!/2 Mill start's

[tnrcboatracer]

other than that- I have no objections and the race can be run a little faster, anyone that works a race will agree- the faster we are done on Sunday and get the racers that have a ride home in front of them on the road the better.

Andy

Am I missing something? How does half mill make a race go faster? There's still 2 1/2 minutes of pit and mill time before the start, isn't there?

 

[Bill Gibson]

other than that- I have no objections and the race can be run a little faster, anyone that works a race will agree- the faster we are done on Sunday and get the racers that have a ride home in front of them on the road the better.

Andy

Am I missing something? How does half mill make a race go faster? There's still 2 1/2 minutes of pit and mill time before the start, isn't there?

Jon, i think thats where dropping the clock to 30 seconds with the drivers permission comes into play....if you are IMPBA then it doesnt matter either way ...as Don stated, IMPBA doesnt allow it.

 

[Mark Poole ModVP]

I am always amazed at how many RC racers know very little of life size boat racing classes, rules, etc. The full mill/half mill argument is just one of the differences between NAMBA and IMPBA. Half mill always existed in full size hydro and outboard racing. One of the coolest things to watch at a full size boat race where they have a start clock is the strategy played out during mill. From keeler to unlimited hydro some of those drivers were masters at timing when to cut the course and get on the clock.

Now, in RC we are turning 10 second laps, not 30-45 second laps. Everything happens much quicker and the driver is watching his boat run not sitting in it looking out around him. I believe this is one more thing that needs to be addressed because the speeds of RC boats have increased dramatically in recent years. I am sure NAMBA did this way back when to recreate some of the life size effects into RC racing, because the unlimiteds did it. If you can throttle your boat and mill in lane 8, if you have to, then you should be able to manage the clock.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Cutting across the infield is part of racing. KNOWING WHEN to cut across the infield is something to be learned and mastered. The half mill rule makes it no longer a matter of trying to out think the rest of the field, it makes having the fastest accelerating boat on the water a priority. For those that follow the unlimited season, would you rather watch the drivers jockey for lanes or pick them on the beach? I'd be willing to bet that the Elam's 3 wins this season were due to lane choise ON THE BEACH. Forget about the half mill rule and let the drivers duke it out before the race as well for the whole 2.5 minutes.

 

[Bill Gibson]

While i certainly respect anyones opinion who is against half mill starts, i am having some difficulty understanding the reasoning...which leads me to ask the question for those against em...have those who are against it actually raced in a heat or heats using a half mill start or a heat with 30 seconds takin off of the clock?

Why does one have to participate in a half mill race, or with the 30 second clock thing, to have an opinion? Put quite simply, half mill gives an advantage to the person who did not do a good job managing the clock. At the same time, it penalizes those who were not as good at managing the clock when those who were off the clock cut a half lap and get with the pack. So, in response, I think many of us have "some difficulty understanding the reasoning" why people would enact rules that would benefit the person who did not manage time well at the expense of those who did.

Chuck, i guess i can see your point..kind of on the advantage thing, but there is another side of that to consider...even with a half mill start there is still half of the course to use up to get to the start line..and completely blow the start! If yer late yer in back..if yer early yer down a lap...either way youve blown the start(i should know as im pretty good at both!)How big of an advantage is it really? As i said earlier in another post if half mill starts were banned that would never stop me from racing..its not that big a deal..i guess im surpised by a few of the responses being so dead against even considering such a thing unless they have done it or at least been to a race that it was allowed.I mentioned to Don that maybe ill change my tune when i tear up my or someone else,s boat and if that happens ill be the first one to tell everybody i was dead wrong.no problem there at all, but to this point it simply hasnt happened.And at least i gave it a try...not trying to upset anyone.. just good lively discussion along with a friendly difference of opinion!

 

[LarryConrad]

You have to go all the way around the course during the race. So it makes sense to go all the way around the course when you mill.

 

[Andy Greene]

I guess what really matters is, Im going racing (again) no matter what rules or choices of 1/2 mill - 30 sec clock-3 or 5 buoy corner- 50 laps WHATEVER

In the end , I get to run my RC boat with a bunch of good friends and have good times, I will race and conform to what our area chooses to do and be happy I have a place to do it- period.

Some interesting views have been brought up that open my eyes in the areas of someone being better at getting on the clock than others-

I cannot disagree , It takes away some of the advantage to better clock management.

BUT - Im not letting it stop me from having fun-

FUN

thats whats its all supposed to be about. B)

Andy

 

[Mark Bullard]

I don't like the idea of 1/2 mill course. If you have some fast boats running in lane one and someone cuts the course and jams himself into lane one how do you call that?

As for as a 30 second jump to on the clock I could get use to that. The clock that I just finished for the Dallas club has this built into it the software and works very well. Any IMPBA club can use the 30 second jump or a 1/2 mill rule so long as it is on their race flyer and not a safety issue. The rule book only covers the Internats and to provide guide line for local races.

 

[Tom Foley]

I am always amazed at how many RC racers know very little of life size boat racing classes, rules, etc. The full mill/half mill argument is just one of the differences between NAMBA and IMPBA. Half mill always existed in full size hydro and outboard racing. One of the coolest things to watch at a full size boat race where they have a start clock is the strategy played out during mill. From keeler to unlimited hydro some of those drivers were masters at timing when to cut the course and get on the clock.

Now, in RC we are turning 10 second laps, not 30-45 second laps. Everything happens much quicker and the driver is watching his boat run not sitting in it looking out around him. I believe this is one more thing that needs to be addressed because the speeds of RC boats have increased dramatically in recent years. I am sure NAMBA did this way back when to recreate some of the life size effects into RC racing, because the unlimiteds did it. If you can throttle your boat and mill in lane 8, if you have to, then you should be able to manage the clock.

Bingo !!! I hate crawling starts ...hated it in Stock Outboard APBA Racing ...don't like it in RC ..win lose or draw I want to hit the line as close to wide open as I can . JMHO .

 

[PakMan]

I guess what really matters is, Im going racing (again) no matter what rules or choices of 1/2 mill - 30 sec clock-3 or 5 buoy corner- 50 laps WHATEVER

In the end , I get to run my RC boat with a bunch of good friends and have good times, I will race and conform to what our area chooses to do and be happy I have a place to do it- period.

Some interesting views have been brought up that open my eyes in the areas of someone being better at getting on the clock than others-

I cannot disagree , It takes away some of the advantage to better clock management.

BUT - Im not letting it stop me from having fun-

FUN

thats whats its all supposed to be about. B)

Andy

Andy,

You have provided a cool response, and in line with how I hope most view this hobby. You'd be amazed at just how 'adaptable' drivers can be when given new 'situations'. I have learned this once again at the AWESOME 2009 NAMBA NATS in Marysville this past month. What it always comes down to (without regard to full-mill, or 1/2 mill) is the driver. Ok, let's just assume the 1/2 mill lets some 'poor clock managers' get into the mix. Also, lets assume that the 'good drivers' know that this is a possibility. Anyone with me yet.... After racing multiple-hundreds of heats (if not low-thousands in competition), I can tell you that the best driver (best clock manager -vs- poor clock manager) will prevail in 1/2 mill, nearly the same percentage of the time as 'full mill racers', because they know the game. They trump the less-skilled, and they avoid the collisions... as well as draw penaltys. If you think your boat will get cut in 2, you're at least partially responsible for that...not that you were in violation, but that you should know how to 'draw the foul'. Educate the officiating crew, and drive defensively. Read that again. I'm not placing responsibility on the judges for this... it's on the driver to manage this possibility, but also to work with the officiating crew to enforce a relatively simple violation point... Mid-Back-stretch. The judges will help if they know where to look, and what to look for, and how to call-it consistently. I know that may raise some ire, but I've raced more than 30 years, and run over enough boats (because I'm right) to prove a point ( & pull an infraction if needed). If you don't want to collide-to-be-right, I think you need to work on the education of the rule with more force, or figure out how to get inside the guy that just moved you out. It's more than possible. , and will make you a better driver.

After doing this for more than 30 years, It appears to me that change is viewed as bad.

Let me know your thoughts.

Sincerely,

David Jensen

AKA: PakMan

P.S. - I have more input with regard to the 5-corner bouy situation if anyone wants to hear. Specifically with regard to the Nats I just attended in Wa.

 

[Michael Costanzo]

While i certainly respect anyones opinion who is against half mill starts, i am having some difficulty understanding the reasoning...which leads me to ask the question for those against em...have those who are against it actually raced in a heat or heats using a half mill start or a heat with 30 seconds takin off of the clock?

Why does one have to participate in a half mill race, or with the 30 second clock thing, to have an opinion? Put quite simply, half mill gives an advantage to the person who did not do a good job managing the clock. At the same time, it penalizes those who were not as good at managing the clock when those who were off the clock cut a half lap and get with the pack. So, in response, I think many of us have "some difficulty understanding the reasoning" why people would enact rules that would benefit the person who did not manage time well at the expense of those who did.

sorry pal i have to dissagree with you. the last guy in the water has to make 1 full lap in order to be on the lead lap.as far as what joe w said,you are traveling in a clock wise position and that is just the way it is.ask anyone who races NAMBA, the starts are much more exciting.i guess not to many people

here have raced dirt bikes! 40 guys at one go for the start, and some guys get thru and some don't. did it for many many years and it is dam exciting!! but i guess most guys with OCD and worried or scared!!

 

[tnrcboatracer]

...I mentioned to Don that maybe ill change my tune when i tear up my or someone else,s boat and if that happens ill be the first one to tell everybody i was dead wrong.no problem there at all, but to this point it simply hasnt happened.And at least i gave it a try...not trying to upset anyone.. just good lively discussion along with a friendly difference of opinion!

Think of this....In the event you tear up someone elses boat with a poorly decided half mill, are you willing to pay for the damage?

I've been on the receiving end of my daughter hitting a dead boat in a kids class heat, and the other kid's dad let us have it. He acted like she hit his boat on purpose. She went back to our pit in tears. After the retreive was finished, his boat wasn't even scuffed. The guy came back later and apologized, but the feelings were already hurt. My daughter was sharing my 20 mono which I was leading in points at the time, so we sure were trying to be careful, she just yanked the wheel at the wrong time.

My point is that everyone makes a mistake,and in my opinion half mill only adds to the possibility of a mistake.

 

[Michael Costanzo]

...I mentioned to Don that maybe ill change my tune when i tear up my or someone else,s boat and if that happens ill be the first one to tell everybody i was dead wrong.no problem there at all, but to this point it simply hasnt happened.And at least i gave it a try...not trying to upset anyone.. just good lively discussion along with a friendly difference of opinion!

Think of this....In the event you tear up someone elses boat with a poorly decided half mill, are you willing to pay for the damage?

I've been on the receiving end of my daughter hitting a dead boat in a kids class heat, and the other kid's dad let us have it. He acted like she hit his boat on purpose. She went back to our pit in tears. After the retreive was finished, his boat wasn't even scuffed. The guy came back later and apologized, but the feelings were already hurt. My daughter was sharing my 20 mono which I was leading in points at the time, so we sure were trying to be careful, she just yanked the wheel at the wrong time.

My point is that everyone makes a mistake,and in my opinion half mill only adds to the possibility of a mistake.

jon, i agree with you, everyone makes mistakes and that is part of the learning curve. i have been on both ends of the stick and it is part of racing.as a semipro drag racer i have made many mistakes and you learn from them,my father always told me "YOUR BEST LESSONS IN LIFE ARE YOUR MOST EXPENSIVE" IF YOU ARE AFRAID OF GOING RAIL TO RAIL YOU SHOULD STAY ON THE SHORE!

 

[tnrcboatracer]

And I agree that if I can't afford to throw the whole boat in the lake, I shouldn't be running it. But my point is why increase the possibility of a mishap? Half milling when you are in a full scale boat looking around is different than when driving an R/C boat from shore. I personally don't see half milling making up that much time, just run a full speed lap instead of a 1/2~3/4 speed half mill. My opinion is that if a full course boat has to avoid a half mill rentering the course, the half mill should get a DQ right then and there.

 

[TERMINATOR]

And I agree that if I can't afford to throw the whole boat in the lake, I shouldn't be running it. But my point is why increase the possibility of a mishap? Half milling when you are in a full scale boat looking around is different than when driving an R/C boat from shore. I personally don't see half milling making up that much time, just run a full speed lap instead of a 1/2~3/4 speed half mill. My opinion is that if a full course boat has to avoid a half mill rentering the course, the half mill should get a DQ right then and there.

i completely agree jon... my feeling is 5 bouy corners would rule and half mill would drool..lol

tk

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Here is the way the R/C Unlimiteds rulebook handles the cutting issue, covered in two different sections of the rulebook:

7. A “30 second no cut” starting procedue may be used at any R/CU race. This

procedure is the same as the “standard” starting format from the 3 minute

mark up to the .30 second mark. At the .30 second mark boats may no

longer cut through the infield. All boats must round all buoys in a “full mill”

until the start. Any boat cutting the course after the .30 mark will recieve a

one lap penalty.

4. Immediately following a boat’s launch, the boat must round the left turn. The

intent of this rule is to force a launched boat to enter the main straightaway

parallel rather than perpendicular to the flow of straightaway traffic. Any

boat violating this rule shall be assessed a one-lap penalty.

5. Milling boats may “cut” the course only from the front stretch (between the

exit buoy of turn four and the entrance buoy of turn one) and can enter the

back stretch only between the exit buoy of turn two and the entrance buoy of

turn three. Following the five-second mark, no boat may enter the infield of

the course. Any boat violating this rule shall be assessed a one-lap penalty.

I didn't look it up, but there are ways of being penalized resulting in forfiture of the right to cut the course. One other thing of note is that the boat outside of the bouy line has the right of way so standard overlap rules do apply when re-entering the racecourse

Just so you know, this does work, very well I might add. It also prevents the kinds off accidents some have already mentioned concerns about in those last 30 seconds

 

[Bill Gibson]

I guess what really matters is, Im going racing (again) no matter what rules or choices of 1/2 mill - 30 sec clock-3 or 5 buoy corner- 50 laps WHATEVER

In the end , I get to run my RC boat with a bunch of good friends and have good times, I will race and conform to what our area chooses to do and be happy I have a place to do it- period.

Some interesting views have been brought up that open my eyes in the areas of someone being better at getting on the clock than others-

I cannot disagree , It takes away some of the advantage to better clock management.

BUT - Im not letting it stop me from having fun-

FUN

thats whats its all supposed to be about. B)

Andy

Now THATS what im talkin bout!!! Andy, would you also agree that no matter how hard we all try not to hurt someone else,s boat that the only way to keep our lil toys in perfect condition is to LEAVE EM ON THE SHELF!! Even a neatnclean freak like myself can accept that because i am aware that it is RACING that we do!

 

[Don Ferrette]

Any IMPBA club can use the 30 second jump or a 1/2 mill rule so long as it is on their race flyer and not a safety issue. The rule book only covers the Internats and to provide guide line for local races.

The rule book only covers the Internats and to provide guide line for local races?? Say what???? Sorry Mark but I definitely will disagree with you here. The IMPBA rules are there for a reason, not to be "optional" whenever one sees fit. What part of "will not be allowed under any circumstances" is not clear about the rule regarding pit time? That sure doesn't sound "optional" to me......

IMPBA rulebook section G Contest and Racing Rules-

4. Re-Starts, Re-Runs and Heat Delays

a. Under normal conditions, re-starts and re-runs will not be allowed.

However, if one or more boats is rendered out of control before the start or

during the course of the race and cannot be shut down, the Referee, in the

interest of safety, will call all of the boats still running back to the pits. The

heat will be re-run in the same round with all of the boats that were still

running, except for the boat or boats that caused the heat to be stopped.

Boats that were dead will not be allowed to re-start.

b. Delay or cancellation of Pit Time will not be allowed under any

circumstances other than course problems, and shall be called by the proper

contest official

And the definition of Pit Time-

3. Heat Racing Rules

a. Pit Time

1. A Pit Time of two minutes is allowed for the starting of all engines and to

allow all boats to be launched.

2. If no entrants have started engines and are under way at the expiration of Pit

Time, the heat shall be declared "No Contest". It will not be rescheduled.

This is section G Contest and Racing rules, not section E which specifically lists the International Regatta or Internats as we like to call it. Also as per section E 3-A that covers sanctions of regular races it says-

A. A sanction is an authorization or approval of an event, which binds the holders of the event to

comply with the IMPBA rules and regulations and guarantees that the results of said events will

be recognized as official. Sanctions will only be granted to clubs holding events on waters

covered by the IMPBA insurance policy. No sanctions will be issued to clubs unless they have

previously obtained an IMPBA insurance certificate covering their waters.

This thing about deviating from the rules as long as it's on the flyer started out as a way to offer different classes and course options and has been stretched, twisted and manipulated into people thinking they can do whatever they feel like whenever they feel like it if it's on the flyer, sorry it just doesn't work that way. The rules are in place to insure fairness and consistency for all our members from race to race and district to district. Mark, we know each other well and you know that I'm all about racing and wanting everyone to have a good time but this just put it on the flyer thing has gotten way out of hand. I guess that is yet another part of the "gray matter" that will need to be cleared up in upcoming rule book clean up. <_<

 

[Joe Warren]

Any IMPBA club can use the 30 second jump or a 1/2 mill rule so long as it is on their race flyer and not a safety issue. The rule book only covers the Internats and to provide guide line for local races.

The rule book only covers the Internats and to provide guide line for local races?? Say what???? Sorry Mark but I definitely will disagree with you here. The IMPBA rules are there for a reason, not to be "optional" whenever one sees fit. What part of "will not be allowed under any circumstances" is not clear about the rule regarding pit time? That sure doesn't sound "optional" to me......

IMPBA rulebook section G Contest and Racing Rules-

4. Re-Starts, Re-Runs and Heat Delays

a. Under normal conditions, re-starts and re-runs will not be allowed.

However, if one or more boats is rendered out of control before the start or

during the course of the race and cannot be shut down, the Referee, in the

interest of safety, will call all of the boats still running back to the pits. The

heat will be re-run in the same round with all of the boats that were still

running, except for the boat or boats that caused the heat to be stopped.

Boats that were dead will not be allowed to re-start.

b. Delay or cancellation of Pit Time will not be allowed under any

circumstances other than course problems, and shall be called by the proper

contest official

And the definition of Pit Time-

3. Heat Racing Rules

a. Pit Time

1. A Pit Time of two minutes is allowed for the starting of all engines and to

allow all boats to be launched.

2. If no entrants have started engines and are under way at the expiration of Pit

Time, the heat shall be declared "No Contest". It will not be rescheduled.

This is section G Contest and Racing rules, not section E which specifically lists the International Regatta or Internats as we like to call it. Also as per section E 3-A that covers sanctions of regular races it says-

A. A sanction is an authorization or approval of an event, which binds the holders of the event to

comply with the IMPBA rules and regulations and guarantees that the results of said events will

be recognized as official. Sanctions will only be granted to clubs holding events on waters

covered by the IMPBA insurance policy. No sanctions will be issued to clubs unless they have

previously obtained an IMPBA insurance certificate covering their waters.

This thing about deviating from the rules as long as it's on the flyer started out as a way to offer different classes and course options and has been stretched, twisted and manipulated into people thinking they can do whatever they feel like whenever they feel like it if it's on the flyer, sorry it just doesn't work that way. The rules are in place to insure fairness and consistency for all our members from race to race and district to district. Mark, we know each other well and you know that I'm all about racing and wanting everyone to have a good time but this just put it on the flyer thing has gotten way out of hand. I guess that is yet another part of the "gray matter" that will need to be cleared up in upcoming rule book clean up. <_<

I believe the 1/2 mill has ran its last lap in IMPBA?????? :lol: :lol: Bring it thru the middle Son.... If you make it??? We will let you race??? :lol: :blink:

 

[Will Gallagher]

I have raced both NAMBA and IMPBA. I personally prefer a properly configured IMPBA course with entrance buoys. I have never seen a mishap due to half mill during a NAMBA race. Most mishaps occur in turn one.

The NAMBA half mill is a great option when boats are being launched.

Either way, Lets Race!