One for debate!

[CySlyde]

Ok i don't race... and i don't own a tunnel yet but i do want to add a comment. While racing mtn bikes and full size cars I subscribed to a very controversial school of thought, and that is

"if it is not spelled out as a flat out no in the rule book it is not illeagle yet!"

trust me there were quite a few races i came way too close to being disqualified for questionable setups or tricks and a couple of times i was DQ'ed. I do say yet, because there are several times where a setting or short cut can be rulled as an unfair practice, or times when just too many start doing it and the governing body says enough.

now if the question is should it be illeagle i can't say much other than unless it's causing an unfair advantage or an unsafe enviornment why make it illeagle? if he's winning a lot of races and you aren't... try it maybe he's onto something good.

-nothing can wreck my opinion of a beautiful hydro faster than a really outa place pipe-

 

[lohring-miller]

Though I am not an IMPBA member, I would like to point out that this question is covered under Technical Standards in the IMPBA rule book. There, on page K-7, the rules for certifying a hull and protesting it. Though I have not submitted any Leecraft hull to the IMPBA Technical Committee, I assume this was done in the distant past. It should be possible to get a ruling on this subject.

Lohring Miller

 

[lohring-miller]

After racing sail boats for years, I don't understand model boat racers reluctance to protest. In sail boat racing there was almost never a race without a protest. This was not a criminal procedure, it was really a continuation of the race. New rules where a contestant admitted he was wrong and performed a penalty maneuver helped the situation. In model racing this would be like a point deduction or lap penalty. The alternative was to risk disqualification at the protest meeting.

Formal protests build a body of rule decisions that become the rules. This helps clarify all the points that people "understand" but were overlooked when the rules were written.

Lohring Miller

 

[user 115]

Mr. O/B Director,

Opinion please.

Charley

 

[Jack Garcia]

Formal protests build a body of rule decisions that become the rules. This helps clarify all the points that people "understand" but were overlooked when the rules were written.

Lohring Miller

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Ok, guess I will put my 2 cents in.

I agree with Lohring, and I confess I am a purist, and OB tunnels (next to my wife) are my first love. I still like to see a driver in the cockpit. I'm not against inovations, this is how our sport evolved, but I am against taking away from realism. Never saw a full size OPC tunnel with a turn fin hanging out the side of it. Ok, the rules don't say you can't, but can we use common sense here. Reminds me of the boater at a nationals that had an onboard glow driver hooked up to the glow plug while he was racing. Upon protest his comment was, rules don't say I can't. True, but K&B also did not include a glow driver with each glow plug to be hooked up while racing. There's another ruling ya'll can kick around later.

 

[Slideblues]

Well I just wrote Mikie Z. that I was gonna stay outta this one, But I like following Jack G. Hope'n sum dat wisdom will rub off there buddy ;D

Lohring, no one here is bashin Leecraft, it just happins that the driver in question is runnin one with a outside mounted turn fin.

My opnion is the fin is NOT NEEDED, in any way shape or form.

As far as the rules, thats for higher ups to make up their minds on not me. If you take the time to learn the hull and set it up proper, they can run with the best of Em!!!

OK, I am done,

Gene ;D

 

[Grimracer]

Tunnel Racers

Here is my take.

To be blunt I do not like:

the look

performance enhancement

performance loss

Or possible impact that such a devise could have on Model Tunnel Boat Racing.

What im saying is that such a devise like this, mounted in just such a manner, on a Tunnel Hull Boat. Does not fit the intent or look of the boat. We race our tunnel boats in a oval (hence the opportunity for a turn fin) and maybe this should be looked into also.. This is a topic for another post….

The few things that I see there is that when tunnel hull model boats first were oozing there way in to model boat racing we had a flood of designers coming on board to try and figure out how to make these things run. The turn fin (used for years in hydroplane racing) seemed like the right thing to do so tunnels were set up this way. Along with this I would guess that the tunnel met with some opposition as to what is it. A mono with the center cut out, or a hydroplane?

My answer to this is neither.

I think its time to get the tunnels out of the hydroplane definition and think about creating its own definition. I for the life of me cannot understand why we keep it this way. The boats are without question different. I do not want to hear any poop about cats and monos running together in offshore or that cats and hydros can run together. and blah blah…I do not care. A cat is not tunnel as I see it. The competition intent of the design is completely different. Have you ever heard of FI offshore? It could be out there but I have never seen this.

My real concern is that it will take away what we know now as a realistic looking, (we have to be careful with this) realistic running. (Again we have to be careful with this) class that lots of people enjoy because the boats can be related to the real boats they see on TV, at the races and all around the world.

I would also hate to see tunnels become a thingies class. We have a place for that and its Hydroplane (stick boats).

I have to say also that without new ideas this hobby would get boring in a big hurry. I also think that innovation is the real kick that drives me and lots of other people to go faster, meet new people to add fuel to those ideas and so on and so forth.. Despite having said I still feel that turn fins could be eliminated completely from model tunnel boat racing with little to no impact on the hobby. Maybe its time to draft a new set of standards that fit the way a tunnel boat is designed. (boy am I going to get blasted for that) O well its all part of the game.

Be talking to you soon.

Mike Z

IMBPA OBD

 

[topfuel443]

Id have to agree and support Mike on this at this point of the debate. I also feel that outside mounted turn fins should not be allowed on a "tunnel" hull. That being the main point of this discussion.

As for tunnels being classed in the same class as hydro's with cats and riggers......., well all they do run on a cushion of air in the "tunnel", but thats the ONLY thing similar between the three. I think the hull descriptions (for all hulls) in the IMPBA rule book could be better written, to provide a more precise difference between the three hydro hull types. Theres lots of things in the IMPBA rule book that are outdated and need to be rewritten, however this takes time and also takes someone to actually bring up the recommended changes so the membership can vote on it. Not often done, but always a controversy.

I, however, dont think we should take it to the point of outboard tunnel hulls being a true "scale" class, that would be a bit excessive.

What can be done? Who will do it? Any body got a proposal? Or does the majority feel it should stay the way it is?

~ James

 

[Jack Garcia]

Garcia sez " HEAR HEAR MIKE" ;D

 

[MarkScott]

Grim,

Right ON, Rock ON...

I've been into running R/C boats since the mid 80's. My first boat was a tunnel. After almost 20 years, I have a few non-tunnels in my collection, which is around 25 boats. When I began, tunnels were considered the 'beginners' boat. I fell in love with this class and have no desire to move away.. Ok, maybe 1/8 scale. But tunnels will always be #1 for me. ;D

Rules are made to be changed. It's about time to change these rules to bring them into the 21st century.. Tunnel need to have their own definitions. True to what the REAL boats run. As Jack pointed out, it's nice to see a driver, but with today's tunnels, they are enclosed. Rules could state if open cockpit, then a driver must be seen.

Mark.

OB Nut.

 

[[email protected]]

All to many times we questions rules and rule bending. My opinion is the rules don't say that you can't have it so we "have to except it" so to speak and let that person use it. Also, will any steps be taken to vote that into rule modification this year?

As a personel feeling it shouldn't be allowed at all. We need the basics of some similarities to the real boats. I had asked Grim if he could do a cock-pitted window similar to how Maus used to do for his boats so it could really looked detailed. Now I know people aren't gonna jump at changing their molds because I asked but it would make the boats look like a real replica similar to the 1/8 scale class. As for the Villain it is a real looking tunnel. There are some that are more aero dynamic and run fantastic but as me and GTR have talked about don't look real. Hope no one who makes tunnels take offense to that, just my opinion.

 

[MikeP]

I agree with Grim too.

Stand off scale I think they call it. Resembles a real Tunnel from a distance not with a micrometer.

Mike

 

[Bob Kensill]

If you want scale appearance then none of your hulls are legal. I still have my International Hobbies Velden hull with a gear-drive lower unit,powertrim and a scale Evinrude V8 cowl. I groung off the seam between the hull and deck and glassed it over. I also have a full GI Joe with lifejacket and helmet in the cockpit. He is held in by his grip on the steering wheel. I raced this boat several years ago and Joe never fell out!

Bob

 

[GTR]

Hi Guy's

I'm all for 'scalish' appearance but I would not have that and take away good performance because of it. The very reason I designed/molded my own cowl is that for a very subtle alteration of the shape it can be made to look more 'real'. I'll admit my cowling is inspired by the DPI and is a 'Seebold stye'. I don't think this detracts form the hull but rather makes a racing tunnel loosley appear like full scale. Other than that the biggest improvement to 'scale looking' can come from full scale inspired paint schemes - which are generally quite simple in design but designed as moving billboards. All of this improves the 'look' of racing - from a spectators point of view (where our new racers come from) without taking anything away from the racers enjoyment.

My only concern would be if the concept of tunnels became a pure racing class you will end up with purely functional hull designs as has happened over time with the outrigger boats. I even find it a little difficult to call outriggers boats as they are pure racing hulls with nothing in common with boats other than running on water. A bit harsh maybe but this sort of racing for racings sake pushes development in that direction and away from the grass roots.

I think the answer is -

There is no easy solution and the rules will need to be carefully recrafted. I don't envy you guy's trying to sort this out now before it's too late.

GT :

 

[Ron Olson]

OK, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here so don't get rattled. A newbie comes to a race with an outdated design that has the turn fin on it on the inside of the right sponson at the CG. The new ruling says no turn fins on a tunnel. Does he remove it and it affects it's already crappy handling or does he pack it up and go home?

A lot of us have gotten our first Nitro racing experience with a 3.5 OB tunnel boat. Almost real looking and easier to setup and build for a newbie. Let's not go in too deep with detail such as detailed cockpits and saying that it will have to be painted plus appear like a real F1 tunnel boat. Would the boats such as the VanHouten boat be illegal? I've never seen a cowling like that on a full-sized boat. Not to piss off Mike, but I haven't seen any of those little wings like what is on your design or the cut in half 1/8 scale buggy rear wings like what J.D. uses on his boats. First it's turn fins then next it will be something else. Yes, I love the tunnel boats too. The Devil's Advocate is now off the soap box.

 

[CySlyde]

It is cool to see a buch of tunnels flying arround a course, but i think if you guys do decide to do a split you need to factor in older boats, that may have features you do not totally agree with, as long as that was how the original boat was manufactured.

maybe you could make a new class that would allow for a "scale" boat, and leave the ability to run in the current classes if someone doesnt want to run in the new class. I'm not saying it has to be totally scale ie engine covers and geared lowerunits, but something that those of you who want a more scale apperence could opt to run in. as far as paint goes, i like to see creativity with paint, one reason i debate going into 1/8th hydros is because of the seemingly strict rules on painting, although a really cool thing to see its not always the coolest

 

[topfuel443]

OK, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here so don't get rattled. A newbie comes to a race with an outdated design that has the turn fin on it on the inside of the right sponson at the CG.

I dont have a problem with a fin being on the inside edge of a sponson on a tunnel, its on the outside that I (and I think Mike) dont want to be allowed.

if its on the inside, then its just "helping" (or hurting, depending on how you look at it) the way a real tunnel works anyway, by using the INSIDE edge to turn. But if its on the OUTSIDE it has nothing to do with the way a real tunnel boat utilizes its turning ability...... from the inside edge.

Of course this is my OPINION .........

~ james

 

[Grimracer]

Just as a side note:

Good info or not, when I did the market research on selling the Villain S1 the number one requirement for the boat was a water proof radio box.. The second was realistic looking and the third was winning design. I have the paper work to prove it. Just thought that was cool

BTY this info came right from you guys...

O yea Bob...kung foo grip GI Joe ROCKS.

Grim

 

[Slideblues]

Vertical fin front on top of sponson both sides on Rinker, Lamb, and Seebold. Might need to be specific about the fin location if the rules are changed.

Gene ;D

 

[Foolwitools]

Hi! I guess I'll have a shot.......... being it is a simple modification that has no real design secrets and costs little or nothing to fabricate and install, why not? Most of those who race have made steady improvements to their hulls to keep up with the times. isn't this just another improvement?................