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Mark

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
254
I would like to know which is more important for saw runs,

is it power or boat design? I understand that the less area in the water the less drag you have but if the prop and hull are set-up correctly what is the main deciding factor that will make a fast saw boat. Is a 90 size engine in a rigger the only way to go, what about gas boats, what is the best combination?

I have a rigger with a 67 engine and was thinking of building a saw boat.

Does anyone have any info they would like to share?

Thanks.
 
Mark, to me SAW hulls are purpose built, that is they do one thing very well. Tradeoffs are common in the search for more top end. In the 67 class I might recommend Andy Brown and the SG rigger. http://www.cmdracing.com

Gene ;D
 
Boat design and the right prop is ALOT more important than the motor in a SAW boat. The lighter you are the faster you go! The trick is making a micro boat turn a monster prop and go strait.

Like Terry Keely says: Ain't as easy as it looks
 
Mark, these guys are right...weight and a nice clean running boat are the most important things in SAW. I could talk for pages and pages about the stuff I think about when designing/building a SAW boat, but weight and basic design are always top on the list.

Yes you do need a good engine, but it does not have to be modified to the extreme. What you want is a nice tight engine with a good seal and piston/sleeve fit. You will need to plan on playing with head clearence, pipes, plugs and props, but you dont need to worry too much about the port timings, etc. until you are really fine tuning and looking for the last little bit of speed.

Glenn
 
Ian, it is really early in the morning here in Georgia and I can't sleep (got boat race stuff on the brain!) so I will be happy to start with some of my ideas, but probably not pages worth today.

-First, SAW running is a whole different sport than heat racing and you must have a different frame of mind about a lot of things you do.

-Consistency is not much of a factor in SAW. It is not important to have your boat run 6 laps every time you launch it. You want one pass each direction on perfect water as fast as it will go...THATS ALL YOU ARE LOOKING FOR. In fact Ross' .12 boat is WAY too consistent...it runs back and forth the length of the lake with every pass within a couple mph of each other for the full tank of fuel. And it has NEVER blown off or crashed...this is bad because it tells me it is not close enough to the ragged edge of max performance. There is more speed to get out of it. I am happy with a launch, a pass or two the get the motor warm and three solid passes...after that the boat should be getting a little light.

-RPM is speed. Weight is RPM. If a fraction of an ounce lighter will let the motor turn the same prop an extra RPM then it is worth it! SAW boats should be built to be disposable. They don't need to last for years (or maybe even months!) or have fancy paint jobs, they just need to be fast! Yea, you need prop pitch to go fast, but you need to turn it fast enough to be in the motor's powerband.

-Getting the motor's HP to the water is very important. The motor mount system, stuffing box, strut, drive shaft, drive dog, prop and prop nut has to be very solid, vibration free, smooth and streamlined. You don't want to use your HP to turn the cable in a bunch of thick grease or binding stuffing box. You don't want you prop beating the water to death instead of pushing it (I can tell when the prop is working and the boat is going fast because the rooster tail will lay down real flat and be real solid looking)

-Water drag is bad! Don't have anything touching the water that doesn't have to. For a rigger that means the very back edge of the front sponsons (NOT TOO WIDE) and the bottom part of the prop. A turn fin is not necessary on a lot of boats, but if one is needed it should be small. SAW boats don't drive like heat race boats...they kinda coast through most (maybe all) of the turn and then accelerate like a shot out of a gun when you pull the trigger.

Well, without going into great detail (lack of space and sleep) about how I take care of each of the above topics, this is a basic overview of what I consider to be important for SAW.

I will be happy to provide more detail later if requested.

Glenn
 
Hi Glenn

Aaron here from Australia could u talk more about SAW boats and engine props as i'm just finishing of my 67 SAW boat u r right last season i ran over 100mph with a box stock cmb it does come down to a good boat and a prop, i have found that prop's are the biggest link to the chain

thank's regard's Aaron
 
Glenn,

Good stuff, keep it up! ;D

In term of getting the motor's power to the water, your engines are solid mounted aren't they? Have you ever determined how much power is lost thru rubber mounts? Also you said you used the very small diameter flex in the 12 boat, was there any advantage measured over the 3/16 cable? I would think that the 3/16 cable would be stiffer in torque, thus transmitting the power better. I am thinking of using 1/4" cable in the next 45 boat I build.

The SAW boats have to work thru an enourmous speed range, the engines have to be able to rev out very well for max speed, and the boat riding surfaces are reduced for minimal drag at high speed. This must make the boats difficult to launch as this is the speed furthest from which the boat has been optimised. Are there any tricks to the boat design and launch technique to overcome this?

For minimising water drag, have you experimented with the rudder wedge angle? How do you determine an optimum rudder size? I have founf that when I made rudders smaller that I also had more problems with prop walk.

Interesting stuff.

Ian.
 
Hey Glenn,

Great post! Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.

I have a question for you - what are your preferences - using square drive flex shafts or the more "conventional" clamping collet arangement? Is there more friction loss in either type?

Tim.
 
I am soooo glad Glenn is here, for the longest time I thought that I was the only one bit by the SAW bug :)

He is correct it requires a different mindset both in design and running.

You cant get to attached to your boat cause if something goes wrong at top end the hull might come apart, I rebuilt one of mine three times!!! As far as launching, a good flat toss and not too much throttle worked for me.

Tom and I both know about the full throttle wheelies with the FireFighter's :eek:

Gene ;D
 
Tim,

From what Glenn has said previously he uses conventional flex hexes. I prefer square drives IF proper ball thrust bearings are used. You felt the low friction drive train on my 90 mono at the nats..... 8)

I will be interested to see Glenn's view on it tho.... ;D

Ian.
 
Ian,

The drive on your mono was awesome - almost zero drag. It has inspired me to find a similar set-up.

I have always used the conventional flex hex and have been trying to get my head around how I could go to a square drive arangement in the 80SG - there is not much room between the "centre sponson" and the strut for a ferrule. Plus the strut supports the stuffing tube.

I will start another thread on this subject and leave the SAW stuff for here.
 
Hi Doods

I started this thread on the other list bot there has been plenty of vews but it seams no one want's to coment so i thought it would be more suted to this thred

This will be a discussion on the pros and cons of the different approaches that model boaters use to design a SWA rigger.

The four types of riggers that are used at this moment are.

·  The three point (the two front sponsons and the prop)

·  The three point (the two front sponsons and a single rear centre sponson prop not included)

·  The four point (the two front sponsons and the two rear sponsons the prop not included)

·  The five point (the two front sponsons the two rear sponsons and a single rear centre sponson prop not included)

In these four groups Things to consider weight, weight distribution, drag, stability, aerodynamics, construction materials and any thing else that I haven’t mentioned or thought of.

I know there are some very knowledgeable modellers on the list bot and I hope you will contribute to this discussion it will help every one in the long run.

Regards

Paul
 
TimD,

By the way there was a lot more to my 90 drive train than simply square drive. There is ball thrust bearings, needle roller bearings and surface hard shafts too..... And I use teflon liners too, even tho everyone else seems to hate them.....

Ian.
 
Ozzy,

Does this mean you are building a record boat? :eek: ???

It is interesting that most of the US record boats are very small with big engines. But the 90 and 67 record boats in Australia were full size 80 SG's and 67 SG's, so clearly the speeds can be done with full size boats.

As far as I know both boats were 4 point (ie no centre ski) but the photo of Tony's SG on his website at 100 mph shows the strut and hub of the prop clearly out of the water so at speed it was effectively a 3 point boat.

Some pictures I have seen of Andy Browns SAW SG's had the single ski only at the back.

Ian.
 
TimD,

By the way there was a lot more to my 90 drive train than simply square drive. There is ball thrust bearings, needle roller bearings and surface hard shafts too..... And I use teflon liners too, even tho everyone else seems to hate them.....

Ian.
can you give me some pic's of your dismantled setup from the mono? Are you using the same setup in the Hummingbird?

Tim.
 
Hey I have a spare centre ski from my SG 45... I put a ferrule setup in it (even though it is not square drive) so I decided not to use the centre ski as well.

Just went with the 2 outside rears. I think I may need to drop the strut a little to get them out of the water on the straights.... but then again the nats was the first run for the SG... still gotta sort that boat out in many ways.

EMS Racing Winning isnt everything...... well ok... yes it is!!!
 
Tim,

Sorry, no pics. I have never photgraphed it. I dont have access to a digital camera yet and haven't even got a film in my SLR.

Yes I use the same basic setup on the Hummingbird, but with a minor improvement. I use exhaust oil to pressure lubricate the needle roller strut so I dont have to pack it with grease. I am not using teflon with that boat either, but that is only becuse they come with the stuffig tube fitted and it cant fit teflon.

I can describe it if you like. I may have even done so a while ago, I dont remember.

Craig,

Steve Gruber had the same dilema with his twin SG and ferrules, he made up two outer sponsons and didn't use the ski's, and his boat works fine!

You need to get that motor screaming yet! :p

Ian.
 
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