FE rigger motor size and considerations

[Dan_Cousin]

I'm thinking of puting together a FE rigger to mess around with. I'd like it to push a small (say .12 sized) rigger in the 50mph range.

This will not be for racing, just for goffing around when I don't feel like messing around with the fast boats.

What kind of DC motor should I be looking for. I assume 12 cells is required.

I've been building and nitro riggers for a long time so the boat can be built for what ever is required. I'm also an electrical engineer with experience with brushless DC motor controller electronics so bacis electronics are well understood.

3/16" shaft too much I suppose. 1/8 shaft more appropriate? I saw the FE guys at the last Houston race used wire drives. Looks like 1/16" music wire.

Any special radio requirments? I have an older AM radio, is that a definate no go?

props?

 

[RIGGERMORTISE]

Thanks for asking this one Dan, I have a little blazin .12 rigger here that would love to get an electric conversion! Im interested to see what is sugested

dave

 

[Kris Flynn]

Hey Dan and Dave,

I would say a good setup would be something in the range of an 8XL motor (hacker, feiago, nemesis) 12 cells, say 3700's would be good enough. As for Prop a X640 to X642 should do pretty good (not sure what lifting props would be any good) According to FECalc an X642 should be around 70 amps and 50MPH

A Hacker 77 is a good option for the controller, or you can give a Castle Creations Barra 125 a go

I'm sure Jay Turner will probably jump in here and give a bit better details.

Kris

 

[BoatDoc]

are you set on runnning 12 cells? if you're not, a climate blizzard will do 50 on 8cells with a nemesis 8s. it'll get into the high 40's on 6 cells and an 8s. or you could run the 7s on 6 cells. i've been running mine on 6 cells/baracuda 80amp/nemesis 8s. the prop for that set up would be an X632, with a bit of tongue removed and Barr cut.

 

[Andrewg]

The Neu is the fastest motor around at the moment

1515/1D (more an issue of rpm than mass) use a strong controller and start with an X435 - this will be fast. Around 100kph/60mph. If everything is cool try a higher pitch prop like a Y535

Or a 1509/1Y a lower Kv not so fast but light and as effective as the two poles. Both will pull approx 80 amps cont. so you need an ESC with plenty of headroom. I am biased toward Castle but it is the controller of choice at the moment for serious hi performance apps.

For 2 pole motors the most experienced fastest racers always opted for the B50-L series motors. Watch the Feigao Nemesis they run hot and fail relatively easily once the current draw goes up.

 

[David Kingston]

12 cell lifting props with an 8XL

1650 - oval

1750 - oval again but this is a hot setup

16-18cells

9XL

x440 prop

 

[Andrewg]

Dave

Dont you think those setups are a atad conservative

They look straight out of 1999? Seriously. They look like Aveox recs for 2000/2400's at http://www.fastelectrics.com/octuraprops.htm

 

[Dan_Cousin]

I've been reading the SS1. How would that do for this application.

Is that water cooling coil required? How about for the ESC?

Do the batteries need cooling when drawing so much current (80 amps)?

I'm looking for at least 5 minutes of run time in a light boat rigger running up to 50MPH.

What would be a target weight for a light rigger in the 8-12 cell class?

Anyone have pictures that I can look at for a setup?

 

[AlanN]

SS1 won't cut it.

Neu the fastest is BS. They are good but there are plenty of other makes that can get you there.

5mins @ 50MPH.....gotta go Lipo or other latest tech

Your rigger will prob be a bit heavy for electrics but you could get it moving.

How much room do you have in your hull....sizes of the interior and length would help.

Electrics need to be cooled...the speedcontroller at least and motor if its not an outrunner style. Batts we don't watercool but it has been done. It's just not nececessary with the proper setup.

The thing is there are many different setups to get what you want but to be more specific.

I think it's time for Jay to chime in.

 

[Dan_Cousin]

It will be a custom boat built around what I need to accomodate the batteries, ESC and motor. I've been scratch building riggers for over a decade so the boat can be anything it needs to be.

I'm not looking to set a world record here. Looking for more of a good bang for the buck motor, ECS,battery that will run in the 50mph range for 5 minutes and not burn up in a FE rookies hands.

When I'm done getting my kicks with this one I'll probably give it to my nephiew to get his feet wet in the sport. He's been eyeing my 45 rigger but thats too fast for him at this point.

 

[Scott_T]

50 mph for 5 mins is a pretty big ask for 12 cells. There's certainly more knowledgable people out there than me on this, but my feeling is that you'll need to either go LiPo cells, or up it to 18 NiMH cells. Going to 18 cells should get you the speed easily, and lower the current draw compared to a 12 cell set-up. This will give more run time, and everything should run a little cooler.

Someone might be able to run a few set ups through the FE calculator to help you out. I don't have access to it.

A flex or wire drive system will both work. 3/16" prop shaft will be fine for the props you'll need.

Electric riggers generally look a little different to nitro riggers, so have a look at as many pics as you can before building. Or pick up a Climate Matrix, they're pretty cheap, and would do the job.

 

[Andrewg]

Alan

Are you running Neus?

One guy who asked was from Australia our races run twice as long as NthAm with similar power levels and in that second minute there is a lot more heat. And people here have had problems with hot feigaos - tho not the originals. The length of race and thermal limits place a premium on efficiency. Neus have a definite edge in that regard.

Over 5 mins the current draw will be 45 amps. At 45-85 amps cells dont need cooling.

A 700 like Neo-X/Sc/SS1 is a good way to start in electrics - it will run 40 plus and can certainly go harder with 16 cells

The class to look for is the NAVIGA Hydro 2 class these guys run exactly this time. If you get a brushless around 2500 rpm/v of about 240-320gm and run an X438 you will be right in the ballpark of 50 mph once the boat is running well

All up weight shoudl be 1.8kg - say 4 lbs

 

[AlanN]

Andrew,

Yes I have one Neu motor I run....but it's not much different than a comparable lehner that I also use. I have also ran a basic lehner against Brain Buass neu setup and we were dead even in speed(N-Sport).

They don't make enough winds for all applications so your statement might hold true in some classes but not all. I don't like flag waving especially when the info is not entirely true. Plett/Hacker/Lehner and others make great motors too.

 

[Andrewg]

Alan

many things make boats run the same mass props cells development etc and I agree you can win a race with almost any motor. Gee I have video here of Dick Crowe using an SS1 in a cabover to beat home a filed hacker powered P Sport Hydros. Your N Sport was presumably beating home other lehners and hackers etc;; You set boats up real well maybe your N sport would be faster with a NEU. If you test one it should be a significanlty higher Kv than your two pole motor at least 10 percent.

I also used a lot of motors and sold them. The Neus perform better than any motor I have run in the same setup. My bet is still with Neu - they test better At 90% efficeincy even a 1% improvement in efficiency means the motor will take nealry 10% extra power before it hits the same thermal ceiling. If the power is there its more a matter of transmitting it to the water.

At nationals our 12 cell mono ran similar times to the winning 3.5s and that was a soft setup.

I havent heard of a lehner which has matched the Neu speed yet There is lots more in these motors

 

[brooks93]

what you didn't know Alan... Neu is the answer for everything..

man that Band Wagon must be getting full

Yes I have some too but, I personally like my lehners better but, the neus are good motors just not the only answer

 

[David Kingston]

what you didn't know Alan... Neu is the answer for everything..

man that Band Wagon must be getting full

Yes I have some too but, I personally like my lehners better but, the neus are good motors just not the only answer

DITO

Nue are great motors - i have seen some fast boats, but like everthing, there are different boats/motor/cell combos that work equally as well.

Andrew,

Try a M445 or M447 with they 1515/1Y in the mono. Should be a hoot then

 

[Capt Ron]

what you didn't know Alan... Neu is the answer for everything..

man that Band Wagon must be getting full

come on Kelly...

it seems to rub a couple of you folks at Cafe the wrong way everytime a Neu is mentioned in a set-up, test, or even in passing these days...

you think we Neu motor users sit around thinking up ways to piss off a handful of seemingly easy to irritate folks?

you think our content with the product is really "theatre" designed to make money for some dude in San Deigo and it needs to be quelled, and people warned?

perhaps there was magic dust in those motor boxes out of San Deigo that turned Neu motor users into flag wave'n, grandstanding, "Neu is the answer to everything"

fools!

or perhaps there's an ointment for your irritation... good luck

Ron

 

[Kris Flynn]

OK Guys, conversation is going well so far...just remember to keep tempers down

Andrew, your Neu setup was slower than my 8xl and you were pulling more amps? I sure as hell dont think i was pulling 70 odd amps, especially with the BCD80, it would have died h34r:

Kris

 

[Capt Ron]

no anger on my part Kris, Kelly knows i respect his abilities as a boat builder-driver and when he speaks, i always listen...

i just want it made clear that i'll be darned if i'm going to decline answering a question about set-ups just because the motor i may mention or suggest "rubs someone the wrong way" because they are tired of hearing about them...

when i ran Aveox motors i gave Aveox set-up information when asked...

it would be lame to suggest a set-up i'd never run before...

it's a great day in Central Florida, we're finally get'n some rain to put the fires out!

Ron

 

[brooks93]

Ron there is a difference in telling someone a working setup and not knowing and guessing then arguing with someone because they didn't mention neu when they gave there setup

not referring to you Ron