FE rigger motor size and considerations

[Jeff Shriver]

it seems to rub a couple of you folks at Cafe the wrong way everytime a Neu is mentioned in a set-up, test, or even in passing these days...

It doesn't bother me that there is another great motor to chose from. I like to see what everyone is running, no matter what the setup. I will probably pick a Neu motor very soon. It just gets very old seeing posts stating Neus are the fastest and best motor around. I usually stop reading the thread at that point.

 

[brooks93]

it seems to rub a couple of you folks at Cafe the wrong way everytime a Neu is mentioned in a set-up, test, or even in passing these days...

It doesn't bother me that there is another great motor to chose from. I like to see what everyone is running, no matter what the setup. I will probably pick a Neu motor very soon. It just gets very old seeing posts stating Neus are the fastest and best motor around. I usually stop reading the thread at that point.

exactly. I think between the members in the CAFE we have 99% of the hackers, lehner, and neus so we all have tried them

but what Jeff said is exactly the reason.

 

[AlanN]

I recall that Jim C had the first new in the club and I followed suit.

We know they are not bad motors.....as previously stated...just plain tired of hearing it.

 

[Andrewg]

Maybe you could send some Lehners to Quiet flyer and see what the dyno says.

I have been waiting years to see that and apart from a little micro motor nothing has been offered....

Oh I may do that myself

 

[Andrewg]

Kris

Your are right your Hacker was faster, in a straight line, but we were racing ovals and we set our boats up to go round turns as well. The twelve cell hull the Syncron won. The 18 cell boat the Triton placed third.

The Neu/Toysport:

* ran the fastest race of the meeting

* ran a race record for 1.5ks (ran faster than the NAMBA record for 1/2 mile)

* highest average race speed recorded for any 12 cell mono on the planet

* took the national championship

Wouldnt you have preferred to do that? You could have you have the driving skills. For me third was good I have a long way to go to be as smooth and consistent as you and Tony. I also have two B50-8XLs here in mint condition. In the same setup are simply not as fast.

Now as to straightline speed there are a couple of events this year, are you going?

 

[Peter Zala]

So since the subject has changed from helping this bloke with a setup to who beat who i wish to add my 2 cents, you may not like what i am going to stay but bad luck, your FE boats were running illegally at the nationals, so you cannot compare your speed to former Australian records.

As it stands we do not have nimph cells as part of the current rules, theres been alot of talk now for long enough, all that needs to be done is 1 club put 1 motion thru to ampba for the request of adding a simple word into current fe rules "nimph cells", then all members will vote which will be no problem then we are racing legal.

Andrew dont come back and say we are on it, i have my secret committee working very hard, i applaud you for your efforts in wanting to make Australian rules up to date but you have been told by ampba itself 1 rule change at a time, so far nothing has happened no club has put a change forward and you will not be allowed to run at any SAW events with your current setup.

My view

FIX IT

 

[Andrewg]

Peter

you mean this secret committee from the AMPBA website?

" PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: ELECTRIC CONSULATIVE GROUP Reply with quote

Following discussions with people at the nationals I took the liberty of asking a small group of 7 to assist in developing a rule set to ensure electrics met the performance levels expected of models at sanctioned events and ensure the Competition Rules are applied to electrics

The group included:

Kris FLynn

Andrew Gilchrist

Tony Jones

David Kingston

Just Sagaidak

Scott Tapsall

Despite a wide range of perpestives the group has worked thru 8 identified issues to produce a succint set of impartial rules with fewer classes, improved safety for "dead" boats and "significantly" enhanced performance potential.

Pending a final consensus, the revisions which are agreed will be released as a proposal for inclusion in notices for sanctioned events during 06/07.

I would make the point the committee is not an offical AMPBA committee.

As I convened the committee and am a vendor of electric equipment I wish to reassure AMPBA members that I will strive to ensure no commerical interests, including my own, are promoted above any other, and further that no commerical interests are compromised by the suggested rules.""

So Pete see you at straightlines then?

 

[Scott_T]

Dan,

I've kicked around a few numbers on some simple calculators. I figure if I throw a few set-ups out there, people will correct me and get this thread back on track!

OK, I've based this all on 18 cells, 80% motor efficiency and 15% prop slippage.

Nemesis/Feigao 10 XL motor, loaded rpm 28,000.

1440 prop - 49 mph

1445 prop - 56 mph

1640 prop - 57 mph

1740 prop - 60 mph

Nemesis/Feigao 11 XL motor, loaded rpm 25,000.

1445 prop - 50 mph

1640 prop - 51 mph (prop may be a bit small)

1740 prop - 54 mph (prop may be a bit small).

Now I have no idea of current draw with these set ups, but they're all pretty conservative I believe. The Nemesis motors may not be the greatest out there, but they are CHEAP and definitely good enough to get started with. A Barracuda 125 speed control should be OK, and you can get the motor/ESC combo for approx $270 if you look around.

 

[Dan_Cousin]

Thanks Scott. This was exactly what I was looking for. Could you run some numbers for a 12 cell boat. This is most likely the max Ill go. 8 cell is looking interesting as well.

 

[jeff baham]

when you build , build two, one for me

 

[Scott_T]

With 12 cells could try an 8XL motor -

1640 prop - 47 mph

1740 prop - 50 mph

1650 prop - 59 mph

But the run time would be reduced from the 18 cell set ups above.

Again, you'd need someone with the FE Calculator to determine the current draw.

 

[BoatDoc]

according to FE calc, the 8XL with a 1640 would draw 101 amps. a bit much i'd say. a P735 would draw 80amps @ 34,000 RPM and run 66mph. a 9XL on 18 cells would go 62 mph on a P735 and draw amps in the low 60's. FE calc seems to like the smaller props for these motors. i'm working on a 18cell rigger with a 9XL and i've looked at it a few times trying to figure out the props.

 

[David Kingston]

according to FE calc, the 8XL with a 1640 would draw 101 amps. a bit much i'd say. a P735 would draw 80amps @ 34,000 RPM and run 66mph. a 9XL on 18 cells would go 62 mph on a P735 and draw amps in the low 60's. FE calc seems to like the smaller props for these motors. i'm working on a 18cell rigger with a 9XL and i've looked at it a few times trying to figure out the props.

The 8XL set up correctly can swing the 1650

I have run it wil a hacker 77 not a problem

The 10XL is a mild setup and i can run the 1650 with a hacker 70 for more than 8 laps on an nitro oval with this setup. Cells going in cold come out warm. This testing was in a sport hydro so a rigger would be lighter again. 50mph and loving it.

Scott thanks for the numbers - i said this setup as one of my first post

Dan,

If you have never run a rigger before, i suggest that you do go a smaller prop just to be safe. 640, 642 would be also good props. Will be easier one equipement. Remember if you change to a 14, 16, or 17 series prop that they are lifting so get the strut flat, or parallel with running surface. (12cells 8XL and a prop scott suggested also)

Aus electric guys

Lets leave it for our own forum. Ive had enough of the BS

David

 

[Capt Ron]

I'm thinking of puting together a FE rigger to mess around with. I'd like it to push a small (say .12 sized) rigger in the 50mph range.

This will not be for racing, just for goffing around when I don't feel like messing around with the fast boats.

all this talk about [12 and 18 cell] FE riggers is fine but...

you won't be fit'n [12-18 cells] in a .12 sized rigger nor do you need 12-18 cells to run in the 50mph range for goof'n around...

perhaps Mr. Turner can jump in here and shed some light on the subject...

respectfully,

Ron

 

[BoatDoc]

i figured the FE calc #'s looked a little conservative. i've heard of a few 9xl boats on 18 cells running a lot faster than 66mph. but i was just putting the #'s up there as the came from the program.

 

[Kris Flynn]

Andrew,

When did I ask for an advertisement? All I was saying was that you SAY you were pulling 70+ AMPS with your NEU setup, which was slower than my Hacker setup which wouldnt have been pulling near that amount of AMPS. My driving ws the only reason I failed to win. Dont forget Tony has been driving, well racing boats for 16+ years and me, well 18 months.

Please tell me how that makes your setup more efficient?

Kris

 

[Andrewg]

Kris

It isnt your driving. You are very good driver. Twice your boat spun out as it entered turn 4. That lost two races. The Syncron will turn hard left or right at full throttle with no fin.

Randy has a new 29" version of the OM26 splash you have. My bet is Randy did a 29" version because on 12 cells and a brushless the 26" is near the limits of its handling. He isnt alone the DarkHorse has the 26" as an 8 cell hull - for years the Maus 26" Bullet was the 12 cell hull of choice. Dark Horse now uses a 29" hull for 12 cell brushless. In 3.5 the same thing happened a couple of years ago and they went from 29" to 32" hulls

Efficiency: I have dyno tests for Neu motors. output efficiency curves etc

Amp Draw: The real figure was closer to 54 amps. Discharge graphs show IB3800's had 1.4 AH left after Heat 2 in the Neu/Castle/Syncron. Ignoring capacity reduction under load it used 2ah in 2 min or 60 amps average. That is an absolute max figure.

Independent tests show at 60 amps capacity is down to 81% for IBs and 80% for GP's. That figure indicates 51.4 amps average. This is an absolute minumum. Adjusting for actual capacity the actual figure is closer to 54 amps.

Do you have any measured figures for the Hacker/Castle/OM?

 

[Kris Flynn]

See Andrew, with the correct results correct conclusions can be made.

 

[Andrewg]

Kris

Conclusions? Which conclusions?

 

[Dennis Whitt]

Hey guys,Nice thread.Lots of good ideas.

I played around with spinning 32 and 35 mm props in P riggers.Hacker 8L and a 2135 is faster than snot on a winter day but getting the prop to hook up in race water was another story.

It just always felt like I was running a race in 1st gear.

6xl on an oval boat ? Alittle hot for my taste speedo shuts down a round lap 3 or 4.but it is fast as well.7XL is a better choice in my humble opinion.1745,1650,x645.If you have a Aveox 1412 1.5y That was always a tried and true motor as well.

Just my take on it.

Allthough I hold or (held) lots of records both SAW and Oval P hydro always escaped me.(better drivers) I think I still hold P sport.But that a whole other animal and was done with my faithfull Aveox and a sweet combo from my pal Paul P.

I would say Dick Crowe would be the man for THE P hydro set up.