What is wrong with racing ?

[dr gary turner]

Things have changed!!!!!! Some are good some are bad. I have been racing in IMBBA since about 1979 or 1980. BACK THEN I was running tunnel hulls and the first race we drove from B'Ham all the way to DALLAS Tx. to race!!!!!! Once we saw a hydro we immediately ordered a C/S hydro, and I have continued to run to the present time. Indeed in the past we ran usually one class. Many of the races were "run what you brung." We would travel to Indy, Memphis, Atlanta and New Orleans. There would be about 50-75 boaters per race.

Why have many us stayed in the hobby, IT IS THE COMPETITION!!!!!!!! Some of the best heats that I have had was a 3 boat heat with everyone running close together at 80mph. If one has a vary compeptive boat large heats make for slow races and spending most ot the time dogging dead wood and not being able to actually race!!!!!!! My den is full of trophies and at most races I don't worry about winning, I am interested in a close fast race with two or three vary fast and competative boats. Racing the likes of Stu Bar, Joe Warren, Ron Zaker, Steve Ball, Ollie, Jerry Crowther, the Woods, Ralph Amorila, Eric Canto, Erni Le Fluer and many others!!! A good race with two of these folks will make you SHAKE after a close fast heat. I will drive a long distance to have good competition and skip a race with poor competition. That is why Atlanta, Huntsville, Nats and others have a great turn out. Last year the Atlanta race was full in just a few days after the flyer went out. Its is the COMPETITION!!!!!!

Yes things have changed, I now race 5-6 classes, instead of traveling with 3 or 4 people in a station wagon, we pull an air conditioned trailer with an Ohnan generator, a full shop and lighting to work on boats in the evening at a race. Yes were are spending more money on boats and I make more than I did in 1979. The competiton is the same whether one is racing FROGS or BOATS!

The cost has kept some individuals out of the sport. It did so also in 1979 and certainly the travel distances has not changed too much. In district 5 we have several races now that are closer. The competion has become more fierce and it is hard to compete becaue we do have excellent compeptitors that work hard at having top boats and this can discourage some who want to basically sport run and then try to compete in 40 hydro all of the way to twins. This why the sport 40 and sport 20 classes have grown and I believe it is also why the gas classes grew. Gas is beginning to experience now severe competition which may result in a decrease number of participants. In fact some gas people are coming back to nitro do the cost at being at the top in gas.

The issue is not the POINT system, it is fine. It is not the cost. It is not the distance of races. It is COMPETITION. There are now several classes in IMPBA and one can find a class that fits his or her budget and compete. It is the competition that keeps our interest in R/C boating and it is one of the most challenging things I do. If the competition is taken away or impeded as occurred at the 2006 Nats then there will be a dramatic loss of participants. Keep the competion going and the hobby will survive and flourish. Dr. Gary Turner[doc] 6322.

 

[Tim Kish]

Things have changed!!!!!! Some are good some are bad. I have been racing in IMBBA since about 1979 or 1980. BACK THEN I was running tunnel hulls and the first race we drove from B'Ham all the way to DALLAS Tx. to race!!!!!! Once we saw a hydro we immediately ordered a C/S hydro, and I have continued to run to the present time. Indeed in the past we ran usually one class. Many of the races were "run what you brung." We would travel to Indy, Memphis, Atlanta and New Orleans. There would be about 50-75 boaters per race.

Why have many us stayed in the hobby, IT IS THE COMPETITION!!!!!!!! Some of the best heats that I have had was a 3 boat heat with everyone running close together at 80mph. If one has a vary compeptive boat large heats make for slow races and spending most ot the time dogging dead wood and not being able to actually race!!!!!!! My den is full of trophies and at most races I don't worry about winning, I am interested in a close fast race with two or three vary fast and competative boats. Racing the likes of Stu Bar, Joe Warren, Ron Zaker, Steve Ball, Ollie, Jerry Crowther, the Woods, Ralph Amorila, Eric Canto, Erni Le Fluer and many others!!! A good race with two of these folks will make you SHAKE after a close fast heat. I will drive a long distance to have good competition and skip a race with poor competition. That is why Atlanta, Huntsville, Nats and others have a great turn out. Last year the Atlanta race was full in just a few days after the flyer went out. Its is the COMPETITION!!!!!!

Yes things have changed, I now race 5-6 classes, instead of traveling with 3 or 4 people in a station wagon, we pull an air conditioned trailer with an Ohnan generator, a full shop and lighting to work on boats in the evening at a race. Yes were are spending more money on boats and I make more than I did in 1979. The competiton is the same whether one is racing FROGS or BOATS!

The cost has kept some individuals out of the sport. It did so also in 1979 and certainly the travel distances has not changed too much. In district 5 we have several races now that are closer. The competion has become more fierce and it is hard to compete becaue we do have excellent compeptitors that work hard at having top boats and this can discourage some who want to basically sport run and then try to compete in 40 hydro all of the way to twins. This why the sport 40 and sport 20 classes have grown and I believe it is also why the gas classes grew. Gas is beginning to experience now severe competition which may result in a decrease number of participants. In fact some gas people are coming back to nitro do the cost at being at the top in gas.

The issue is not the POINT system, it is fine. It is not the cost. It is not the distance of races. It is COMPETITION. There are now several classes in IMPBA and one can find a class that fits his or her budget and compete. It is the competition that keeps our interest in R/C boating and it is one of the most challenging things I do. If the competition is taken away or impeded as occurred at the 2006 Nats then there will be a dramatic loss of participants. Keep the competion going and the hobby will survive and flourish. Dr. Gary Turner[doc] 6322.

This is exactly what I have been saying it is about the competion (or lack of ) that's what keeps

us coming back , that is what to many classes offered has taken away at the District level.

I have travelled from Florida to Ottawa for just that reason and I don't ever rember having

a three boat heat at any of the large events not including dead wood .

My favorite site by far is Atlanta racing against the best the hobby has to offer (Simpsons , Browns etc. ).

Theese races will never suffer from having to many classes other than the time needed to run all the heats.

It is the smaller race held at the Ditrict level were that competition is hard to find there is just

way to many options for classes and not enough people to make it interesting.

Do the math , how many boats show up at a district level race maybe eighty on average devide that into classes offered you end up with maybe a couple strong classes and a lot very weak ones.

I intend to run in the most popular classes in my District next seaon not because I like that type of boat but simply to get the most bang for my buck because that is were the competition is.

Tim

 

[dr gary turner]

Tim, I have some boats that I have for just the bigger races. It is interesting that in district 5 twin is one of the bigger events at races!!!!!!!!! Why??????????? Well seversl of us have had twins for 25+ yrs. Recently some individuals such as Joe Warren recently in the last 2-3 yrs started to run twins as well. The class has been promoted, in fact Joe has sponsored a traveling trophy that is huge. As a result the class has gotten even bigger and in fact sparked the twin group in IMPBA to establish twin as a seperate class and US-1 category. 20+ twins show up at major races. By the way it is these twin guys who bring 5 other boats to a race as well which makes the big races even larger.

The point is promotion and talking up the races and you will get more participants. If we talk about how bad it is talk long enough about how bad it is it will be bad. We have great races in district 5 and usually plenty of boats in most classes. Many of us also travel a lot and that helps encourage others to come to our races as well. Doc

 

[vanduzer]

We just got done with a race in Elmira N.Y. and we actullay had time to run 5 heats! Things are deffenetly slowing down in district 1. Gas prices are not helping with the racing this year.

We had to really push to get all the the classes in 4 rounds in the old days. We would race from 9 till 8 on Sat and sun 8:30 till 3 on sun. Our July races would have anywhere from 200 to 250 boats, it was nuts.

I got to see some of the greatest racer in the east coast and Canada race.If you got a 5th place you did really well. I have had so many great memories from the racing over the last few decades, I could tell stories for weeks.

The biggest problem I feel is that there is not enough new boaters are getting involed to replace the older boaters leaving. If you go to a boat race the aveage age is over 45 years old. One way we are thinking of is starting a RTR pull start class for beginners. There is alot of good quality boats built for under $400 with a radio . People are not going to spend $700 or more for a new hobby that they are not sure if they like and lets face it we all have been burn on E-bay getting a cheap boat stuff. If the dad races boat ,he can get a RtR for his kid or wife to race. I doubt even the wealthy Tim Kish could afford boats for all his kids to race. You could do 4 laps instead of six laps,and the boats go slow enough I don't think they would do much damage in a collision. Hell the 20 tunnels Excaliber II we old folks started with in the 70's and 80's probably didn't go any faster they a 18 ci RtR of today.

The two many classes

It would be hard to cut down classes at a race . This year in Elmira this year we had to combine some of the classes with the bigger Engine sizes. With both nitro and gas boats it makes alot of classes to have at a race. I will be the first to admit that the first gas boat I saw in the mid 80's I thought who would run these slow boats. Man was I wrong they are fast as hell and so very popular and reliable.

I think sport 20 Tunnel has help to control cost in alot of ways. Another way is to make a less expensive class is use the $130 o.s. 21 inboard motor in a class. Use the O.s. motor stock and maybe a mono or even a Cat classs. Everyone has a old 20 mono in the basement, put the o.s. motor in it with a $50 dollar radio and you are racing. It would be a great boat class for a novice or kid to start with. A guy at our club races the $130 O.S. motor in a seducer and it run pretty good. Is it as fast as a Nova Rossi no, but it is cheaper. You can have a regular 20 mono class and then the O.S. one.

$130 for motor and header

$50 radio

$75 for old seducer or twincraft

I'am sure there must be some cheap Gas engines that could be used to do a class too.

I'am sure that I have written enough for now, I have alot more ideas.

If anyone wants to not post and e-mail me they can [email protected] I will even return E-mails from Tim Kish :<] I have not had a chance to pick on Tim in a long time so this is my chance.

Dave Van Duzer

 

[Tim Kish]

Hey Dave

I think you will have a better turnout for the shootout in September a few people

are planning on attending that one.

That has always been my favorite format for racing.

As for picking on me , you have a long way to go to reach the level your Dad is on he is a master at

picking on me :lol: but keep trying.

Good to hear from you and tell your Dad I said hi.

Tim K

\

We just got done with a race in Elmira N.Y. and we actullay had time to run 5 heats! Things are deffenetly slowing down in district 1. Gas prices are not helping with the racing this year.

We had to really push to get all the the classes in 4 rounds in the old days. We would race from 9 till 8 on Sat and sun 8:30 till 3 on sun. Our July races would have anywhere from 200 to 250 boats, it was nuts.

I got to see some of the greatest racer in the east coast and Canada race.If you got a 5th place you did really well. I have had so many great memories from the racing over the last few decades, I could tell stories for weeks.

The biggest problem I feel is that there is not enough new boaters are getting involed to replace the older boaters leaving. If you go to a boat race the aveage age is over 45 years old. One way we are thinking of is starting a RTR pull start class for beginners. There is alot of good quality boats built for under $400 with a radio . People are not going to spend $700 or more for a new hobby that they are not sure if they like and lets face it we all have been burn on E-bay getting a cheap boat stuff. If the dad races boat ,he can get a RtR for his kid or wife to race. I doubt even the wealthy Tim Kish could afford boats for all his kids to race. You could do 4 laps instead of six laps,and the boats go slow enough I don't think they would do much damage in a collision. Hell the 20 tunnels Excaliber II we old folks started with in the 70's and 80's probably didn't go any faster they a 18 ci RtR of today.

The two many classes

It would be hard to cut down classes at a race . This year in Elmira this year we had to combine some of the classes with the bigger Engine sizes. With both nitro and gas boats it makes alot of classes to have at a race. I will be the first to admit that the first gas boat I saw in the mid 80's I thought who would run these slow boats. Man was I wrong they are fast as hell and so very popular and reliable.

I think sport 20 Tunnel has help to control cost in alot of ways. Another way is to make a less expensive class is use the $130 o.s. 21 inboard motor in a class. Use the O.s. motor stock and maybe a mono or even a Cat classs. Everyone has a old 20 mono in the basement, put the o.s. motor in it with a $50 dollar radio and you are racing. It would be a great boat class for a novice or kid to start with. A guy at our club races the $130 O.S. motor in a seducer and it run pretty good. Is it as fast as a Nova Rossi no, but it is cheaper. You can have a regular 20 mono class and then the O.S. one.

$130 for motor and header

$50 radio

$75 for old seducer or twincraft

I'am sure there must be some cheap Gas engines that could be used to do a class too.

I'am sure that I have written enough for now, I have alot more ideas.

If anyone wants to not post and e-mail me they can [email protected] I will even return E-mails from Tim Kish :<] I have not had a chance to pick on Tim in a long time so this is my chance.

Dave Van Duzer

 

[Randy Rapedius]

TIM ...... TIM!!!!!!!!! Say it ain't so!!!!!!!!!!!

You are going to race Sport 21 Tunnel ????????

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[AlanN]

This has been some interesting reading.

I have only raced electrics for some time now and we too are suffering the same situation.

If you think you guys have alot of classes...check out our listings! We use alot of the same hulls for different classes too. It has been common for me to load up with 6-7 hulls in my wagon and wrench all weekend with barely saying "hello" to many friends in the FE world.

And since we have been accepted to run at some gas/nitro events we have even mor to choose from.

Our core club went from 20+ to less than 5 in the last 10 yrs.

And yes we suffer from the same problems when trying to get new members..."it costs how much!" Well, we all know that this is not a cheap hobby.

So in our efforts to maintain a club and race regularly we(our base club CAFE) has joined a local IMPBA gas club (Perfomance Model Boaters) and have been welcomed by them. We hope to not only race with them at the same pond but eventually be able to race along side them in a few classes. That is my hope anyway. They seem very open to the electric setups and are looking to learn a bit from us. It so far has been a good relationship. Very simple..they want new members and so do we.

Also, I like the idea of running 5 heats compared to the normal 3 we FE'ers have grown accustom to. We have decided to run fewer classes with some added heats to our annual race this year. Trying to cut down on the amount of gear travellers have to bring and to have a laid back relaxing race. We also use a bit of NAMBA and IMPBA rules with a few home grown ideas into our format.

I like the way you have altered your points base too. There will be more good quality racing in the future and am glad to see that you guys are trying to make things interestingon your side of the pond.

 

[Tim Kish]

TIM ...... TIM!!!!!!!!! Say it ain't so!!!!!!!!!!!

You are going to race Sport 21 Tunnel ????????

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hey Randy (K,O,T,G) :lol:

Not sure if I am going to race it , I bought it for a different reason and after reading all the sh@%t on this site lately I don't know if I will ever bother with racing again.

Sport tunnel is by far the largest class in D-1 so If I do decide to race next year I know there will be more than two other boats to race against.

Tim K

 

[Preston_Hall]

after reading all the sh@%t on this site lately I don't know if I will ever bother with racing again.

Right with you on that. All I do is say that our club is mostly gas and I get all kinds of garbage. Which, the only reason it is gas is because like you say, all other classes are 3 boat heats and not worth the race.

 

[bzubee]

I'll tel you my opinion of what is wrong with racing NOT enough workers helping at races ! You usually have to beg for help at races. Club members for th emost part would rather sit back and let someone else do the work. It finally got me burned out. I race at out of town races now.

 

[Bob Kensill]

I go to the races for two main reasons. I love the competition and racing in general. I also love to meet new racers and see the ones I have known for years. Here's my outlook on what is going on.

1; Gas prices. Not a factor. The average driver drives his car 15000 miles a year and get 20 miles per gallon. At $3.00 per gallon that works out to $2250.00 per year in gas. How much of that is spent driving to the races?

2; Equipment cost. New engines have gone up just like everything else. So why not buy used if cost is an issue. Or run a smaller engine class. At the IMPBA Internats,21 mod tunnel and 21 sport tunnel were the two biggest classes. Boat prices have not risen as much as engine prices but radio prices have gone down. Fuel and glow plugs have gone up more than the others because the hobby industry does not use a large enough share of the materials used in these products to have any leverage on pricing.

3; Food and lodging. Here is where you can still save some money. Pack your own food and shop around or put more people in your room to save on hotel prices.

4; Since all these others are not the main reason for not getting new boaters or keeping the old ones I would say that we,the experienced boaters, need to solve the other issues. Listening to all the "crybabies" complaining about their "illegally loud" boats was enough to send any potential new boater away in a hurry. We all dissagree on some issue at some time. Let's handle it a little more professionally. I for one,could care less about getting more trohpies. I have 25 years worth stacked on shelves gathering dust now! Prizes would be nice,but given randomly and not for winning. This way everyone has the same chance. The guy that wins a race probably doesn't need a new boat or engine,so why not let everyone have a chance. I race in several districts so points are meaningless. Being district champion doesn't always mean you were the best,it means that you were able to attend more races. To me the most important issue to get and keep racers coming back is the FUN issue. We all can do something to help our fellow boaters have more fun. The truly great racers are the ones that give of themselves at a race. Whether it is their time,knowledge or maybe giving or loaning something that lets another boater run his/her boat. Get you wife or girlfriend into racing and she will be more willing to go with you to the races. And don't forget the kids too! They are the future of model boat racing.

 

[GMCSW7]

My two Lincolns worth:

All I can say to this if you offer money as a prize for winning a race, I won’t be racing! I use to race RC cars and people can turn-in to real A-holes when money or gift certificates are involved (and we have enough of those with just points and wood as the prize).

I would have to say there are too many classes of boats and one to many organization.

One day it will be like IRL (Indy Racing League) when driver and owners didn’t like the way the rules were going so owners splintered off and started CART racing and when that happened both leagues suffered in attendance and cars staring the field. I hate to use the NASCAR example but they have there act together with visibility, sponsorship and attendance.

Hopefully one day, some young kids from NAMBA and IMPBA with the goal of having good racing will decide its best to combine the organizations together for the benefit of all. [/b] This won't happen with the people we have now, the BIG PICTURE is, it’s dying before our eyes and clubs will be dead in a lot of district before you know it.

Visibility is one problem!

Too many classes is another!

The insight to realize that tapping into the RTR boats as a class is another!

RTR are the biggest seller and the cheapest way to get in to racing and we don’t and will not ALL promote it as an additional class because there is not enough time to race all the classes we have now. Which most people agree that watching a three boat race is not that eventful but, clubs recognize that the reason people come to their event is to run the boats that they have (and everyone has their favorite class of boat!).

What is the ratio of young boater to older boater currently in each organization? Probably not good!!!

It’s easy to recognize that the IMPBA and NAMBA are not big compared to the AMA or ROAR or the other RC organization but we seem to be the most divided!!!!!

Steve

 

[SayMikey]

My two Lincolns worth:

All I can say to this if you offer money as a prize for winning a race, I won’t be racing! I use to race RC cars and people can turn-in to real A-holes when money or gift certificates are involved (and we have enough of those with just points and wood as the prize).

I would have to say there are too many classes of boats and one to many organization.

One day it will be like IRL (Indy Racing League) when driver and owners didn’t like the way the rules were going so owners splintered off and started CART racing and when that happened both leagues suffered in attendance and cars staring the field. I hate to use the NASCAR example but they have there act together with visibility, sponsorship and attendance.

Hopefully one day, some young kids from NAMBA and IMPBA with the goal of having good racing will decide its best to combine the organizations together for the benefit of all. [/b] This won't happen with the people we have now, the BIG PICTURE is, it’s dying before our eyes and clubs will be dead in a lot of district before you know it.

Visibility is one problem!

Too many classes is another!

The insight to realize that tapping into the RTR boats as a class is another!

RTR are the biggest seller and the cheapest way to get in to racing and we don’t and will not ALL promote it as an additional class because there is not enough time to race all the classes we have now. Which most people agree that watching a three boat race is not that eventful but, clubs recognize that the reason people come to their event is to run the boats that they have (and everyone has their favorite class of boat!).

What is the ratio of young boater to older boater currently in each organization? Probably not good!!!

It’s easy to recognize that the IMPBA and NAMBA are not big compared to the AMA or ROAR or the other RC organization but we seem to be the most divided!!!!!

Steve

Steve your wife called and said you got tooo many boats. Bring them sat and i will give you a dollar a piece which is fair considering she is going to run them over with your truck. If she can find the keys..... Racing is not dead by any means 170 in Chicago wowzers sounds like d-4 is alive and kicking.....Mike

 

[AWaddle322]

Some of you keep camparing us to nascar. We are not like nascar and we probably should be. Nascar is run like a business. The IMPBA is not run like a business. it is run kinda like a hobby until it comes to a dollar then it is run like something but i do not know how to describe it (and it would nopt be postitive anyway).

Nascar is also like it is racing orginization. Impba is run like people that play with toy boats and the few of us that race our races boats are critizied when we see something we dont like and try to get it changed.

This is no reflection of the current administition as it is beeing run as it always has.

Sincerley,

Allen

 

[GMCSW7]

Steve

Steve your wife called and said you got tooo many boats. Bring them sat and i will give you a dollar a piece which is fair considering she is going to run them over with your truck. If she can find the keys..... Racing is not dead by any means 170 in Chicago wowzers sounds like d-4 is alive and kicking.....Mike

Mikey,

Might take you up on it! beats four flat tires (are we racing mod tunnel too?)

Yes, 170 boaters in Chicago area with a population of almost 3 million potential boater?

If only they new what they were missing!! lol

Steve

 

[Geraghty]

Some of you keep camparing us to nascar. We are not like nascar and we probably should be. Nascar is run like a business. The IMPBA is not run like a business. it is run kinda like a hobby until it comes to a dollar then it is run like something but i do not know how to describe it (and it would nopt be postitive anyway).

Nascar is also like it is racing orginization. Impba is run like people that play with toy boats and the few of us that race our races boats are critizied when we see something we dont like and try to get it changed.

This is no reflection of the current administition as it is beeing run as it always has.

Sincerley,

Allen

When you talk NASCAR vs. IMPBA,you are talking apples and oranges.

There is one hell of a difference between IMPBA and NASCAR and it isn't their business practices,it is their mission.

IMPBA is to run model boats,NASCAR is to make money.

The IMPBA is a "membership" run organization.All the decisions in IMPBA are made by the membership.The membership votes in their officers and the membership also has to approve all rules and their changes.All 99% of the IMPBA members want is to do is race their model boats.

NASCAR on the otherhand is completely different.NASCAR is wholey owned by the France family.No team owner,driver,sponsor or card carrying member has one share of stock in NASCAR.

NASCAR is the employer and the teams,owners,drivers and members are the employees.

NASCAR isn't a democracy.NASCAR is a benevolent dictatorship.In short NASCAR[the Frances] make the rules and if you don't want to play by the rules then just pack up your sxxt and head for home and NASCAR doesn't care if you ever come back.There are at least 10 big money teams in the wings ready to take your place and fill the void.That doesn't mean that NASCAR doesn't work with sponsors,owners etc,etc,etc, they do,but the final decision is the Frances.

Every decision NASCAR makes is designed to increase fan participation.The more fans,the more money "everybody" makes.NASCAR is in the business of making BIG $$$$$$ for "everybody" and they have been very successful at doing just that.

By definition,all "membership" run organizations do is tax its members[dues] and spend money.NASCAR is in the business of making big money for everyone.

Over the years the France family has done one hell of a job promoting and NASCAR has evolved to point where NASCAR has several hours a week of TV time.Big time sponsors will pay dearly to have their name on TV for 3-4 hours straight at a NEXTEL Cup race.

When it costs a million dollars for a 30 second commercial during a Superbowl game,the price of a NEXTEL Cup sponsorship is a hell of a buy.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with racing today.It is what it is.

Every new boater that comes in to the hobby has absolutely no idea that there used to be only 10 classes or there were 7 boat heats back in 1974,or we used to run with no mufflers or with no safety nets in 1981 etc,etc,etc and once more they could care less.

There are over 1000 members in IMPBA and,I believe,about 2500+ in NAMBA,and who knows how many in APBA.At any given time there are maybe 50 that are unhappy about something or someone.That isn't what you would call a serious threat to the health of model boat racing.

If you are unhappy with the current state of model boat racing either adapt, work for and propose a change that you can get past the membership or move on to something else that will fill your needs.There are no other options.

 

[shoboat]

Rod,

You have it right on. Thanks for saving me all the typing. I couldn't agree more.

Have Fun, It's Just A Hobby Fellas,

Mark Sholund

 

[Terry Flynn]

I understand everything that your saying Rod. I've only been in this hobby for 2 years and I love it I don't know anything about the past but I do hear story's and I wish I would have gotten in to the hobby much sooner.

the rules that are in place I don't have a problem with I don't know any better. what people are talking about to many classes. like someone said it's personal preference what some one want's to race. you talk about a 3 boat heat. I race a lot of 3 boat heats and it's fun and it's still plenty of completive the only difference I could imagine is running a 7 boat heat and trying to avoid the dead wood or taking a chance of you boat that died getting creamed. I have 7 boats all quite expensive and I don't get to race everyone like my 7.5 hydro there isn't very many racing on a regular bases. but it to me it doesn't matter it all in the competition and there is still plenty out there.

Terry

 

[Don Ferrette]

Thank you Rod!! B)

 

[Tony Jacuzzi]

Rod:

AMEN Brother,... now maybe that poor dead mules body will get some peace.. Tony J