Andy Brown's Impressive F Hydro running 0% Nitro!

[RonShaw]

Andy Brown raced an impressive F Hydro this past weekend in Charleston, and he was using 0% nitro!!!! I thought I would post to give him kudos and a place to expand upon his accomplishment if he would like to share. This would get our fuel costs close to the price per gallon of high octane airplane gas. How cool is that?????...

 

[David Bryant]

very cool, hopefully someone will post an image of Andy's F-Hydro and engine. Are we talking "FAI" fuel?

 

[stan simpson iv]

Andy Brown raced an impressive E Hydro this past weekend in Charleston, and he was using 0% nitro!!!! I thought I would post to give him kudos and a place to expand upon his accomplishment if he would like to share. This would get our fuel costs close to the price per gallon of high octane airplane gas. How cool is that?????...

F-Hydro,K-90...not E-Hydro.

 

[RonShaw]

Andy Brown raced an impressive E Hydro this past weekend in Charleston, and he was using 0% nitro!!!! I thought I would post to give him kudos and a place to expand upon his accomplishment if he would like to share. This would get our fuel costs close to the price per gallon of high octane airplane gas. How cool is that?????...

F-Hydro,K-90...not E-Hydro.

Ooops, correction made. I will get the title updated as well. Thanks Stan.

 

[Andy Brown]

Thanks for the Kudos Ron!

Yes, Jason was driving the the K-90 powered SGX. In one heat he got the start on Jeremy Edge's CMB 90, 60% nitro powered SGX and Jeremy could not get around him. Jeremy had a little more speed in the straight, but not enough to pass.

Nearing the final lap Jason's engine sagged lean for an instant...just enough for Jeremy to get by.

The nice thing is that the lean sag did not blow the plug. The engine came back to power as soon as Jason backed off the throttle a bit to allow some richness.

The plug was the very plug that we started testing the engine on and that plug now has burned nearly 2 gallons of fuel ( 85% methanol / 15% castor).

 

[Tim_Duggan]

Very cool, Andy. What prop difference are you seeing without liquid torque? Did you have to experiment much with head buttons?

 

[RonShaw]

Your welcome Andy. Again, very impressive to say the least. So it will relate to other sized engines, what percentage increases did you need to make in the two areas of compression ratios and bowl volumes over the high nitro numbers to achieve maximum power? Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[Andy Brown]

Very cool, Andy. What prop difference are you seeing without liquid torque? Did you have to experiment much with head buttons?

Same L.E. pitch Tim. Much less cup and a little less blade area. The methanol does not NEED the load like nitro does.

I made ONE head. Did not even calculate the C.R. I just made the volume much smaller than what we use for 60% nitro.

I simply cut until it LOOKED ABOUT RIGHT. LOL

I guesstimate C.R. to be about 17/1. Maybe a little more. It takes a GOOD starter to fire off this engine!.. I mean to turn it over!

Started with .022" clearance and worked my way down. Stopped when I got to .005" which is where it worked best.

Carb bore, spraybar bore and stinger are all important just like nitro but the best dimensions are not the same. However, I have not had time to get that part

totally worked out yet.... Just roughed out. Generally, the spray bar bore must be much smaller or the card bore much bigger or the stinger much bigger. Some carbs would actually work without pipe pressure.

Used an O'Donnell 99 Turbo plug...have not burned or broke the element....still shiny.

 

[dwilfong]

Andy do you have detonation with the high CR with the methanol?

Will you see the same RPM with no nitro and a very high CR?

Is the nitro what causes the detonation at high CR?

I can see the High CR making up for the toque of the nitro in the fuel.

How much can a high CR make up?

I tried a toroidal head at 14-1 with 60% and it was a toque monster but it did hold back the RPM's.

Dose this translate the same to using just methanol or is it more forgiving?

 

[Andy Brown]

Andy do you have detonation with the high CR with the methanol?

Will you see the same RPM with no nitro and a very high CR?

Is the nitro what causes the detonation at high CR?

I can see the High CR making up for the toque of the nitro in the fuel.

How much can a high CR make up?

I tried a toroidal head at 14-1 with 60% and it was a toque monster but it did hold back the RPM's.

Dose this translate the same to using just methanol or is it more forgiving?

David, So far it is more forgiving. I have seen Zero detonation so far. Perhaps when I have squeezed the last bit of power from it I will burn plugs and get detonation. There are more BTU's of energy in a 20oz. tank of 85% methanol than there is in a 20 Oz. tank of 60% nitro. Figure out out to burn the 20ozs. of Methanol in the same amount of time as the tank of nitro and the boat will go faster.

Getting the RPM seems to not be a problem. I ran the pipe at a long 12.5" and the rpm already seems comparable to 60% on a shorter pipe. So far the engine is timed the same as for 60% nitro.

 

[dwilfong]

Sounds interesting!!!!!

This may be some thing to try with the 1.05 eng have sitting on the bench.

Loading the big engines with 60% is a struggle as there is limited props to chose from.

With less fuel in the air mix I think you can really squeeze it down.

Do you think this will change the way the case is ported (volume) and liner port size?

 

[Andy Brown]

Sounds interesting!!!!!

This may be some thing to try with the 1.05 eng have sitting on the bench.

Loading the big engines with 60% is a struggle as there is limited props to chose from.

With less fuel in the air mix I think you can really squeeze it down.

Do you think this will change the way the case is ported (volume) and liner port size?

"Do you think this will change the way the case is ported (volume) and liner port size?"

More air can flow through the same size port because the air will not have to compete with the large mass of liquid nitro.

Also, methanol is lighter than nitro, so it will take less energy to move it through the ports.

Since the methanol does not posses all of the oxygen that nitro does we will want to get as much air as possible into the engine,

so bigger ports and carbs will be better until we find the limit.

Pipes that produce a lot of bottom end torque will also be beneficial. That would be those pipes that we have found to make TOO MUCH

bottom end torque on 60% nitro.

Our first test day at the lake was with stock case ports and stock drum. Our second test was at the race. We used a case and drum with much more port volume. We also used a pipe that produced more torque. The result was better.

Jason did place 4th overall in F Hydro. That was his first time racing F class. He took himself out in one heat by hitting a buoy...could have possibly placed higher.

 

[Jack ODonnell]

 

[dwilfong]

Andy

So If I am understanding it correctly there should be a increase in velocity with using just methanol in the larger ports?

This will also help with the loss of toque from not using nitro?

How much do you think it can be squeezed?

32-1 full cly CR calculation?

Plug of choice?

K&B HD , Glow Bee, Nelson or some thing else ?

Jack

come on now just don't smile.

 

[Tim_Duggan]

Very cool, Andy. What prop difference are you seeing without liquid torque? Did you have to experiment much with head buttons?

Same L.E. pitch Tim. Much less cup and a little less blade area. The methanol does not NEED the load like nitro does.

I made ONE head. Did not even calculate the C.R. I just made the volume much smaller than what we use for 60% nitro.

I simply cut until it LOOKED ABOUT RIGHT. LOL

I guesstimate C.R. to be about 17/1. Maybe a little more. It takes a GOOD starter to fire off this engine!.. I mean to turn it over!

Started with .022" clearance and worked my way down. Stopped when I got to .005" which is where it worked best.

Carb bore, spraybar bore and stinger are all important just like nitro but the best dimensions are not the same. However, I have not had time to get that part

totally worked out yet.... Just roughed out. Generally, the spray bar bore must be much smaller or the card bore much bigger or the stinger much bigger. Some carbs would actually work without pipe pressure.

Used an O'Donnell 99 Turbo plug...have not burned or broke the element....still shiny.

Thanks Andy!

How is it to "Cold start" without a bit of nitro? I put a drop or two of nitro fuel down the carb to get the motor to fire off initially on FAI fuel. (I use it as after run) Starts much easier that way - this might be handy with the OD99T plug. Also if the idle isn't friendly, even 5% nitro helps immensely.

 

[Danny King]

[quote name="Tim_Duggan" post="606664" timestamp="1413413252

Very cool, Andy. What prop difference are you seeing without liquid torque? Did you have to experiment much with head buttons?

Same L.E. pitch Tim. Much less cup and a little less blade area. The methanol does not NEED the load like nitro does.I made ONE head. Did not even calculate the C.R. I just made the volume much smaller than what we use for 60% nitro.

I simply cut until it LOOKED ABOUT RIGHT. LOL

I guesstimate C.R. to be about 17/1. Maybe a little more. It takes a GOOD starter to fire off this engine!.. I mean to turn it over!

Started with .022" clearance and worked my way down. Stopped when I got to .005" which is where it worked best.

Carb bore, spraybar bore and stinger are all important just like nitro but the best dimensions are not the same. However, I have not had time to get that part

totally worked out yet.... Just roughed out. Generally, the spray bar bore must be much smaller or the card bore much bigger or the stinger much bigger. Some carbs would actually work without pipe pressure.

Used an O'Donnell 99 Turbo plug...have not burned or broke the element....still shiny.

Thanks Andy!How is it to "Cold start" without a bit of nitro? I put a drop or two of nitro fuel down the carb to get the motor to fire off initially on FAI fuel. (I use it as after run) Starts much easier that way - this might be handy with the OD99T plug. Also if the idle isn't friendly, even 5% nitro helps immensely.

I believe Andy meant hard to turn over not to, burn! Low or zero nitro is easier to burn. If the compression is right.

 

[Andy Brown]

Very cool, Andy. What prop difference are you seeing without liquid torque? Did you have to experiment much with head buttons?

Same L.E. pitch Tim. Much less cup and a little less blade area. The methanol does not NEED the load like nitro does.

I made ONE head. Did not even calculate the C.R. I just made the volume much smaller than what we use for 60% nitro.

I simply cut until it LOOKED ABOUT RIGHT. LOL

I guesstimate C.R. to be about 17/1. Maybe a little more. It takes a GOOD starter to fire off this engine!.. I mean to turn it over!

Started with .022" clearance and worked my way down. Stopped when I got to .005" which is where it worked best.

Carb bore, spraybar bore and stinger are all important just like nitro but the best dimensions are not the same. However, I have not had time to get that part

totally worked out yet.... Just roughed out. Generally, the spray bar bore must be much smaller or the card bore much bigger or the stinger much bigger. Some carbs would actually work without pipe pressure.

Used an O'Donnell 99 Turbo plug...have not burned or broke the element....still shiny.

Thanks Andy!

How is it to "Cold start" without a bit of nitro? I put a drop or two of nitro fuel down the carb to get the motor to fire off initially on FAI fuel. (I use it as after run) Starts much easier that way - this might be handy with the OD99T plug. Also if the idle isn't friendly, even 5% nitro helps immensely.

Tim,

Cold start was very easy, even with the cold OD 99T plug. No different than 60% in the same weather conditions. It started easy when I had .022" clearance and also with .005". The only down side was when I got down to .005" the CR was high enough to really tax the starter.

David, I would guess that I am already over 32/ CR full cylinder calculation. Probably 18 or 20 to 1 trapped with 190* exhaust timing.

The COLD OD 99T plug seems very happy in the engine. It worked well even if the engine was too lean or too rich.

 

[David Bryant]

Just curious, which starter/configuration are you using? DynaTron (w/24V)? Hi-Tork (w/24V)? Mariner, Model-4 (w/24V)?

 

[anthony_marquart]

All this is very interesting.. I think we all know that lower nitro ends up easier on the engine life.. My questions is, How can the average guy take advantage of this? How can we document the 'path" to high performance and low nitro? I would love to run 10% fuel and get performance I get now..

 

[Andy Brown]

Just curious, which starter/configuration are you using? DynaTron (w/24V)? Hi-Tork (w/24V)? Mariner, Model-4 (w/24V)?

Sullivan 12volt with 5S LiPo which is just as powerful as when I ran it on 24 volt Lead/acid.