv

NZ

Merv,

On you hull that is in the video, where do you have the front ram wing set angle wise? If I recall correctly, Roger Newton's plans has the bottom of the front ram wing 4-5 degrees releative to the water.

Thanks in advance.

Mike Rappold