Ninja VS. Hawk

[Guest_Norm Doerr]

What is the difference and or idea behind the back sponsons? Also are there any other changes?

 

[Grimracer]

Norm

The boat is all different. The thing is really just a tribute to Garys design but with an all new attitude.

The rears are different the tub is different and the fronts are different. It has a cowl also.

One thing that I like, is the clamping system that Dumas uses so I use the same clamps but only two bolting holes. Saves weight and works just fine. The tub is 3" wide, the hawk is 4... there is more like the lack of anihedral in the left sponson.

Ron Zaker Jr likes his a ton…Masters camp 2003…

Thanks

also a little plug for Gary Loy (masters champ with the Villain as well.).

Go Power Surge Racing. Hehehe

Grim

 

[Hawk Expert]

Ninja v Hawk

To compare these boats, you need to have the correct version of the Hawk. Once you have done that, you will see the many similarities..

 

[Guest_Norm Doerr]

Cool;

I have a 40 Hawk that I also "butchered" the daylights out of as the result of A LOT of testing and A LOT of tried and failed experiments. My main question is why the rears were cut that way. I went down a similar road but with a twist.

 

[rigger newbe]

Norm,

When you say butchered, do you mean different from the kit plans? Is this the same for the 20 size also? Does the Ninja need butchering from the plans to work?

 

[Guest_Norm Doerr]

Norm,
When you say butchered, do you mean different from the kit plans? Is this the same for the 20 size also? Does the Ninja need butchering from the plans to work?

The tub is the same except for the boom mounts and an added rib inside the radio compartment to support the stuffing tube. The Sponsons are all cut and much skinnier than the kit. Everything on the sponson tops have been changed. I used almost the same angles as with the kit. The sponsons sort of look like a Crapshooter or a Marty Davis boat. Esentially Anything that was not used was done away with .

 

[Grimracer]

Ninja v Hawk
To compare these boats, you need to have the correct version of the Hawk. Once you have done that, you will see the many similarities..

There is a correct version?

How come we have not herd of this before?

All these years and I thought there was only one version. I mean you can only buy one version… (is that what you mean Hawk Expert)

I think that the hawk racers might want to know this. I have friends that are hawk racers. Heck I kike the hawks too..

...why is it that every time we are taking somebody masks...especially for an expert….(hawk expert)

Someone is playing games on our site….Hehehe

Grimracer / Michael J Zaborowski

 

[Grimracer]

Norm,
When you say butchered, do you mean different from the kit plans? Is this the same for the 20 size also? Does the Ninja need butchering from the plans to work?

FYI

There are no plans avalible for the Ninja.. There are CAD drawings for the boat but that is about it.

Grim

 

[Guest_Norm Doerr]

Norm,
When you say butchered, do you mean different from the kit plans?  Is this the same for the 20 size also?  Does the Ninja need butchering from the plans to work?

FYI

There are no plans avalible for the Ninja.. There are CAD drawings for the boat but that is about it.

Grim

Grim

Everything I have mentioned refers to MY Hawk. I have never seen a Ninja except for pictures, (just to clarify). No idea what the other folks are talking about. LOL. I just built my boat as per Gary then went from there with it. I noticed the rears are a huge departure from ANYTHING I have seen. I know if Zakier is running a Ninja the thing has to be a top notch boat.

 

[Grimracer]

Norm

Let me get back to the question.

If we were going to compare the sponson designs of the Ninja and the Hawk here is what you would find.

The hawk has a .5” wide running surface.

The Ninja a 1”

The hawk has a non trip that leads all the way to the top of the sponson

The Ninja has a second top that is lower then the one near the tub.

The Ninjas sponsons is also longer then the hawks.

If your question comes down as to why the Ninjas two tops to the sponsons then the answer is this.. I wanted to get rid of some of the lift that a sponson like the hawks creates as its turning the corner. Even though ride angel is of the rear sponson is critical in the corners having a large trip angel can lead to excess lift on the rear of the boat.

The Ninja unlike other designs, uses this two top design to provide all the down force of a flat top sponson does in the straights but with out the lift that a flat top sponon can generate in the corners…

Hope this helps..

Grim

 

[rigger newbe]

Mike,

I guess this is off the subject a little, but it does fit comparing a hawk to a ninja. The hawk is a box of wood, how do your boats come?

I guess that's what I was getting at with Norm's statment about having to change his from the plans on his 40 boat, it sounds like the ninjas run exactly how they come from your shop, because they are not a box of wood.

Am I understanding this right?

R.N.

 

[rigger newbe]

oops...I see you guys like names at the bottom

Thanks for your replies

Stu TenCate

frpd431

 

[Guest_Norm Doerr]

Norm
Let me get back to the question.

If we were going to compare the sponson designs of the Ninja and the Hawk here is what you would find.

The hawk has a .5” wide running surface.

The Ninja a 1”

The hawk has a non trip that leads all the way to the top of the sponson

The Ninja has a second top that is lower then the one near the tub.

The Ninjas sponsons is also longer then the hawks.

If your question comes down as to why the Ninjas two tops to the sponsons then the answer is this.. I wanted to get rid of some of the lift that a sponson like the hawks creates as its turning the corner. Even though ride angel is of the rear sponson is critical in the corners having a large trip angel can lead to excess lift on the rear of the boat.

The Ninja unlike other designs, uses this two top design to provide all the down force of a flat top sponson does in the straights but with out the lift that a flat top sponon can generate in the corners…

Hope this helps..

Grim

Cool; that is what I was thinking . I just cut some huge angles on my tops and made the riding surface narrower. I gave up a lot of down force. But if you run a 1600 series wheel there is a lot of lift back there. You have a very good idea. I am assuming the fronts are stock?

 

[Grimracer]

Norm,

Front sponsons for the Ninja are:

Low belly

7deg aoa (slant bottom) with a ride of about 5.5 (we have two sets that we have been testing) The first ninja kits had a sponson with slightly less aoa and although a better rough water sponson the 7s are faster on good water only. The lower ones seem to make a better overall heat racing sponson but when the water is good its nice to have the 7s.

(kits still come with the lower 6deg parallel ride pad sponsons)

Flat right sposnsons “no dihedral”

1.5deg dihedral on the left sponson

5.5” flat ride pad.

The hawk…not sure but I think you are looking at about a 3.5 deg ride angle and a 1” wide riding pad on the left sponson. Don’t know how long it is..

The Hawk also has anihedral on the right sponson with some of the same riding numbers.

Grim

 

[AndyBrown]

The bottom line here is that the Hawk is a high production kit designed by Gary and built by Dumas. It can not easily be updated when Gary learns something new, but it is very inexpensive.

The Ninja is low production and was designed after the Hawk and can be easily updated when Mike learns something new.

I think it is not a very fair comparison.

Low production has it's performance advantages, but it costs more.

 

[Guest_Norm Doerr]

The bottom line here is that the Hawk is a high production kit designed by Gary and built by Dumas. It can not easily be updated when Gary learns something new, but it is very inexpensive.
The Ninja is low production and was designed after the Hawk and can be easily updated when Mike learns something new.

I think it is not a very fair comparison.

Low production has it's performance advantages, but it costs more.

Yup; This is true. The Hawk is for modelers who LIKE TO BUILD without making templates and cutting a lot of wood. I have not seen any two Hawks that were identical; thus builders can incorporate thier own ideas, (weather they are correct or not). Usually when someone mentions the name Dumas there is going to be a lot of work involved.

 

[TomMoorehouse]

hey "Hawk Expert" did you ever sell that .21 roadrunner of yours? are you going to be running a ninja against me next year?

 

[Lay26]

hey grimmracer when are you going to have more nijas availible?

 

[user 115]

I sure did, Tom.. Your rockin' firefighter was too much for me to handle.

Just trying to point out that there are different versions of the hawk.. Ron's and Gary's have major differences. If you are trying to compare a Ninja to a Hawk, then you need to look at the correct hawk.

Nothing major. Not attacking anyone. Just liked using nick names like everyone else. Didn't get a chance to post until quite a few posts had been posted..

Hope that clears up Hawk Expert..

Charley

 

[user 115]

Sorry.. Forgot to answer your other question..

No, I won't be running a ninja.. Mike quit making them late last year so I had to go to Plan B..

Are you going to race this year, Tom? I won my only heat of the year in 20 hydro with you in my heat!!

The more the merrier!!

Charley