RTR class(es)

[piper_chuck]

In no way did I mean that the veterans don't help out the new guy. I think they do. If that's how my comment came across I did not mean it that way. Sorry

About the nitro. I was hoping there were testers out there that could quick check the nitro content. This way you would be able to run you own fuel. If the clubs do have to provide fuel I agree that they need to advertise what brand of fuel they are using so people can set there boat up. One Question: Would using a standard set of fuel stop some veterans from racing. i.e. Say Chuck is sponsored by Wildcat and the club has decided to allow only Trinity fuel in their boats. Would Chuck being bound by sponsorship not run because he can't run his sponsors fuel. I don't know how it works so I'm asking.

Wow, I'm going to get a sponsorship from this? Cool!

I don't know if there's an easy way to check nitro percentages or not. I do know that in several other types of competition, the fuel is provided to ensure everyone is running the same thing. Considering how little fuel these boats burn, it's not going to be a huge amount. Keeping the nitro level down will also reduce expense.

I also believe as Anthony said about a modified RTR class to help keep up the interest. As you know from the other thread most people have modified theirs already anyway. I don't think you are going to find many "stock" RTR out there anyway. If you had a Straight stock class I think I would buy another boat instead of putting my old one back to stock.

I think the question of stock versus some mods versus nearly anything goes is going to need quite a bit more discussion before it settles down. I can't say which is the majority. I do know there is a group who tweaks everything. However, I also know there is a group who runs things pretty close to the way they came. This second group could be the majority, but nobody hears from them because they just quietly run their boats. For example, there are some who mod the inside of their outboard engines to extra power. Personally, every outboard engine I've ever run has been 100% stock with the exception of the prop and perhaps steering arms.

For the sake of new people, I think it's critical that clubs prioritize a stock class above a mod class. Otherwise, they'll end up in a situation where everyone has modded their boats and a newcomer will be discouraged when they discover that their boat is significantly slower than other boats of the same model and that they have to go out and spend lots extra to compete.

Food for thought on the mod subject, at what point do mods to an RTR boat justify moving it into an established class? For example, would upgrading a Vegas to a .21 would mean it should go to Sport 20, or would that be part of the "unlimited" that's been mentioned? Similar question for the Aeromarine Mean Machine. If it was upgraded to a .21, or even .45, should it still be an RTR, or should it be moved to another already established class such as B or D hydro?

 

[anthony_marquart]

My thought was you could modify but not go over the original engine size, for the mod class.

In no way did I mean that the veterans don't help out the new guy. I think they do. If that's how my comment came across I did not mean it that way. Sorry

About the nitro. I was hoping there were testers out there that could quick check the nitro content. This way you would be able to run you own fuel. If the clubs do have to provide fuel I agree that they need to advertise what brand of fuel they are using so people can set there boat up. One Question: Would using a standard set of fuel stop some veterans from racing. i.e. Say Chuck is sponsored by Wildcat and the club has decided to allow only Trinity fuel in their boats. Would Chuck being bound by sponsorship not run because he can't run his sponsors fuel. I don't know how it works so I'm asking.

Wow, I'm going to get a sponsorship from this? Cool!

I don't know if there's an easy way to check nitro percentages or not. I do know that in several other types of competition, the fuel is provided to ensure everyone is running the same thing. Considering how little fuel these boats burn, it's not going to be a huge amount. Keeping the nitro level down will also reduce expense.

I also believe as Anthony said about a modified RTR class to help keep up the interest. As you know from the other thread most people have modified theirs already anyway. I don't think you are going to find many "stock" RTR out there anyway. If you had a Straight stock class I think I would buy another boat instead of putting my old one back to stock.

I think the question of stock versus some mods versus nearly anything goes is going to need quite a bit more discussion before it settles down. I can't say which is the majority. I do know there is a group who tweaks everything. However, I also know there is a group who runs things pretty close to the way they came. This second group could be the majority, but nobody hears from them because they just quietly run their boats. For example, there are some who mod the inside of their outboard engines to extra power. Personally, every outboard engine I've ever run has been 100% stock with the exception of the prop and perhaps steering arms.

For the sake of new people, I think it's critical that clubs prioritize a stock class above a mod class. Otherwise, they'll end up in a situation where everyone has modded their boats and a newcomer will be discouraged when they discover that their boat is significantly slower than other boats of the same model and that they have to go out and spend lots extra to compete.

Food for thought on the mod subject, at what point do mods to an RTR boat justify moving it into an established class? For example, would upgrading a Vegas to a .21 would mean it should go to Sport 20, or would that be part of the "unlimited" that's been mentioned? Similar question for the Aeromarine Mean Machine. If it was upgraded to a .21, or even .45, should it still be an RTR, or should it be moved to another already established class such as B or D hydro?

 

[Frosty]

I think if they modify a RTR to over .21 then it should be in the sport 20 class. anything under that could run in a modified RTR class.

 

[piper_chuck]

Piper from day one you have had a problem with us selling parts...its very clear in your post. Find a post please that I asked anyone to buy my stuff here

Want an example of you hyping your stuff here? Here's one. Someone asked about hopup tricks for a boat. A person who sells props replied with a suggestion on a prop. Even though he sells props, he had enough class to not mention it, he just recommended a prop. Never wanting to miss an opportunity, you jumped in with a "We do carry hop up parts for the..." SOS James. You do provide information, but there's often a commercial to go along with it.

you have down sized me and my company from day one, the people on RCU know it and it seems they are going to find out here to.....You seem to be the one who thinks we support this because we sell parts...

This isn't RCU, don't embarrass yourself by talking about what you did there. As far as your agenda, there's WAY more than one person with this impression!

we support it because its all we do...RTR...plain and simple. With no places to race, we want more events held for our boats. But now we have move to your class sport 20...also...you might like our turn fin...or am I not aloud to make turn fins for these boats because I dont have rank? Its ok we dont sell them we give them away, make you feel better. And if you would spend more time watchin instead of talking about us badly and worried how many parts we sell...you might see whats really going on here. I know you will respond to me with some more hate, but save if for the PM box and lets make some events... Funny how I never said your name in my last post, or have I spoke of any of my parts, but you are the one who responds so hostal mentioning our parts selling again...dont worry we are use to it. Now calling me a hypocrit is real dumb, because we didnt say all big boys are bad...we said my start came from getting treated badly by a big boy...at the pond. Your a big boy treating me and my employees bad...right sport 20 points leader for your district and I aint even at your pond..not even in the same state...So now ask me why I got a so called chip on my shoulder...some might put up with your crap, but Im afraid to tell you...I am not the one.

James, give it a rest, your agenda is obvious. I already asked you to not turn this thread into another commercial for your parts, but you're at it again.

And as far as the hipocracy, unless you've got a bad memory, you KNOW what I'm talking about. So give it a rest and follow your suggestion of confining further off-topic responses to private communcation channels.

OK now lets answer your questions...what do you do if a guy wants to race and he doent have the five hundred dollar boat..he has the 300 dollar boat? He races stock. I will say it again three classes...STOCK, MODIFIED, UNLIMITED..covers it all...car engines too

Wasn't it Kelly who said that?

Without getting in to it again with you Chuck...lets make rules, races, and rematches... :angry:

Now as far as allowing upgrade to the RTR class...they should be allowed for one reason...I have not seen one stock RTR...its a hobby...you make it better as you learn..so to make a stock class would be what we have now...no boats racing..Because as I said before the rules made dont fit the class...and if you make new ones, that make the boats run stock only...it will be the samething again... Rules that dont fit what is going on in the RTR industry.

Since you sell parts, your audience is largely people who are interested in buying parts. Of course you haven't seen stock boats. I'm suggesting, and have received feedback that confirms it, that there is another group of people out there that have no interest in sinking lots of extra money in their boat. They want to be able to put their boat in the water and have fun. And contrary to marketing hype designed to sell parts, many do just that. If you want evidence of this, look at the growth in Sport 20 tunnel racing.

You constantly talk about money...it is proven it doesnt take hop up parts to win...it takes skill and persistants.

Yup, and that's what stock classes are all about, showing people that they don't have to throw money into hopup parts to have fun.

but what is stock? Can I cut half of my turn fin off and call it stock? cutting holes in the boat..can i call this stock? How about putting on a three blade on...stock? what about the guy who cant cut a prop? What if, What if...this is why I say three classes...covers all the what ifs

These are things that are being discussed. If you read through this thread, you'll find that there's pretty much a consensus on prop replacement.

 

[Ron Olson]

Come on, both of you, let's keep the pissing contest out of this thread. We've been over this too many times on RCU so let's not drag it over to this site.

If anyone has a ***** to pitch, it's me. I ended up in the hospital for several hours after my anxiety disorder went through the roof and had to get medicated there and missed 8 hours of double-time pay because of it dealing with what went on over there and just about quit the Mod job there that day, Chuck knows that I went ballistic in the Moderator's Forum.

Please keep the dirty laundry out of here, it's ruining an otherwise good thread. Thank you.

 

[Don Ferrette]

So let's keep moving on this. James, we realize you make lots of hop up parts, that's great. However, in the interest of ENTRY LEVEL competitiveness the mods allowed need to be kept minimal so the person who shows up at the local pond with something like a box stock Vegas doesn't get his doors blown off the first time he goes in the water. That is the fastest way to drive off a newbie, seen it happen far too often & I've even seen new guys come out, just watch & after seeing what they'd have to run against they're never seen again. A better prop than plastic is fine, a turn fin so the boat corners & handles better, cool. Sanding and/or polishing but not altering the running surfaces, yup, good with that too. As for modding the motors that's where the line needs to gets drawn. As soon as you allow one person's modded motor you have just opened the door to the mega-buck car engine transplants & the whole cheap entry level purpose goes right out the window. You simply cannot be that bias, either you allow all modded motors or none at all, there is no in between ground. I have had a few conversations with those already familar with the Vegas that say it is quite capable of being a competitive sport 20, so there's your hop up incentive, keep improving your products so the guy who wants to move up from the RTR can do some mods & add ons & run in sport 20. We already run alot of classes at local races so there isn't really room for 3 more as was suggested (stock, modded, unlimited). There is nothing more fun than side by side competition, doesn't matter if it's at 40mph or 80mph, watching the stock gas class at this past weekend's race proved that. 4 rounds of side by side racing & they weren't newbies either, they were seasoned veteran racers having a blast.

 

[Kelly Miller]

I think the input here about what rtr racing should look like has been great. and I have learned a lot as to how we might suggest a new set of rules be published with IMPBA.

RTR class would really mean "anything that can be purchased ready to run" the origional rule stipulates engines sizes and boat sizes, I don't know if we could do that because lets say in florida there is a LHS that has been promoting Shockwave 55 boats and quite a few owners want to race, the local boat club takes notice (and how we find this out is another challenge) and offers a shockwave 55 RTR class.

seems rather simple

.15 proboat

.18 vegas

1/8th pro boat gas

and so on. whatever brand, size is popular in a given area.

The general concencus is that the boats should be left "Box Stock" which I think we will define as

No Modification to the engine or pipe. what is purchased is what it is.

I think anything that can be done to improve handeling of a boat really as a safty issue perhaps and should be allowed.

Turn fin modification or change. the stock vegas turns to the right great which would keep it

competative but a left turn might leave us a dead boat on the course right out of the gate.

will changing a rudder really improve speed or rather give a big swayed advantage?

This is one that I have a hard time deciding on.

Allow bottom sanding, polishing but no geometry changes.

50 % nitro max

I would rather trust everyone is doing the right thing here.

if we want to see rtr racing across the country we have to have a good set of basic simple rules so that everyone knows what to expect. the real question is how do we get in front of the guys buying RTR,s ( I don't mean to make it sound like they hide in the woods) and promote racing to them then make them aware of the rules. we might find that a majority have imediately "modified" the boat and "modified" would carry a majority. This is really where is gets hard to figure.

The race I am promoting is to see if we can get only RTR boats involved, which had the concept of

Stock

Modified

Unlimited

what ever it takes to get a group of people together and have some fun racing. Don hit it right on the head.

There is nothing more fun than side by side competition.

Kelly Miller

Sam Miller Racing

 

[piper_chuck]

There are a few things that I think need to be discussed more:

1. How do we keep the prices down? Should the rules include a price limit for a stock boat? If not, should we instead try to come up with some vague wording, which will then be subjected to the dreaded "interpretation"? Do we require a certain production quantity before a boat can be run? If there isn't a clear definition of what defines a low cost RTR, what's to prevent someone from going out and buying a $2000 RTR boat from someone and expecting to be able to run it? I realize that would be kind of a waste to spend so much, but I'd hate to see people get turned off by having to race against something like this.
   
2. Does the stock RTR class include everything (nitro, gas, and electric), or just small nitro? Should the rules allow for including all in one heat, but then splitting into different groups based on participation levels?
   
3. Moving on, what about publicity for this new class and boating in general? We're talking about this class as a way to bring in new boaters and provide a low cost, but fun class. While it's not something that would go in the rules, clubs that haven't already, should think about creating fliers and handing them out to hobby shops within a reasonable distance of the pond. It sure would be great if a few people with good marketing and graphics skills could come up with some easily customized sample fliers that clubs could use for publicity. Something else that would be a BIG help is for more clubs to create a web site showing at least the basics including who they are, where they run, what the run, when they run, and most important, who to contact. A link to the web site should be on their fliers and the district page of their national organizations.
   

 

[Rigged]

i have a headache. 98% stock RTR class would be great. Id probably go out and buy a Vegas just to have fun racing in a class i could be competitive in... cause i **** sure wouldnt be competitive in whatever class my Cat fits in with its Kaboom 67. :lol:

 

[Kelly Miller]

Glad you brought those up Chuck because they do need clarity

RTR class the way I see it is actually a multilevel class

RTR vegas

RTR 1\12 bud\lumar

RTR tc 31

and so on

whatever is the popular RTR in a given area, and perhaps more than one RTR heat all with similar boats

the thing that keeps being said over and over is we want to try and include everyone, sometimes that is very difficult to do, but every effort should be made to figure out how to get a person racing.

cost is regulated by the fact that all vegas, boats 1\12 buds ect. cost the same. If there is a RTR boat out there that cost 2000.00 and it won't fall into one of the other classes then it becomes RTR 2000.00 class.

I thought about something I had said earlier about getting too many classes (which is still a concern) but all the classes we have now do not always get enough entries. this don't neccisarily mean we eliminate classes. I still view this as a growth opportunity for both new racers and veterans. I have raced every class of mono and several hydro classes and I have had a lot of fun racing the vegas.

Yes I think it could encompass everything....electric....nitro.....gas.

Chuck your last question is probaly the MOST important factor of all. I cannot stress this enough

and you are correct......It has nothing to do with rules

how do we market this class.........and quite frankly the entire rc boat racing experience and there is a real need for people who have expertise in marketing to step up with some productive planning.

In my opinion this is something that needs to be promoted at several different levels

Manufacturer

perhaps a list of clubs across the US

build boats and advertise them as "IMPBA RTR legal or IMPBA B Mono legal" NAMBA APBA

Hobby shop

information and promtion of local clubs and places people gather to race

(we have seen the impact of someone being at our practice pond the same time every week)

information about the rules that may be associated with arcing

ask for contact information and would they be interested in being contacted about

club info

boat tuning questions

racing info

local clubs

as mentioned before being at the practice pond on a regular schedule

I had even mentioned that we should create a banner that we put up while there (we a lucky enough to

be in a county park, lots of people watching) talking about or rather asking the question "Are you interested in RC BOATS"

"Do you have a RC Boat that we can help you with"

advertise race dates on the banner.

Marketing is a multi level effort. for manufacturers and LHS it is all about the Chaching and I don't mean that in a bad way it is the reality of it. on the club level the profit is in the developing friendships and good ol American Competition, Competition that drives us to be better, Competition that drives us to learn new things, Competition that builds friendships some that may take on the appearance as rivals but truth be known they wouldn't have it any other way.

Thanks for asking the questions Chuck

I hope my answers are some solutions we can build with.

Kelly Miller

Sam Miller Racing

 

[piper_chuck]

Yup, something is being built. I'm busy writing things down, and I'm working toward deadlines.

My first cut at differentiating the boats is to remove the engine size restriction and instead write something like "Hulls may be separated by hull, propulsion type and sizes, or potential speed, if sufficient boats are entered". I think we'd all agree that for a variety of reasons, specific boats shouldn't be written into the rules, but could rather be handled at the local level based on participation levels.

Here are some examples of "RTR" boats that are outside the classes that we're talking about:

http://www.barnstormerboats.com/index.php?...p;products_id=2

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti00...MPJ2**&P=ML

Aeromarine offers several in the $1300-2000 range.

Based on reports, the V24 isn't worth worrying about, speed wise it'll fit right in, but there are plenty of others that just don't belong to a low cost RTR class. Many of these higher priced RTR boats clearly fall into an existing class, but it's important to make sure what can and can't run as a low-cost RTR is clearly spelled out to ensure there are no misunderstandings on race day.

 

[piper_chuck]

i have a headache. 98% stock RTR class would be great. Id probably go out and buy a Vegas just to have fun racing in a class i could be competitive in... cause i **** sure wouldnt be competitive in whatever class my Cat fits in with its Kaboom 67. :lol:

Don't be so down on the cat. Get it running right and it'll give fits to gas cats, do well in offshore, etc! I've got one that had an OPS .67. Just when I got it running well, the engine imploded. I switched to an OS .81 and have been working on getting it dialed in. At the last club race, it was finally starting to run the way I want, and I'm quite pleased!!!

 

[Ron Olson]

I'd hate to see it come to this but maybe a claimer rule would keep people from going too far with mods and cheating. The intent would be so that people aren't dumping $400.00 engines into $300.00 boats.

We'd of course have to separate the boats into their respective hulls and engine sizes.

 

[Rigged]

i have a headache. 98% stock RTR class would be great. Id probably go out and buy a Vegas just to have fun racing in a class i could be competitive in... cause i **** sure wouldnt be competitive in whatever class my Cat fits in with its Kaboom 67. :lol:

Don't be so down on the cat. Get it running right and it'll give fits to gas cats, do well in offshore, etc! I've got one that had an OPS .67. Just when I got it running well, the engine imploded. I switched to an OS .81 and have been working on getting it dialed in. At the last club race, it was finally starting to run the way I want, and I'm quite pleased!!!

im not too interested in trying to race this boat. When (if) i decide to start racing, ill pick up another boat (probably a sprint cat or deep v) to stuff my OPS 65 in and see what happens.

 

[piper_chuck]

I'd hate to see it come to this but maybe a claimer rule would keep people from going too far with mods and cheating. The intent would be so that people aren't dumping $400.00 engines into $300.00 boats.

We'd of course have to separate the boats into their respective hulls and engine sizes.

I actually like claimer rules, for exactly the reason you stated. People will think twice about pouring a bunch of time and/or money into internal mods to an engine if they know they might lose them. As long as it's clearly stated up front, and the person is given a fair price for the claimed engine, replacement cost plus a little extra for their time and effort to break in a new one, it can work.

 

[Kelly Miller]

Chuck, is it possible to try and create a list at the begining of the season grouping together similar boats in relation to engine size and performance and post those as class groups. My original thought was to seperate completely by manufacturer and model but certainly there is some overlap possible.

Sounds Like we need a RTR Class Director

 

[Rigged]

I'd hate to see it come to this but maybe a claimer rule would keep people from going too far with mods and cheating. The intent would be so that people aren't dumping $400.00 engines into $300.00 boats.

We'd of course have to separate the boats into their respective hulls and engine sizes.

I actually like claimer rules, for exactly the reason you stated. People will think twice about pouring a bunch of time and/or money into internal mods to an engine if they know they might lose them. As long as it's clearly stated up front, and the person is given a fair price for the claimed engine, replacement cost plus a little extra for their time and effort to break in a new one, it can work.

this is what made a class in an organization (NMCA/PRO) we use to race in popular. They had a class called "Cheap Street" which was designed for cars with a $5000 engine/trans combo. They had a set price for each..

$3500 for the entire engine (carb to oil pan) and $1500 for the Tranny & Converter. This rule kept people from coming in with $10,000 motors and $5000 trannys to dominate a class that had less then a $2000 payout for the winner. If you did not take the offer from the racer that had the opportunity to make the purchase, you were stripped of all your points and not allowd to race.

 

[Kelly Miller]

all of the manufacturers would have to send us a boat so we could evaluate them..............OK i'll do it. anybody wanna help.

but seriously the whole point is head to head competition.

the theme of this thread...........keep it simple.

Kelly Miller

 

[piper_chuck]

A list is worth considering, as a guideline. It would help in cases where a club has enough boats to start splitting them out by subclass. However, administering the list could become a political time bomb. If a boat gets put in the wrong group, significantly faster or slower than others in the group, the makers of the list would end up facing the wrath of both owners and makers of the boats. It would also require that a group get hold of each boat and do enough running to reach a conclusion about its capabilities. Additionally, whoever does this needs to be truely independent.

Hmmm, I have no ties to any companies, so I must be independent. Kelly, you're independent too, right?

Dear RTR makers, please ship one copy of each boat you wish to have listed in our 2007 RTR roster to me or Kelly by Nov 1 so we can begin testing and classifying. When each of us is done with a boat, we'll send it to the other for verification. Please provide a shipping account number so Kelly and I don't have to foot the bill for testing your boat. Since shipping fuel is cost prohibitive, we will offer to buy our own fuel for the tests, although if you wanted to throw in gift certificates, one for each of us, to defray the fuel cost, we wouldn't object. When the two of us are done, we'll work out the list and post it on the IMPBA's new RTR page. The Nov 1 deadline was chosen so we can finish the classification by Dec 20, in time for the typical male Christmas shopping trip. Oh, and we hope that you understand that once we're finished with testing the boats, we will keep them to be included in one of our club's raffles or other R/C boating promotion. Regards, Chuck

Sorry for the above two paragraphs, I thought a bit of humor was in order...

 

[anthony_marquart]

I agree with all most everythinh you guys say. I still think we should have a modified RTR class though. People like to tinker with their engines, pipes and stuff. I really do. I'm hoping to get a Vegas hull without the engine. I'll have to toss in what I have, though be it a smaller displacement. Yeah, this would put me in the modified class but I would still be able to race. What happens when your stock engine takes dump on you and all you can get is one that fits? (in time or whatever)

I certainly don't want to see $400 engines in a $300 boat but either. But how many people are going to do that? it doesn't really make sense..

Whatever happens I like it. I'll be able to race competitively and not mortgage my house...