3.5 Tunnel SAW record

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Gary,

I was saying that the correct diameter is the REAL KEY to propellers. Sure pitch

is speed,but not if the diameter is too big. Our little motors have more problems

with diameter than with pitch. Diameter also has a lot to do with the propellers

efficency. I think a smaller propeller run deeper for efficency is the way to go

in most of our applications. I may be way off with some of my thoughts about

propellers,but this is what I have tried and it works for me. I learn something

new everyday, so maybe someone else has a different approach that they would

like to share with us. :D

Thanks,

Mark Sholund

Props-4-U
 
From my limited testing it seems diameter has more of an effect on the handling than a pitched up blade of a smaller diameter. Would anyone else agree with that?
 
such a shame this topic died of it was really usefull learning material that was brought here not just tunnels but for anyboater.

any small chance there is more Rod or is this what's to going quick?

i don't think you have to give numbers just ways of thinking are cool like you have allready showed us.

Tom
 
I'm too busy building my SAW boat and engines. I haven't had time to post here lately. I will be running a "prototype" 21 outboard powerhead at the record trials in april if I get it done. I'm also building a SAW "C" hydro (IMPBA).

Bob
 
Tom,

I haven't been checking this thread lately.

There are not any secrets in this boys world.

What numbers do you want and I am sure Tommy Lee or my self will be glad to give you what we've got. :blink: :D
 
What an interesting thread! Allot of you guys have made a real study of your hull designs. Very Cool!

It is certainly correct, that a tunnel boat design should match its intended purpose. The tricky balance of aerodynamic forces and hydrodynamic forces is unique to tunnel hull design. That balance and the location of the dynamic center of gravity (Dynamic CG) changes for each velocity - it's also right that a hull design is a compromise.

We can optimize design for acceleration to a certain velocity, or optimize for top speed - but to achieve both is a compromise, since the balance of forces will be quite different. Optimum sponson design is much different for acceleration, and for top speed, and for turning. (By the way, I'm not much in favour of 'rocker' in sponson design, as it is a design "patch" that makes up for design deficiencies elsewhere).

Check out Tunnel Boat Design book - it details aerodynamic and hydrodynamic forces at play, how to design tunnel hull for purpose, and even gives formulae for doing it.
 
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Rod,

As i asked before i am interested in the relation between the factors of the tunnel,

like height length and width but also the diffuser effect,

did you go with what you knew or do some extensive testing on this matter?

thanks

Tom
 
Jimboat said:
What an interesting thread!  Allot of you guys have made a real study of your hull designs.  Very Cool!
It is certainly correct, that a tunnel boat design should match its intended purpose.  The tricky balance of aerodynamic forces and hydrodynamic forces is unique to tunnel hull design.  That balance and the location of the dynamic center of gravity (Dynamic CG) changes for each velocity - it's also right that a hull design is a compromise.

We can optimize design for acceleration to a certain velocity, or optimize for top speed - but to achieve both is a compromise, since the balance of forces will be quite different.  Optimum sponson design is much different for acceleration, and for top speed, and for turning.  (By the way, I'm not much in favour of 'rocker' in sponson design, as it is a design "patch" that makes up for design deficiencies elsewhere).

Check out Tunnel Boat Design book - it details aerodynamic and hydrodynamic forces at play, how to design tunnel hull for purpose, and even gives formulae for doing it.
(By the way, I'm not much in favour of 'rocker' in sponson design, as it is a design "patch" that makes up for design deficiencies elsewhere).

BINGO.... could not have said this any better..

Grimracer
 
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Tom,

There are no meaningful relationships to height,width etc that I know of.

I really do not know what you mean by the diffuser effect.

Most everything that Tommy Lee and I learned about specific design parameters we learned emperically.I'll bet between the two of use we have built over 150 test boats.

About "aero dynamics" here is what we did learn.There ain't nothing aerodynamic about a tunnel boat.Tunnel boats are aerodynamic train wrecks.

Back over 15 years ago David Lee [Tommys brother]was commisioned by a big $$$$$ full scale tunnel boat owner to build an aerodynamically slippery full size tunnel for Formula One racing.

Well David hired this very high dollar aeronautical engineer that specialized in aero-dynamics and the engineer designed a boat that was supposed to be slippery in the air.David then had Tommy Lee build a 1/4 scale model of the boat and they took it to a wind tunnel at the Huntsville space center for extensive wind tunnel testing at about $400.00 an hour as I recall.

Well after many many hours and a ton of $$$$$$ ,the short story is a tunnel boat is about areodynamic as a brick.

There aren't enough days left in my life to start a physics class here but there is turbulent flow and dirty eddys all over any tunnel boat.Every place you have a sharp corner or sharp vertical to horizontal intersection you have a aerodynamic nightmare.

Here are some rules of thumb that we do know that does work.

1.Flat sponsons[no dihedral] go fast but don't turn worth a sxxt.Flat sponsons [no dihedral]really lack directional control and react significantly to propeller torque.

2.Narrow tunnels and boats with reduced frontal area are great on SAW boats.

3.If you don't want to run a turn fin,15 degrees on a 2" wide sponson bottom is the minimun dihedral you need to turn the boat.As you increase the diheidral up to say 19 degrees,the boat will turn great but as the dihedral increases straight line speed [mph/kph] decreases.

4.I absolutely disagree with the previous post that rocker in sponsons is put there to make up for a design deficiency.That is total BS.

Full scale tunnel boats use long flat sponson bottoms to turn very sharp.Full scale tunnels make the boat hook to turn.

If you want a model boat that is very user friendly to drive and set-up you put in a bit of rocker.

Long flat wide sponsons are very user unfriendly in model tunnels.To go fast you have to run the boat very nose high and the minute you wet them up the boats speed reduces significantly and the boat hooks.

5.Non trip chines on a properly designed sponson are absolutely useless.In fact they they help the boat "trip" rather than discouraging tripping.

Actually so-called "non-trips" should be called "corner trips" to be exact.

6.Rounded edges on a sponson bottom are usually the kiss of death.

7.Control of the release of water off the bottom of a sponson is the biggest factor to keeping a tunnel boat on the water.

8.Super light weight is not-necessary on a SAW boat.In fact tunnel boats can be too light.

9."Everything" you do on a tunnel boat is a compromise.

I'm tired!!!! :p
 
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4.I absolutely disagree with the previous post that rocker in sponsons is put there to make up for a design deficiency.That is total BS.

Full scale tunnel boats use long flat sponson bottoms to turn very sharp.Full scale tunnels make the boat hook to turn.

If you want a model boat that is very user friendly to drive and set-up you put in a bit of rocker.

Long flat wide sponsons are very user unfriendly in model tunnels.To go fast you have to run the boat very nose high and the minute you wet them up the boats speed reduces significantly and the boat hooks.

Rod. The opposite is what i have found in testing.

Here is what i have found. Take it for what its worth.. Also please do not assume that this is a backlash of any kind.

What I have found in testing…ie..Grim, mike, Z, gangsteroflove….

To make a rocker boat run a course fast you must trim the boat with its tits in the air. The rockers round profile as you know creates ….. (we have been over this Bernoulli junk 100 times)..

I have found that to get the rocker boat to turn (again thinking course setup) you have to get the boat back in the water. This requires you to jump off the power and settle the boat in the water..(hey same is true for a flat sections hulls,, got to lift here also). This is the biggest difference that I find in testing however.

As the boat (rocker) sets it grabs, (the Bernoulli junk we talk about from time to time). The boat releases and it is likely to blow off. Its also MPH slower in exit as it has to recover from this crazy problem. This also makes it tough to drive as it can turn somewhat unexpectedly (especially with the wrong prop). Get a 21 rocker boat over 47mph in heat trim. you got your haaaannnnnnds full.. We want more then 47 in heat trim…sport or mod..

Flat section hull on the other hand (again just what we found in testing) does not require the boat to run tits up.. You still have to lift so as not to over bake the corner but after doing so the boat is not locked and does not lock to the water and, its apex and exit speeds are higher..

Am I wrong…Could be.. However we are seeing lots and lots of wins with flat section hulls.. Some big ones too..

District champs, Masters, Internats and most importantly. club racing week after week..

Could be just the following statement… tunnels need to fit the pilots driving style. You can do lots of tuning on a hydro to get it to (sort of) come to your style. Im not sure this can be said of tunnels.

If the shoe fits…

Mike
 
Re: Flat Sponsons

The sponson bottoms on all my tunnels are flat. When the boat is placed on a flat surface and the transon pressed down the sponsons evenly touch the flat surface. I apply the sponson bottom sheeting in two pieces to insure the area is flat.

JD
 
Geraghty said:
6.Rounded edges on a sponson bottom are usually the kiss of death.7.Control of the release of water off the bottom of a sponson is the biggest factor to keeping a tunnel boat on the water.
Rod, said rounded edges are the kiss of death. However, I've seen some rounded edges, mostly done by too much paint run very good.

What's the total drawback of the rounded edges and how far back of the rear should the sponsons be "Blueprinted" so they are flat and straight??
 
Good point Jerry...now the question is how much flat...and...then..what is rocker..a non flat area right...? Maybe, but i define this as a VERY short flat area if any at all.. Typically well behind the CG.

Mike
 

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