N-1 MONO

[Darin Jordan]

Well, I'm personally against it, at least for our area...

We have so many N1 Mono entries now that our club passed an allowance to increase the number of boats per heat from 6 to whatever the maximum number allowed is... (they said 9, but I read in the rules that only 8 are allowed... Maybe that was specific to the gas boats???)

Anyhow, I really don't see a need to change the rules for a class that is thriving... Seems there are plenty of classes that would allow one to go faster if that's the desire... N2 Mono and Hydro out here, I'm told, don't really even get run... They just run N2 open instead... Though, there are some of us putting together N2 Hydros (sport scale) to see if we can garnish some interest in a 6-cell hydro class...

Basically, my position is that it's not broken, at least not here, so I wouldn't mess with it...

Just one opinion amongst many, I'm sure...

Looking forward to getting going! April is almost here...

 

[T.S.Davis]

Your thinking right. That's why we vote and don't just let a couple of maniacs make a rule change. LOL It had to get approved by a district before it could get proposed to NAMBA so there was obviously some support for the idea. Maybe it's not enough. We'll see.

Funny, N1 is realtively small here in the midwest and N2 is huge. Go figure. Check out the entries for the NATS. http://www.mmeu.com/nationals/fpdb/results.asp

We barely have a full flight of N1 hydro but N2 hydro has 22 entries so far. N1 mono is still pretty strong but there are 3 (I think it's 3) venues that traditionally run 19turn motors in N1.

Guys might sacrifice a live animal to run more offshore in these parts. That's a little out of the ordinary I'm thinkin. LOL

I think N2 Sport Scale is a cool class. We've recieved a lot of interest in that too. They look great, they're fast and they're not off the chart expense wise.

 

[Patrick M]

Anyhow, I really don't see a need to change the rules for a class that is thriving... 

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Unfortunately, the Northwest is one of the few places where the N1 class is thriving. Here in Az, Crackerbox is one of our biggest classes, but in most other areas of the country the N1 classes and CB are virtually dead. The reasoning behind the proposed rule change, is to hopefully build more interest by making the classes marginally faster. If the rule passes, it will be interesting to see if the interest survives past the initial "let's try it out" phase.

 

[Dan Proulx]

I can support Pat & Terry's statement.

N1 in most every place I've seen it - certainly throughout the midwest is practically dead.

The 19t option is one that I fully support and I belong to one of the clubs that has adopted it for local N1 racing. If it stays a 27t class then it's likely that many including myself won't enter it at the Nats or anywhere else for that matter.

That being said it's nice to have the upcoming vote to at least give N1 a chance to thrive - the Pacific Northwest notwithstanding.

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

It looks like N-1 Mono is thriving only in the Pac NW.

But, don't dispair Pac NW dudes.

If the rule is changed to 19T, your local clubs can always stipulate 27T for your locals races (where most of your racing takes place).

There has also been some concerns brought up that a switch to 19T will be bad for Crackerbox. With the hulls not being the picture of stability to begin with, they may not be able to handle more power.

KW

 

[Darin Jordan]

Well, as Dick pointed out to me in an e-mail, one positive from a change to 19T motors may be that there would be enough power to run an N1 Sport-Scale Hydro... That might be fun...

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

Yes.

And, a change to 19T might put some hope into reviving N1 Hydro. As it is now, N1 Hydro is one of those classes that are right on the edge of non-existance.

KW

 

[crowebar]

Yes.
And, a change to 19T might put some hope into reviving N1 Hydro.  As it is now, N1 Hydro is one of those classes that are right on the edge of non-existance.

KW

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You bet Kevin. For a minute I even thought about building a N1 Hydro if the 19 turns went into effect, but I need another boat like a hole in the head!!!!

The northwest does well with N1's because they promote the class aggressively to new racers, the way it should be. If we had been running 19 turns all along the class would be just as it is up here right now with the 27's, successful. No more no less.

To me N1 is an entry level spec class. It doesn't matter if the boats are going 20 with a 27 turn or 23 with a 19 turn as long as there is parity. Sure there is logic in making the boats a little faster but anyone hanging their hat on this fact to save the class for them is in for a disappointment. Fact is, I've run 19 turns and I didn't see that big of an improvement. I don't run N1's anymore and won't even if they go to 19. I don't belong in it. The same has been argued about LSH, but now your talking about performance that is more inline with a O sport Hydro and not a Newbie class, just a good cheap Sport Hydro class.

So, we have one set of classes (n1) that specifically targets Newcomers. Will 19 turns make it better for them? If so vote yes, if not vote no. And like Kevin said, any club can still run whatever they want. If it passes we might stay with 27's for a while, if it goes down the Midwest can still run 19's. Everyone happy?

Dick

 

[T.S.Davis]

Right on Dick. The N1 classes should be entry level.

Interesting the way LSH has evolved. It's the only class that the rules include verbage encouraging experienced racers to not participate. The classes is pretty much run by everyone from newbies to guys that I think of as legends.

N1 classes seem like obvious starter classes but no indication to that effect within the rule book. Fascinating captain. Just an observation.

 

[crowebar]

Right on Dick.  The N1 classes should be entry level. 
Interesting the way LSH has evolved.  It's the only class that the rules include verbage encouraging experienced racers to not participate.  The classes is pretty much run by everyone from newbies to guys that I think of as legends.

N1 classes seem like obvious starter classes but no indication to that effect within the rule book.  Fascinating captain.  Just an observation.

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Should be the other way around huh Terry! LSH is one of the greatest classes there is. An affordable performance class. We need more of these!

Dick

 

[T.S.Davis]

No doubt.

There are a lot of dudes having a blast with LSO. You'll see that on the next ballot too if I'm not mistaken. That's gonna be gigantic too. Evenly matched boats with all kinds of twisty turny course to run. You legends stay home though. LOL

 

[crowebar]

No doubt.
There are a lot of dudes having a blast with LSO.  You'll see that on the next ballot too if I'm not mistaken.  That's gonna be gigantic too.  Evenly matched boats with all kinds of twisty turny course to run.  You legends stay home though. LOL

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Legends stay home? We don't and never have run offshore classes out here, well except for the 2002 nats. Who would promote it in our neck of the woods if not us "legends"?

If there is a litmus test that some have offered in regards to LSH then you Offshore veterans of the midwest will probably have to stay away from LSO and let us Offshore novices have it? Silly stuff isn't it?

Can't wait to race against you and anyone else in LSH and LSO. The Newbies can have N1 in whatever form that the old veterans decide they should run it in (27 or 19 turn) It this model boating hypocracy?

You know I'm just having fun with all this!

Dick

 

[Patrick M]

Does anyone else think it's ironic that what was supposed to be a beginners class has now become the class which requires the most motor knowledge and effort to go fast? The BL's have evolved to the point where virtually no maintenance and tuning are required, just bolt 'em in and go!.... but it requires a great deal of tuning ability to go fast with a 27 or 19 turn brushed spec motor. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

 

[SteveReesor]

We have had considerable debate on this issue on our club forum (Metro Marine Modellers) over the past few years. This winter as well we have discussed the N1 proposed rule change.

I have run 05 motors for 15 years now and have found the most difficult class of boats to achieve any kind of performance out of are N1's. Achieving success with "stock" motors is not IMO a newbie class. The hull, prop and set-up are key to getting them to run respectable. In fact they should receive your highest voltage cells as well to help em out. All of these things are definitely not newbie. Even a handout format will not prevent a "racer" from going back to the pits and polishing the bushings with Autosol or another similar polishing compound. to get that extra.

The question becomes differentiating between inexpensive class and "entry" level class. N1 classes with whatever power is decided upon (27T vs 19T) can be inexpensive when compared to a low end BL system, but under the current rules is really not an entry level class. Most newbies are attracted to faster classes to begin with so we steer them to what we call P-Spec (700 powered mono's) running on an offshore course. More stick time.

Dick's comments and others on our board have voiced the identical sentiment that N1 and LSH and P-Spec should not be run by the most experienced racers in the club to give the other members including newbies something to look forward to other than getting lapped every race day. On the other hand it has also been said that the experienced racers can help others by "showing" them by running the class what can be done. The difference being walking the pits and helping with set-ups and prop recommendations, etc . You can tell em, but showing them that it is possible to run much faster is a valueable learning tool. Of course if an experienced racer trouncies everyone week inand week out, doesn't share, and feels good about himself, then shame on him. I always encourage club members to check my boats out in the pits, as much as they want to.

A few years back at the Canadian Nats in Toronto, in one heat of N1 Mono, Doug Twaits Jr. shadowed another boater who was quite nervous on the stand by staying about 10-15' off his transom in lane three, while talking to him on the stand (I know your not supposed to talk to other drivers on the stand during a race...but we are pretty laid back up here) about holding his line and his lane, how good of a job he (the other driver) was doing and they finished this way as well. The other boater was thrilled (not at beating Douggie as he knew Doug could have pushed him into a mistake) in that he run a clean heat, and received such attention from a "legend".

Needless to say Doug did not provide that same courtesy to me when I ran him

My point (if I have one) is that experienced racers can run these classes with newbies and something good can come out of it. If I don't run my N1 boat at our club races every once in while, I am asked to bring it out for no other reason that everyone else would like to see how they stack up...to see if their latest change has made a discernable improvement. The same thing applies to LSH.

Driving skill can also be improved by intermixing the best a club has to offer with newbies from time to time. As any boater progresses they will always want to know what they can do to improve. Many of them cannot afford to go out and buy another boat to run withthe big dogs so to speak. In these cases, what is the harm in running with them with the above objectives in mind.

When newbies or relatively inexperienced racers (which we all were) venture to a regional race or to a National race, what should their expectation be? My first race I travelled to was Timberlake Ampeaters in Chicago (many years ago) and I was fortunate enough to race against Ed Hughey...what a thrill! Sure he handed my butt to me, but boy did I learn a lot. I knew going there that my chances may be pretty slim, but that wasn't my reason for going.

Any class at a race including N1 or spec'd classes are "races". The debate will rage on I am sure about whether the legends (of which I am not) should be running them or not will continue. We (Neil and I) will at regional races and at Nats. Should there be a further clarification of the class to restrict "sponsored" racers or event winners or something to this effect, we will gladly comply.

...I still like running them though cuz they are just plain fun

Steve

 

[crowebar]

Steve,

You nailed it! The problem is the gentlemans agreement that should dictate the entry level classes. Every year I plan on passing on these classes until I see the list of who's who and can't wait to race against them.

Shoot, it would have been a 2 boat class at nats this year if experianced racers stayed away from LSH. It's a catch 22. How do we promote the class if experianced racers aren't involved? Do the newcommers really want us out? Ron Greene beat me at nats in LSH this year taking second to my third. I wonder if he would have rather I would have stayed out of the competition? I'm sure you could make the arguement that he would have been more happy if he had taken first over Chris Costanza (Team Rum Runner/2004 Nats highpoint champ) but I really doubt it. Chris had every right to be there and I'll bet Ron couldn't have scripted a better senario then to be sandwiched between Chris and I at the podium.

I'll tell you what, I'll follow your lead Steve. You are a very level headed guy and have all of my respect. We can call it the Steve rule! If you are in I'm in. If you are out I'm out. Just don't be pulling out of Q Hydro! I can't wait to resume that battle!!!!

Have a good weekend!

Dick

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Guys,

Well I think the biggest reason for the 19T would be bearings in the motor, much easier on everything. Now I did "try" running a C-Box with a 19T in a N1 mono class, never finished a heat but it was every bit as fast as the other monos on the water. I was running a 427 prop by the way.

Paul.

 

[Darin Jordan]

Curious, has anyone run a 19T in a N1 boat to see what the relative increases in speed are??? If it's only 1-3mph more, then WHAT is the point when everyone is already set up for 27T??? The only ones gaining anything would be Trinity or Orion...

 

[AlanN]

There would be a noticable difference in speed with a 19T on a Cbox.

That is one class that should remain 27T IMO. They are hard enough to keep up right with the current motor. Of course a smaller prop might tame the 19T enough to be doable.

OOPs misread the previous post.

Yes there would be a few mph difference in speed.

I have always enjoyed running the 27T but some out there think that the lower turn can would be more exciting. I have had some of my best racing in the N-1 class do to the setup/driving needed to stay up front. You can have a quick N-1 with a 27T but it takes some experience and dumb luck!

 

[Darin Jordan]

Here is some technical info on the 19T vs 27T motors which says a lot to the perceived performance differences between these motors...

The 19's are locked at 24 degrees just like a stock 27 turn. Same end bell, with bushing and timing index. So the most significant physical change is 8 less turns of wire, but it is wound on a heavier full stack armature, which limits rpm and increase the torque.
So, your right about speed, maybe a mile or 2 faster, not 10 mph !

The new generation rebuildable Trinity stock motors are really good. The Epic (38,00 to 39,000) rpm and the Monster Stock turn (35 to 36,000 rpm)

with our Aggressive Technologies 20% silver brushes they can really churn up the water compared to the old non-rebuildable motors. The new stock motors are as good as it gets for a bushing motor. They are about as close as to a mod. as you can get and way better than some mods. I am thinking of the 23, 21, 19,

17 turn mods used in trucks.

I would say that it doesn't make sense to change.  There is no big advantage in speed or maintenance. I really like the new generation stock motors

and do not endorse this new proposal.

[SIZE=14pt]Ted A. Schultz[/SIZE]

Aggressive RC Tech

Just some food for thought... Again, I see this as having very little in the way of a cost effectiveness benefit... It's simply going to cost people money to switch motors, with very little performance benefit...

Just my opinion, of course...

 

[crowebar]

Darin, Thanks for forwarding Ted's analysis.

I'm still a little confused though. I'll be the first guy to admit that while I have run the Chameleon, I currently don't own one and really don't know that much about them.

What I do know - There was a performance advantage, but only a few MPH at best. Perhaps I wasn't propped correctly or had a bad motor but form my years of experience I doubt it was more then 3 MPH and that is being generous.

What I don't know?

I was under the impression that the timing was lower with the 19 turn then the 27?

I thought the 19's also had Bushings?

How do they really compare to the latest generation 27's?

Do they cost the same and how easy are they to get these days. When I went looking for them 2 years ago nobody had them in the LHS's (local hobby shops).

Is this a good enough change for me to contact all of the new members and racers in our club and tell them that they all have to buy new motors now if we want to adhere to the new rule (if it passes). Or is this a rule so that the old veterans can go a little faster with an entry level class that they probably don't belong in other then to promote the class?

Again, I don't race this class and will gladly buy a 19 turn for my son if that is the direction it goes. Just trying to look at the bigger picture.

Just tell me this is the right thing to do for the newcomer and I'm in!

Dick