Engine work

[F.Orlic]

Every time when question of who is the best engine man comes up I ask myself what is the people's criteria in selecting a good tuner. How do you guys decide who to send your engine for mods, what is important to you?

Advanced racing tech

Frank Orlic

 

[user 115]

In no particular order:

Cost

Turnaround time

Reputation of Work

Can I make the engine run when I get it back.

Seeing engines modified by so and so in action and how they perform

Ability to help beyond just engine work

Availability of the person

Charley

 

[Joe_Knesek]

Quality of work period. I define quality by performance gain and consistancy in work product. Nothing would burn me more than to get a good running motor from a tuner and then get another from them that's a dud. I've been racing for 16 years and have never ran a stock motor. Fortunately, I've only had one dud so far.

Price never really plays into my decision. If the tuner can make enough of a differance, it's worth the money they charge. I know don't have the skills to do it on my own. Some may look at is as buying speed, but the bottom line is that only a few can modify a motor to the level I want and I'm not one of them.

 

[TomMoorehouse]

I went with the guy that was most recommended in my area. Worked for me!

 

[waterbug]

I'm with Charlie and Joe !!!

I'm a newbie and I know I can't make a engine run like Frank or any of the other engine builders.

All I can do is test on my old KB engines to see what works and what doesn't. I've built some mean car and gokart race engines in my day but i have to learn from you builders on nitro egines !!

1. performance

2. ability to preforme for me

3. long run times between rebuilds

4. price has some to do with it

My 1/2 cent

 

[TomMoorehouse]

quit saying you will pay for it..... they will raise their prices!

 

[Rules]

Why don't you do the engine work yourself? It's not exactly rocket science. Start by getting a small degree wheel and a cheap vise to hold the engine. Take all your readings off bottom dead center and see what you have. BDC is easier to find with a slight push from a stick on the piston (or a $17.00 1" dial indicator with shoe). You might get something like exhaust: 170, crank: 200, side ports: 124, rear ports: 126. You can slip a 1/16 inch wide piece of paper into the port to mechanically stop the piston and give you a reading. Then measure the squish and jot down all the numbers. Post the findings and ask others what they like. The usual crank/induction is: open at 35 ABDC, closed 65 ATDC=210, exhaust rarely over 195 total, side and rear ports rarely above 140 total. I am guessing there will be lots of racers that will give you good numbers to shoot for, depending on your engine. Ask everyone what they do to each engine component, rod, piston, sleeve, crank, squish, etc. Things like drilling out the rod oil holes with the 2nd oversize wire gage drill and deburring the bushing with a new #11 Xacto blade, and beveling the outer hole with an 82 degree countersink to 1-1/2 to 2x hole dia, and adding thrust surface oil grooves at 45 degrees off axis. They learned to do it, and so can you. Save your money for stuff you need, and be your own engine tuner. Ask me questions, I can give you answers. Look around for the small 1/2 inch, (#225) flexshaft with all 4 collets to fit your dremel and buy a foot control to regulate the RPM. Pick up an ultrasonic cleaner machine from Harbor freight to clean everything. I will send you pictures and a set of ultra tiny tooling you can use to raise the timing if you choose to. John in Huntsville

 

[ClayGlover]

Hi Frank. I've heard only great things about your work from serious boaters that really do know their stuff. Nice to have you stop by and say howdy. Word of mouth is going the way of the dodo bird in the day of the information highway. It's like the saying goes..."out of sight, out of mind". Maybe I've missed you or your webpage on the net? A little "shameless plugging" about what you offer on these message boards = free ads for sure! Or not... it's possible you don't want the additional business? Either way bubba, I think I speak for most others here that your input into this community sure would peak interest. Stick around

As for your question, I ditto Joe's response on performance and quality.

Oh yeah, give your contact info.

 

[ClayGlover]

Why don't you do the engine work yourself? It's not exactly rocket science.

I've played with timing on several engines with some luck. The reason that I like using pros is that they have modified many times more engines than I have or ever will. And some people just like to pay for it so it's done right the first time. Sure adjusting timing with hand tools is fairly straight-forward if you like to do that, I do too! I can't afford to test the timing limits of a motor, but it sure is satisfying getting a motor to go faster yourself! But somethings I just don't have the tools to do it right. Like head buttons for example, or carb barrel work...

Good tips on doing yourself Rules

 

[waterbug]

How's that Tom

Rules

I have all the tools and instruments anyone would need , everyone at my local Harbor Freight konws my name. Just wanted to be competitive right out the box!!!

I'm keeping a journal of tid bits just like what you stated . I will be Emailing you and others when i start. I have a OS and a few KB's i'm playing with know.

I would like to tell all the engine builders and long term boaters on this forum thanks for there comments and insight they share with use.

 

[TimD]

Why don't you do the engine work yourself? It's not exactly rocket science. Start by getting a small degree wheel and a cheap vise to hold the engine. Take all your readings off bottom dead center and see what you have. BDC is easier to find with a slight push from a stick on the piston (or a $17.00 1" dial indicator with shoe).

John,

Good info - but I'd like to suggest to anyone considering this to get the largest practical degree wheel available - the larger it is the easier and more accurate it is.

A pianno wire ground to a sharp point and painted a bright colour helps as a timing marker for the degree wheel.

A set of digital vernier calipers is another very handy tool for measuring up.

Tim.

 

[waterbug]

And just as Clay states !!! I don,t have everything but I,m working on it !!

Tim

Most all Kart shops have fine degree wheels for model engines , plastic and metal . I suggest the metal ones.

Sorry Frank for getting off subject of your post !!!

 

[Scott Schneider]

I roll my own. Getting engine gurus involved is a crutch that the "I Want To Be Fast Too" crowd see's as a way to compete with the truely fast guys.

@75% of a competitive boats advantage go's to set up and being able to drive, and only when set up right will a boat with the "hot" motor run any better.

Many a mild motor set up in a well prepaired boat go's out and smokes the guys who have professional built hot motors.

Want to spend money on performance? Get your arse down to the pond and tweek !! tweek some more, practice your driving skill and you will get your most bang for your buck !! period.

By then you should have a damm good idea what your doing and can do your own engine work. The well rounded boater is multi talented !! Scott

 

[Geraghty]

@75% of a competitive boats advantage go's to set up and being able to drive, and only when set up is right will a boat with the "hot" motor run any better.

Many a mild motor set up in a well prepaired boat go's out and smokes the guys who have professional built hot motors.

Wiser words were never spoken......

 

[Joe_Knesek]

@75% of a competitive boats advantage go's to set up and being able to drive, and only when set up right will a boat with the "hot" motor run any better.

Many a mild motor set up in a well prepaired boat go's out and smokes the guys who have professional built hot motors.

John,

Most motor work costs less than a piston and sleeve. Unless you hit it on the head the first time, you're spending more time and money trying to learn a skill that you will likely never master.

Scott,

Most people that have motor work done spend a lot of time at the pond and I assure you that in my district, the only smoking a stock motor is doing is in the pits. People like Kentley Porter, Ron Jefferson and the Jacuzzi's pay to have their engine work done which let's them spend more time at the pond.

 

[Grimracer]

This is my take on Franks Question. Hi Frank

Availability, timing and performance.

If you are dealing with John Q and you want to provide a service you best be Available.

To answer the phone

Answer E-mail

Meet people in person.

Easy to find, "address, phone, and the like"

Website? Its 2004.

(you like to talk boating..right?)

Timing is also important.

Getting the product out in a timely manner.

Deliver on what you say.

Most important and the reason you provide this service...

Performance.

The racers are looking to win.. Money! got lots of that if you want to win races…. If they think its going to help them win they will pay. If they truly can not afford it they are probably the guys that are beating you at the pond…Think about it…

Now here is what I really think about engine mods.

Go easy. Lets face it, if you make one driving error you have lost all advantage that your now mod motor delivered. Take the mods with a grain of salt. There not going to do you crap if you don’t have a baseline (Definition of baseline: …hours and gallons of fuel).. Get that new motor re-worked, toss on that new wiz-bang prop yea heard so much about…yea…most will be wiping off there hulls and you will just be finishing. Of course you would not go out and race with out that…baseline…(Definition of baseline: …hours and gallons of fuel)..

What im trying to say is that its not the motor that is going to win the race. It’s the complete package. Motor is just a small part of the puzzle. (You knew this didnt you!) If your motor does not perform as the engine builder said..did you change something else? Remember, more speed means more tuning. Did you do just as the Dr. said?..What..your not running the pipe he recommends with that blaha blaha stinger size..

In my one and only US-1 (It would be cool to win another. not any easy task for sure..) my Nova Rossi was box stock.. Timing, head button, everything..

What tourks my hinder is when a motor will not run out of the box. Then guys need to send them in to a builder just to get them to run right.. Less of a mod and more of a repair if you ask me…

OK im done…what is it with this model boating stuff…Man I live for it, the racing, the boats and the people…

ROCK ON

Grimracer

P.S.. Dam Rod!… We did come close to that US-1 in 2002 with that mod K+B on my tunnel dident we..15 points…ERINE..!!!

 

[Kevin_R_Clark]

Frank,

To me there are 2 schools of thought that go into making a tuner choice. They are simply old school or new school. The choice to me depends on what motor I might be wanting to have modded. I just try to find the guy with the most experience on each particular motor. Old school being legends like yourself, Geraghty, Ackerman- guys who`s reputation preseedes them who for the most part don`t race anymore. These guys would always be my first choice simply because if you listen and do exactly as they say your chances at success are much greater. But I also feel they tend to get stuck in the what works deal and there is always more to be gained. New school being the guys who are still racing. Andy, Kevin, Tim, Mark, to me would be leading the way in this catergory. They are the ones who push the envelope,- technology- CNC machining-set ups. I have to admit that if I was dead serious about racing these guys would be my choice. Put getting them to give out all there secrets to setups and the matter might be a hard thing to do.

 

[John Ackerman]

Unfortunatley neither I nor Rod really have the set-ups for all these different boats. What we have to do is listen carefully to what your going to be doing with this engine from Mono's to hydro's and then fool the engine into thinking it was designed for that application. We give a general recommendation on pipes and nitro and then the practice sessions begin from your end. If I have practiced one hour in my life it is into the hundreds of thousands. Marty would show up on Saturday mornings with at least fifty different props and you had better be ready to test. It was quite easy to burn up two or three gallons of fuel every Saturday morning that we could practice. The single greatest advice he ever gave was this. On your way home from the pond what did you not like about your boat? From location of on and off switches to where the water lines ran.

 

[ClayGlover]

I roll my own.  Getting engine gurus involved is a crutch that the "I Want To Be Fast Too" crowd see's as a way to compete with the truely fast guys.

Right on. It's easy for experienced racers to see this fact. In addition, todays motors are much better refined than motors of say 15 to 20 years ago. Less performance to be gained by modifying these new motors. My first k&b .21 was a total dog and was easily "woken up" for additional speed. To be honest, I don't think the best driver with that k&b would have a prayer against one of these new motors in the hands of a poor driver...

 

[Preston_Hall]

Different people like different tuners due to the way they set things up. You have to able to set the boat to the motor. I don't think turn around time is that important because you usually can't call and order anything these days. It all takes time. Price? Well, if you want to be cheap on the motor and spend the extra $100 on props & pipes, then fine.

I rememeber the first time I talked to Frank. K. Porter had just received a 21 and it ran great! Better than he had ever ran and it had good throttle control. That seemed to be a problem with a lot of Porter's earlier engines, it was either on or off. When I asked Frank about my OPS 45 he says "It won't be the fastest but it will be a good race engine". Well, it might not have been the fastest in the world, but I liked being faster than the ones I raced against. Something else I like about Frank's work is that you can take a world record holding engine and it is perfectly heat raceable. Or vise versa, a heat racing engine that takes a world record. Lastly, Frank will tell you when you have garbage and not waist your time! :lol:

So to answer the question, I look for results. If the tuner only sticks bubble gum to the case and it works, then great!

P.S.

See the pic below? That engine was for KP's straightaway. I think it went one way at 115mph at the test pond. It goes 88mph in heat racing.

Another side note. People talk of the quality of work. If the motor runs like a bat-out-of-hell but you see where the dremel went down the sleeve and piston, is that poor quality? Or is good quality that it is nice and shiny?