AMB System

[Brian Blazer]

I am checking into the AMB system. I know it was horrible 10 years ago, but maybe they did some changes to make it better. If everyone else uses it, you would think it would work for our stuff as well.

I asked for a quote and some info...I will post the info when I get it.

Brian

 

[bzubee]

Thanks Brian I had been following this tpye of thread on Jim's they ar eusing the personally owned transponders now with the people always screaming about how exspensive the hobby is I can just see us telling them they also have to invest in another $80 fo rtheir own transponder system. Good Luck!

I am checking into the AMB system. I know it was horrible 10 years ago, but maybe they did some changes to make it better. If everyone else uses it, you would think it would work for our stuff as well.

I asked for a quote and some info...I will post the info when I get it.

Brian

 

[Brian Blazer]

I didn't know anyone was talking about it...it doesn't hurt to get pricing on a whole unit.

Brian

 

[Norm Doerr]

Bring it! I want to know more Will it call buoy cuts too?

 

[Ian Folkson]

The Germans and French and Belgiums have been using the system now for years. The Uk Mpba have been using it for 2 years and after a few minor problems we now would not hold a race without it. The Naviga world champs this year was run completely with the system. I helped get BBk software involved in writing a custom program for boats Hydro Offshore and Endurance Racing. They specialise in timing car meetings all over world and this year worked at the Naviga champs. AMB have a new box with more power which was tested at the champs in Norway. We run 2 lines on floating pontoons across the start finish line. (Naviga now have only one position for the line to the left of the pits. The lines go out 20 meters from the bank and use a counterweight system to keep them tight. With the new box we can run up to 30inches above the water and 18 inches apart. Most competitors now use personal transponders in the radio box or AMB still make a set to give out at the meeting that are rechargeable.

Norway Lines

Also check out BBK software but website appears to be down while I am putting this reply on!!

BBK software

Ian Folkson

 

[Jay Stone]

I have raced RC Cars and also Go Karts using these systems. If you could get the glitches worked out and figure a way to get the system implemented for boats it'd be great..

 

[Niklas Edlund]

The Germans and French and Belgiums have been using the system now for years. The Uk Mpba have been using it for 2 years and after a few minor problems we now would not hold a race without it. The Naviga world champs this year was run completely with the system. I helped get BBk software involved in writing a custom program for boats Hydro Offshore and Endurance Racing. They specialise in timing car meetings all over world and this year worked at the Naviga champs. AMB have a new box with more power which was tested at the champs in Norway. We run 2 lines on floating pontoons across the start finish line. (Naviga now have only one position for the line to the left of the pits. The lines go out 20 meters from the bank and use a counterweight system to keep them tight. With the new box we can run up to 30inches above the water and 18 inches apart. Most competitors now use personal transponders in the radio box or AMB still make a set to give out at the meeting that are rechargeable.

Norway Lines

Also check out BBK software but website appears to be down while I am putting this reply on!!

BBK software

Ian Folkson

For V-boats and maybee Offshore races I can understand that it makes it way easier to run a race with AMB system. But for outriggers I cant find 1 single good thing that it does for the racer... <_< For the organizers thats another thing I guess but for the racer - Nope.

I was also at the Worlds in Norway and what I saw, and noticed myself, it was no good for heatracing. The AMB system just cant handle the speeds of an outrigger. We saw faulty starts by some 5 meters in hydro and everything was "ok" by the judges. Very strange. h34r:

Correct me if Im wrong but isnt the recomendations from AMB that you should have the loop at an slow speed area of the (RC car) track - not the straight away...?

 

[Brian Blazer]

Niklas,

Those are the exact problems IMPBA was having with their system and why we got rid of it.

Brian

 

[bzubee]

Brian when we had ours it cost IMPBA about $8,000 for 2 control units since our start line is so long and 2 sets of transponders which for the INTERNATS would loose charge after 3 to 4 days of solid racing at about 14 hours per day all the while they were on the charger as much as possible. I'm willing to listen.

 

[RaceCraftBearings]

For V-boats and maybee Offshore races I can understand that it makes it way easier to run a race with AMB system. But for outriggers I cant find 1 single good thing that it does for the racer... <_< For the organizers thats another thing I guess but for the racer - Nope.

I was also at the Worlds in Norway and what I saw, and noticed myself, it was no good for heatracing. The AMB system just cant handle the speeds of an outrigger. We saw faulty starts by some 5 meters in hydro and everything was "ok" by the judges. Very strange. h34r:

Correct me if Im wrong but isnt the recomendations from AMB that you should have the loop at an slow speed area of the (RC car) track - not the straight away...?

Nicklas, you hit the nail on the head! When I raced cars years ago we used AMB and as you stated the loop has to be in a low speed area. We set the Bridge for the loop aprox 10 feet from turn on the front straight.

When we tried using them at the IMPBA Internats in Huntsville it was a nightmare!

 

[Geraghty]

[quote name='Niklas Edlund' date='Sep 20 2006, 01:12 PM'

Correct me if Im wrong but isnt the recomendations from AMB that you should have the loop at an slow speed area of the (RC car) track - not the straight away...?

As I recall,speed was not our problem with the AMB we had.

Every major auto racing organization uses AMB scoring systems and they work very well.

The loops are buried just below the surface of the track and the transponders are on the bottom of the cars no more than 6"" above the loop wire.

The problem we had with our AMB system was the transponders on the boats were about 24" away from the loop wire above the start finish line.As I recall the distance from the loop wire,not speed,was the big problem with our AMB pickup signal discrepancies.When we pulled the wire down the AMB was reliable.When we pulled the loop wire up where it was reasonably safe,the AMB was unreliable.Just like Byrd said,it was a nightmare at the Internats in Huntsville.

For all you guys that didn't "personally"share in that experience here is my prayer,I for one hope that is one part of IMPBA history we never re-visit.

Now that I vented on that...........Ian said the system they are using in Europe works quite well.

What size are the transponders are they using?

 

[Chris Wood]

For all you guys that didn't "personally"share in that experience here is my prayer,I for one hope that is one part of IMPBA history we never re-visit.

Rod i remember that dam thing.. screwed me out of a possible us-1 with 20 hydro..

I know they work on cars but when we raced we still had problems sometimes with picking up the cars.

chris

 

[El Zorro]

The AMB system that was used by IMPBA in the 1990's was definitly a step in the right direction in scoring races. Terry Keeley got the ball rolling on this one and did a lot of the initial testing which sold the idea to IMPBA. Only thing about this was, it was something new, and it took some time to set up and operate. People didn't want to take the time to understand the system, much less set it up and actually use it. What we don't understand, we don't like, right? It might make us look stupid. Another problem we had with the AMB system was some of the people that DID use it didn't take care of it. Transponders were lost because they were not mounted properly in the boats; other parts of the system were returned broken, lost and even WET! When the system was used at the 1999 Internats I believe we only had 2 or 3 boats that did not get scored by the system during their heat because the transponder did not have enough charge to give off a signal. This and one outrigger hydro that took out the wires when it flipped at the start/finish line ( took about 45 minutes to fix ) certainly did not make the 1999 Internats a "disaster". As Bill touched on in an earlier post, we were using 2 sets of transponders each day and charging them overnight ( 12 to 14 hours at best ). AMB said that they needed to be charged a MINIMUM of 36 hours to be fully charged. We needed 4 sets of transponders to safely run an Internats. I brought this up to the Board on more than one occasion and they didn't want to spend the money for any more transponders. When John Finch stopped taking care of the AMB system and I left office it was all downhill from there.

I am sure that they have improved these systems in the years since, but I don't believe that IMPBA is willing to get involved with this anytime soon. Seems like there are other concerns that some people would rather ***** and complain about.............

Dick Tyndall

 

[Ian Folkson]

I do not agree about the problems in Norway the boxes AMB make now are much stronger than the old ones. The signal only triggers after the second line is passed and it is true signal strength can be speed dependant but it is the number of hits from the transponder that matters. AMB could not beleive it when the boaters here and in germany used 20meter lines. I also discovered that removing any link between the 2 lines helped. Another problem is the rechargeable transponders they do not put out as much as a personal one. Also running personal ones through a receiver plug reduces the signal because nearly every receiver has a circuit to reduce voltage. I run a y lead after the switch so the transponder gets a full 6 volts. BBK and me have proved that the more voltage up to 7.2 the stronger the signal. One problem for the Hydro racers is that the start was on the left and it takes some getting used to. The hits we were getting were strong and quite precise. If you stop a boat after it goes under 1 line it does not count until it drifts past the next line. Quite precise i would say. BBk are going to do some more tests with high speed passes to get a difinitive height to run the lines. Other factors are that the lines absorb water and this causes noise on the lines this is simply cured by wiping the lines in the morning before racing if they have been left out on the lake. Another development in France has been they have a 5 times signal booster on the line which means that the many carbon boats there still get a good signal.

Naviga will keep using it and I hope BBK will continue to improve the system for boats.It also makes the start judges life easier as false starts are known instantly.

Its time to be dragged into the World of modern electronics there are very few forms of racing today that do not use transponder systems. In fact you may see other company names on many of the racing car series but underneathe the tecnology is AMB.

Ian

 

[Tim Kish]

You have to ask yourself do the benefits warant the cost , is

it worth spending that much money on something so we don't have to count laps with our fingers ?

I will never forget what the 97 Nats in Elmira were like with this system , it was a complete nightmare.

Most heats people used the counter board that Elmira has because the system could not be trusted.

So many boats did not register starts , lost transponders , chasing people down who forgot to take them of their boats after a heat , I could go on and on so much confusion.

It was awful , how do I know I worked the pits the entire week <_< .

Tim K

 

[El Zorro]

You have to ask yourself do the benefits warant the cost , is

it worth spending that much money on something so we don't have to count laps with our fingers ?

I will never forget what the 97 Nats in Elmira were like with this system , it was a complete nightmare.

Most heats people used the counter board that Elmira has because the system could not be trusted.

So many boats did not register starts , lost transponders , chasing people down who forgot to take them of their boats after a heat , I could go on and on so much confusion.

It was awful , how do I know I worked the pits the entire week <_< .

Tim K

The biggest problem at the 1997 Elmira Internats was the fact that the host club, which in order to get the bid for the Internats that year, agreed to use the AMB system AND ALSO use it at their Spring race ( before the Internats ) to get familar with the system. When John Finch and I showed up for the Internats they had NEVER OPENED THE BOXES! Tracy Dahbura and Patty Zelasko ( I believe ) ran the AMB during the week and did a hell of a job, I thought. Members of the host club did very little to help with the AMB system or to set up the timing system for the Timed Events. The biggest problem with using the AMB that year was keeping the transponders charged ( again ) and racers not returning them after their Heat. I would hardly call this one a "complete nightmare", especially since so many people from "out of town" filled in to keep the show going. Again, what you don't understand and don't know anything about, you don't like..........

Dick Tyndall

 

[Tim Kish]

You have to ask yourself do the benefits warant the cost , is

it worth spending that much money on something so we don't have to count laps with our fingers ?

I will never forget what the 97 Nats in Elmira were like with this system , it was a complete nightmare.

Most heats people used the counter board that Elmira has because the system could not be trusted.

So many boats did not register starts , lost transponders , chasing people down who forgot to take them of their boats after a heat , I could go on and on so much confusion.

It was awful , how do I know I worked the pits the entire week <_< .

Tim K

The biggest problem at the 1997 Elmira Internats was the fact that the host club, which in order to get the bid for the Internats that year, agreed to use the AMB system AND ALSO use it at their Spring race ( before the Internats ) to get familar with the system. When John Finch and I showed up for the Internats they had NEVER OPENED THE BOXES! Tracy Dahbura and Patty Zelasko ( I believe ) ran the AMB during the week and did a hell of a job, I thought. Members of the host club did very little to help with the AMB system or to set up the timing system for the Timed Events. The biggest problem with using the AMB that year was keeping the transponders charged ( again ) and racers not returning them after their Heat. I would hardly call this one a "complete nightmare", especially since so many people from "out of town" filled in to keep the show going. Again, what you don't understand and don't know anything about, you don't like..........

Dick Tyndall

I sat there all week working in the pits and witnessed so many problems with the system that it was just not worth using in an event of this size at least until all the bugs could be worked out .

How long was the system used ?

Tim K

 

[El Zorro]

Hi Tim,

I believe that the AMB system was used at 3 Internats.........97', 98', and 99'. The IMPBA Board really wanted to see this system work, but the biggest problem was getting enough people to use it and teaching them HOW to operate it. The wires had to be put up a certain way or they didn't work like they should. We needed more transponders. It was always an "experiment in action". This was something that IMPBA tried that was obviously ahead of it's time. The Europeans seem to be having some success with this. We'll let them refine it and maybe a few years down the road look at it again.............maybe.

Dick Tyndall

 

[Jay Stone]

Most car tracks require racers to purchase transponders. It's an initial price, but can be used anywhere the AMB system is used.

 

[Marty Davis]

Hi Tim,

I believe that the AMB system was used at 3 Internats.........97', 98', and 99'. The IMPBA Board really wanted to see this system work, but the biggest problem was getting enough people to use it and teaching them HOW to operate it. The wires had to be put up a certain way or they didn't work like they should. We needed more transponders. It was always an "experiment in action". This was something that IMPBA tried that was obviously ahead of it's time. The Europeans seem to be having some success with this. We'll let them refine it and maybe a few years down the road look at it again.............maybe.

Dick Tyndall

Dick is entirely correct on each instance.

The Indy Club used it for many Hydro Masters with great success. The tuning of the boxes controlled when the wires picked up the signal and you could really affect the place that they triggered. It was possible to turn up the sensitivity to the point that it was incorrect in the way that it called the start (early). Also, you could turn down the sensitivity to the point that it triggered (late).

The scoring at the Elmira Internats was only salvaged by the dedication of Tracy Dahbura and Patty Zelasko because as Dick said, NOBODY had opened the AMB box before the Internats.

I am sure that the new systems are super and would be useful for our hobby. The individual transponders that work off the receiver battery would be great because they would never have to be charged. The lack of charging of the transponders and the water intrusion was about the only problem with the system that led to it's lack of use.

I also doubt that the IMPBA will buy such a system, especially with such a decline in membership in the last few years and a shortage of $$$$.

Marty Davis