When CD's should act/Sport Tunnel

[Ted buckley]

This is a continuation of the topic: "Thunder Tiger Mod's" opened up from my Son. Names will be left off to keep the peace.

When Should C.D.'s(Contest Directors) "ACT". Don't have my IMPBA book with me at the moment, but doesn't Section: H Par. 3-4 State something about the C.D. should verify a Boat(in this case Sport Tunnel)is a valid/Legal boat (to run in that heat for the day) Prior to the Race starting? I mean, This seems to be an "Age Old" argument.. They know my Son is coming to race, they also know that his Tunnel hasn't changed from the last time it raced. Why does the race have to end(After He(My son)has won both Stock & Mod)for people to start complaining about some sort of Modification to his Carb. - Then threaten him with an Email from the C.D. the next day to Disqualify (Him), not his boat from all points.. Things got very heated at the pond(After the Race) about this same Stupid arguement. Let's just play "Devil's advocate" here, and say (My Son) does have a Modified carb. on his "Thunder Tiger". The Carb has no markings on it, but if (They) know the Tunnel is coming - then wouldn't it be prudent to call him on it (At the beggining of the day) and not after he's won "Both" Classes? Any of you IMPBA Professionals with some clarity on this issue? <_<

 

[RodneyPierce]

ive gotta say Ted has a pretty **** good point here.... On the other hand, If its the previous thread im thinking of, I told him how to get around the carb issue, and it would cost you guys nothing but a remote manual needle valve (IE remote mixture device per IMCA wording). Throw the stock TT carb back on there, twist the needle all the way out and use the remote needle valve. Its very very easy to get around this, and you would think that since you knew there was issues with it, you would have just changed to to a legal method. Regardless, its kind of like you were trying to see just "how far" you could take it before someone complained, especially AFTER the last couple times.

ON THE OTHER HAND, you do have a very valid point above. Im not going to argue that ONE bit.

AND, I do excuse myself, and give my apologies if this ISNT the same person as the last thread..

 

[Ted buckley]

Thanks Rod, The thread was my Son's "Thunder Tiger Mod's" and I don't think that putting on a Remote needle will satisfy the masses - because they would come back and say that - that was moded.. I think the fact that my Son won both races with his Sport Tunnel and at the end of the Day "They Complained again". The Carb. has NO markings on it. I can't for sure - say one way or the other if it is actually modified - but, I can say this, Should this be addressed before the race starts? Why Threaten to take his points away - the day after. Let's say he puts on a Thunder-tiger carb(With Markings) and does the needle thing - with the remote? Are they gonna come back later with a ruling?? I need some sort of clarifacation here.

 

[RodneyPierce]

Ted, no, they cant. give me one minute here to dig up the rules quick. Ill repost it in just a second.

 

[RodneyPierce]

4. The following exceptions will be allowed in the Sport Outboard Tunnel

specifications.

a. Adhesives (loctite), set screws and jam nuts.

b. Any carb linkage arms.

c. Any motor mount.

d. Any glow plug, fuel brand and mixture.

e. Any type steering arm.

f. Any flywheel nut.

g. The lower unit below the cavitation plate may be trimmed, sharpened

or polished. No material shall be added to the lower unit.

h. Adjustable mixture controls will be allowed, however the original

needle valve must remain in its original position.

 

[RodneyPierce]

there you go my friend. Its section H, page 11 of the IMCA rule book.

 

[topfuel443]

There are no professionals in IMPBA, but I will give my opinion.

First and foremost, its the RACERS responsibility (your son) to know and adhere to the rule book. If he is knowingly breaking a rule before running the class, why is the CD the bad guy for "calling him on it"?

Like on the other post, here is the ENTIRE sport outboard rules section from the rulebook.

Sport Outboard Tunnel Rules 

Engine and Hull Specifications

 

1. There shall be one engine class, Class B.

2. The Sport outboard class shall use tunnel boats only.

3. The Sport outboard tunnel class shall not lock down the engine or use any

auxiliary steering system.

4. Original carb bore and exhaust configuration will be retained as

manufactured. No modification to the carb bore or exhaust outlets will be

allowed.

5. No high performance exhaust systems (tuned pipes) will be allowed, even if

they are offered by the manufacturer of the engine. Clarification: the two

outlet exhaust / muffler chambers offered by K&B and O.S. are not

considered tuned pipes and will be allowed in the Sport outboard tunnel class.

 

 

Engine Specifications

 

1. Engines must be standard factory production with a minimum of 100 units

available for sale to the general public. To be eligible for the International

Regatta the engines must have been offered for sale to the general public not

less than ninety (90) days prior to that year's International Regatta.

2. The powerhead and lower unit must be of the same manufacturer and model.

3. The engine external parts shall remain as originally manufactured within

series except as shown in Part 4. Clarification: No water-cooled engine parts

shall be used with air-cooled engine parts. Common engine parts that are used

on both engines models may be interchanged. Slide valve exhaust adapters

may not be used with carburetor equipped engines.

4. The following exceptions will be allowed in the Sport Outboard Tunnel

specifications.

a. Adhesives (loctite), set screws and jam nuts.

b. Any carb linkage arms.

c. Any motor mount.

d. Any glow plug, fuel brand and mixture.

e. Any type steering arm.

f. Any flywheel nut.

g. The lower unit below the cavitation plate may be trimmed, sharpened

or polished. No material shall be added to the lower unit.

h. Adjustable mixture controls will be allowed, however the original

needle valve must remain in its original position.

 

 

Sport tunnel engine inspection procedures

 

The maximum carb bore and exhaust outlet bore size shall not exceed 0.320 inches. These

may be checked with a 'GO, NO-GO' gage or dial calipers. Note: It will be the contestant’s

responsibility to check and verify carb bore and exhaust outlet bores prior to the contest. Any

infraction concerning the carb or exhaust bore sizes will result in immediate disqualification

from the contest

It doesnt say when the cd or other official is supposed to check the boats. We typically check the top 3 boats with a go/no-go gauge at the end of each heat. I know this has been done at the internats, and the World Tunnel Champs. We have also teched the boats before the race, but its not written anywhere that I know of. The only other section of the rule book that may apply is the 'protest' (section K). But it doesnt sound like someone made a formal protest against you, just that they brought it to the CD's attention.

Protests 

The contestant, by entering a contest or Record Trial, automatically grants the right of inspection

by Protest Procedure. Should a contestant refuse inspection, the Protest will be judged valid and

penalties will be issued as outlined in “Protest Fees and Illegal Equipment Fines”, this section.

 

If an engine or hull is protested during or after a contest, it will be handled as follows:

 

1. During a contest

a. The equipment will be allowed to run only until the Protest can be evaluated.

b. The equipment will be immediately measured and reviewed by a Committee made up of

the Contest Director, IMPBA District Director (if available), and two disinterested

IMPBA members.

c. All reviewing and measuring will be done in conjunction with the "IMPBA Engine

Rules" as written. These rules are the law and the only grounds for Protest.

d. Protestor and owner or proxy must be notified, and can be present during the review.

e. If the Protest is upheld, and the equipment judged illegal, a written report outlining

the infraction ruling must be forwarded to the District Director and President

within two days of the Protest. Contest Director plus two Committee members

must sign the report.

 

If for some reason the Committee cannot make a ruling, a written report, complete with

sketches, if necessary, will be forwarded to the IMPBA President who will distribute

copies to the Technical Committee for final judgment.

 

March 2006 K - 9 Technical Standards

 

2. Protests after a Contest or Record Run

 

If for some reason information becomes available after a contest or Record Trial that

would have grounds for a Protest:

 

a. The person or persons processing this information are duty bound to forward in

writing all the details to their District Director and the President no later than 30

days after publication of that record in the quarterly report.

b. The letter must contain the signature and IMPBA number of the writer.

c. Copies will be forwarded to the Technical Committee and the owner concerned.

d. The District Director will conduct an investigation and forward all findings to the

Technical Committee.

e. The ruling by the Technical Committee will be final.

 

3. Should the contestant be declared guilty of the same engine or hull infraction twice in one

calendar year, he will be banned from all IMPBA events for the succeeding twelve

months.

 

4. Protest Fees and Illegal Equipment Fines

a. The Protestor shall pay a $5.00 Protest Fee.

b. If the Protest is denied, the fee will be retained by the host club to defray expenses.

c. If the Protest is upheld, and the equipment declared illegal, the Protestor will

receive his Protest fee back.

d. Fines for running illegal engines and hulls:

 

1. Offenses are cumulative in a calendar year and are chargeable to the owner.

1st offense $25.00

2nd offense $50.00 and suspension from competition for 1 year

3rd offense expulsion from organization

 

2. IMPBA General Office will record offenses and send a registered letter

to the owner requesting payment of fine.

 

3. Fine must be paid within 20 days of notification.

 

3. Non-payment will result in cancellation of all IMPBA privileges

for the succeeding twelve (12) months.

 

[Ted buckley]

Thanks again Rod, I know I was close - but don't have the Rules embedded in my brain - quite yet. :lol: So, with that being said: "Adjustable Mixture Controls" Then what would be the difference if it was (Lets say) an OS unmarked carb. - which is being insinuated? The carb is very similar to the OS - but I would think you would get better performance from an "Adjustable" as opposed to straight carb.. I know I do for my Hydro's.

 

[topfuel443]

Ted, you arent giving a good explanation of exactly what happened to be honest. I know from the other thread that you guys were running an OS carb on the TT, is this what you guys got called on or is it something else? Thats a no brainer, and is simply not legal. If you run a stock TT carb on it, and then run a remote needle (with the stock needle in place), you are perfectly legal.

Are you saying the stock TT carb had been modded? What do you mean by "markings"?

I know you dont want it to get into a pissing match, and I will keep it from doing that, but you got to tell us the whole story.

 

[Ted buckley]

There are no professionals in IMPBA, but I will give my opinion.

First and foremost, its the RACERS responsibility (your son) to know and adhere to the rule book. If he is knowingly breaking a rule before running the class, why is the CD the bad guy for "calling him on it"?

Like on the other post, here is the ENTIRE sport outboard rules section from the rulebook.

Sport Outboard Tunnel Rules 

Engine and Hull Specifications

 

1. There shall be one engine class, Class B.

2. The Sport outboard class shall use tunnel boats only.

3. The Sport outboard tunnel class shall not lock down the engine or use any

auxiliary steering system.

4. Original carb bore and exhaust configuration will be retained as

manufactured. No modification to the carb bore or exhaust outlets will be

allowed.

5. No high performance exhaust systems (tuned pipes) will be allowed, even if

they are offered by the manufacturer of the engine. Clarification: the two

outlet exhaust / muffler chambers offered by K&B and O.S. are not

considered tuned pipes and will be allowed in the Sport outboard tunnel class.

 

 

Engine Specifications

 

1. Engines must be standard factory production with a minimum of 100 units

available for sale to the general public. To be eligible for the International

Regatta the engines must have been offered for sale to the general public not

less than ninety (90) days prior to that year's International Regatta.

2. The powerhead and lower unit must be of the same manufacturer and model.

3. The engine external parts shall remain as originally manufactured within

series except as shown in Part 4. Clarification: No water-cooled engine parts

shall be used with air-cooled engine parts. Common engine parts that are used

on both engines models may be interchanged. Slide valve exhaust adapters

may not be used with carburetor equipped engines.

4. The following exceptions will be allowed in the Sport Outboard Tunnel

specifications.

a. Adhesives (loctite), set screws and jam nuts.

b. Any carb linkage arms.

c. Any motor mount.

d. Any glow plug, fuel brand and mixture.

e. Any type steering arm.

f. Any flywheel nut.

g. The lower unit below the cavitation plate may be trimmed, sharpened

or polished. No material shall be added to the lower unit.

h. Adjustable mixture controls will be allowed, however the original

needle valve must remain in its original position.

 

 

Sport tunnel engine inspection procedures

 

The maximum carb bore and exhaust outlet bore size shall not exceed 0.320 inches. These

may be checked with a 'GO, NO-GO' gage or dial calipers. Note: It will be the contestant’s

responsibility to check and verify carb bore and exhaust outlet bores prior to the contest. Any

infraction concerning the carb or exhaust bore sizes will result in immediate disqualification

from the contest

It doesnt say when the cd or other official is supposed to check the boats. We typically check the top 3 boats with a go/no-go gauge at the end of each heat. I know this has been done at the internats, and the World Tunnel Champs. We have also teched the boats before the race, but its not written anywhere that I know of. The only other section of the rule book that may apply is the 'protest' (section K). But it doesnt sound like someone made a formal protest against you, just that they brought it to the CD's attention.

Protests 

The contestant, by entering a contest or Record Trial, automatically grants the right of inspection

by Protest Procedure. Should a contestant refuse inspection, the Protest will be judged valid and

penalties will be issued as outlined in “Protest Fees and Illegal Equipment Fines”, this section.

 

If an engine or hull is protested during or after a contest, it will be handled as follows:

 

1. During a contest

a. The equipment will be allowed to run only until the Protest can be evaluated.

b. The equipment will be immediately measured and reviewed by a Committee made up of

the Contest Director, IMPBA District Director (if available), and two disinterested

IMPBA members.

c. All reviewing and measuring will be done in conjunction with the "IMPBA Engine

Rules" as written. These rules are the law and the only grounds for Protest.

d. Protestor and owner or proxy must be notified, and can be present during the review.

e. If the Protest is upheld, and the equipment judged illegal, a written report outlining

the infraction ruling must be forwarded to the District Director and President

within two days of the Protest. Contest Director plus two Committee members

must sign the report.

 

If for some reason the Committee cannot make a ruling, a written report, complete with

sketches, if necessary, will be forwarded to the IMPBA President who will distribute

copies to the Technical Committee for final judgment.

 

March 2006 K - 9 Technical Standards

 

2. Protests after a Contest or Record Run

 

If for some reason information becomes available after a contest or Record Trial that

would have grounds for a Protest:

 

a. The person or persons processing this information are duty bound to forward in

writing all the details to their District Director and the President no later than 30

days after publication of that record in the quarterly report.

b. The letter must contain the signature and IMPBA number of the writer.

c. Copies will be forwarded to the Technical Committee and the owner concerned.

d. The District Director will conduct an investigation and forward all findings to the

Technical Committee.

e. The ruling by the Technical Committee will be final.

 

3. Should the contestant be declared guilty of the same engine or hull infraction twice in one

calendar year, he will be banned from all IMPBA events for the succeeding twelve

months.

 

4. Protest Fees and Illegal Equipment Fines

a. The Protestor shall pay a $5.00 Protest Fee.

b. If the Protest is denied, the fee will be retained by the host club to defray expenses.

c. If the Protest is upheld, and the equipment declared illegal, the Protestor will

receive his Protest fee back.

d. Fines for running illegal engines and hulls:

 

1. Offenses are cumulative in a calendar year and are chargeable to the owner.

1st offense $25.00

2nd offense $50.00 and suspension from competition for 1 year

3rd offense expulsion from organization

 

2. IMPBA General Office will record offenses and send a registered letter

to the owner requesting payment of fine.

 

3. Fine must be paid within 20 days of notification.

 

3. Non-payment will result in cancellation of all IMPBA privileges

for the succeeding twelve (12) months.

O.k., so I've read your rules, and I don't see any violation that my Son has broken - for the fact that the Carb. has NO Markings and is very similar to an OS. So, let just say he violated the rules(Unknowinly) about the carb. Does it mean he should be dis-qualified then, in the MOD Class? Or is it that they are just upset that he won that class for the day? You would think they wanted to keep his boat in the Sport class - but it just seem's that they JUST don't want to make up their minds...

 

[topfuel443]

and I don't see any violation that my Son has broken - for the fact that the Carb. has NO Markings and is very similar to an OS.

This is where you arent making any sense to me. What are set-up are you running? What did they say was illegal? What about it was illegal?

If the carb is not a TT carb, or if the external portions of the carb have been modified, then its not legal. Plain and simple.

 

[Ted buckley]

Ted, you arent giving a good explanation of exactly what happened to be honest. I know from the other thread that you guys were running an OS carb on the TT, is this what you guys got called on or is it something else? Thats a no brainer, and is simply not legal. If you run a stock TT carb on it, and then run a remote needle (with the stock needle in place), you are perfectly legal.

Are you saying the stock TT carb had been modded? What do you mean by "markings"?

I know you dont want it to get into a pissing match, and I will keep it from doing that, but you got to tell us the whole story.

Jim, No I don't want to get into any argument with anybody. My time is running short here at work, but the story(Short) goes like this.. I think my Son has an OS Carb. but the markings are not there. Ever-time he races, he gets into an argument with the guys in that heat(After he Wins) about Modification to his Carb. (1) Why isn't this being addressed before the race starts. (2) why try to dis-qualify him after the race is over. (3). Shouldn't the CD make my Son Declare his Hull/Boat one way or the other?

 

[Bill Britton]

Ted, you arent giving a good explanation of exactly what happened to be honest. I know from the other thread that you guys were running an OS carb on the TT, is this what you guys got called on or is it something else? Thats a no brainer, and is simply not legal. If you run a stock TT carb on it, and then run a remote needle (with the stock needle in place), you are perfectly legal.

Are you saying the stock TT carb had been modded? What do you mean by "markings"?

I know you dont want it to get into a pissing match, and I will keep it from doing that, but you got to tell us the whole story.

Jim, No I don't want to get into any argument with anybody. My time is running short here at work, but the story(Short) goes like this.. I think my Son has an OS Carb. but the markings are not there. Ever-time he races, he gets into an argument with the guys in that heat(After he Wins) about Modification to his Carb. (1) Why isn't this being addressed before the race starts. (2) why try to dis-qualify him after the race is over. (3). Shouldn't the CD make my Son Declare his Hull/Boat one way or the other?

Dude

The onus is on YOU to be legal. If you are running in the stock class and have been questioned in the past about the carb then you already know why your been called out. James said it as plain as anyone can;

1, If it is not a TT carb your wrong.

2, If it is a modified TT carb your wrong.

Before, during, or after the race is irrelevant. Wrong is wrong all the time.

Done.

 

[topfuel443]

I think my Son has an OS Carb.

Its illegal. If he is racing with an OS carb, regardless of 'markings' he should have been disqualified. He has to run a TT carb. End of story.

(1) Why isn't this being addressed before the race starts.

Again, its your sons responsibility as a contestant to know and adhere to the rules. Most local or smaller club races hold races with the gentlemen's understanding that all boats are legal as per the IMPBA rule book. Of course this is not always the case, and is usually - at some point or another - brought to someones attention.

(2) why try to dis-qualify him after the race is over.

Because he was illegal. Very simple. Maybe it should have been caught/addressed earlier but for whatever reason it wasnt. But it doesnt change the fact that the boat was illegal.

(3). Shouldn't the CD make my Son Declare his Hull/Boat one way or the other?

You mean as far as MOD or SPORT? Your son should know what class to run the boat in, based on the rules. If he is unsure, by all means get the CD or tech director of the race to ok for it either class before the race starts.

 

[Blackout]

Ted, you arent giving a good explanation of exactly what happened to be honest. I know from the other thread that you guys were running an OS carb on the TT, is this what you guys got called on or is it something else? Thats a no brainer, and is simply not legal. If you run a stock TT carb on it, and then run a remote needle (with the stock needle in place), you are perfectly legal.

Are you saying the stock TT carb had been modded? What do you mean by "markings"?

I know you dont want it to get into a pissing match, and I will keep it from doing that, but you got to tell us the whole story.

Jim, No I don't want to get into any argument with anybody. My time is running short here at work, but the story(Short) goes like this.. I think my Son has an OS Carb. but the markings are not there. Ever-time he races, he gets into an argument with the guys in that heat(After he Wins) about Modification to his Carb. (1) Why isn't this being addressed before the race starts. (2) why try to dis-qualify him after the race is over. (3). Shouldn't the CD make my Son Declare his Hull/Boat one way or the other?

I think your question has already been answered. It is the responsibility of the driver to know that his boat is legal and know the rules. When he wins, of course the boat will be looked at closely. This is also the way it is done in SCCA Solo racing. After the race everyone goes to impound with hoods open. At impound a protest can be made.

In the sport class, the stock carb needs to be used. If not, it is illegal.

 

[RodneyPierce]

Your sons boat is perfectly legal for the MOD class with the OS carb. But, for the sport class, basically the exhaust and carb have to be STOCK TO THAT engine. SO he would have to run the THUNDER TIGER CARB on his THUNDER TIGER to be legal to race in SPORT class. in MOD class, he can run whatever carb he wants to run.

 

[Ted buckley]

I think my Son has an OS Carb.

Its illegal. If he is racing with an OS carb, regardless of 'markings' he should have been disqualified. He has to run a TT carb. End of story.

(1) Why isn't this being addressed before the race starts.

Again, its your sons responsibility as a contestant to know and adhere to the rules. Most local or smaller club races hold races with the gentlemen's understanding that all boats are legal as per the IMPBA rule book. Of course this is not always the case, and is usually - at some point or another - brought to someones attention.

(2) why try to dis-qualify him after the race is over.

Because he was illegal. Very simple. Maybe it should have been caught/addressed earlier but for whatever reason it wasnt. But it doesnt change the fact that the boat was illegal.

(3). Shouldn't the CD make my Son Declare his Hull/Boat one way or the other?

You mean as far as MOD or SPORT? Your son should know what class to run the boat in, based on the rules. If he is unsure, by all means get the CD or tech director of the race to ok for it either class before the race starts.

 

[HTV Boats]

Hey Ted been a while,

A pre race inspection is a courtesy unless motors are tagged or marked. There cannot be an offense until after a race is run. Your not illegal until you commit the act. Anyone could make changes between heats or after a pre race inspection. CD's make the assumption everyone is complying until they recognize an infraction which is what post race impounding and inspections are for. Cd's have enough to do without babysitting everyone heat by heat. If someone has let you run an illegal part one day do not assume it won't get someones attention especially if you win. There is no precedent to disqualify anyone in a full mod class post event other than measuring bore and stroke. Sounds like there are some sour grapes between a few individuals. Everyone involved needs to take a deap breath and meet face to face and decide how bad they wan't to run regulated classes. IMPBA legal is pretty easy.

Mic

 

[Ted buckley]

O.k., I just got home from work and wanted to defend myself & my Son. First off, I just wanted Clarification on the issue. Let's assume that He does have an Illegal Carb. by (All your Definition). He should be running in the Mod. Class (I agree). However; why be dis-qualified for the Mod. Class -then? Does this boat NOT qualify for this class - then? I want you to read something for me about James' rules:

Sport Outboard Tunnel Rules

Engine and Hull Specifications

1. There shall be one engine class, Class B.

2. The Sport outboard class shall use tunnel boats only.

3. The Sport outboard tunnel class shall not lock down the engine or use any

auxiliary steering system.

4. Original carb bore and exhaust configuration will be retained as

manufactured. No modification to the carb bore or exhaust outlets will be

allowed.

5. No high performance exhaust systems (tuned pipes) will be allowed, even if

they are offered by the manufacturer of the engine. Clarification: the two

outlet exhaust / muffler chambers offered by K&B and O.S. are not

considered tuned pipes and will be allowed in the Sport outboard tunnel class.

Please pay close attention to #4. & #5. The rule doesn't say anything about putting a different CARB on the Engine - but does say that the BORE cannot be modified. Meaning that the little round hole in the throat(Can't be en-larged) to put a bigger dia. recieving bore in the throat... So, what would this mean if he did put an OS in the throat - and it fit - guys.. Why would #5. allow an OS or K&B exhaust chamber- but not an OS Carb that fit?? I don't think my Son Knowingly(Or still think he has) Violated any rule on this fact. My opinion is that - putting a remote on the carb - only aides the carb - and is illegal in this class. Otherwise, why do it. The carb that's on the Engine is perfectly mated with the bore and hasn't been modified.

 

[Grimracer]

Simple..

He should not have been disqualified from the mod class unless.. The HULL did not meet the rule of an OB tunnel hull and or the motor was over displacement.

Having said this.. the CD has the final call. PERIOD. If he, the CD does not understand the rules I suspect somebody might want to clue him in.

Grim