IMPBA rules question

[T.S.Davis]

How the heck do we enforce it?

If I joined today and clicked on "IMPBA rule book" I don't get the rules. Well, I get some of them. Most of them even. So new guys that are just starting up can't possibly know what is legal. I know it says that:

*note: an updated version of the rulebook will be uploaded shortly...

But come on guys, what are we doing? The rules for electric are posted in the December of 2008 Roostertail. If a newb wants to know the rules he can sift through old issues of the Roostertail. Provided of course that someone tells him he needs to.

2008? Last time I checked it's 2010. There's really no excuse for that much procrastination.

So....is it enforceable? How do you hold a racer to standard that you don't distribute to your new members?

I just finished 6 new builds for 2010. Now that it's done I've had someone point out that one of them might not be legal in IMPBA. Sighting an obscure rule that differse from NAMBA and that's NOT in the book. WTF?

Guess I could just not run IMPBA. Problem solved.

....sorry to vent guys but I'm annoyed.

 

[Grimracer]

Terry,

As far as I know or have known it to be the (in past years) last update in the book are the "enforceable rules" I suspect I will get some opinions on that one but you get the deal.

Having said this it might also be, now that IMPBA has stepped up to the PC age it just might be that posted rules are the enforceable rules.. Truth is if you are reading it and its not on the floor but passes under vote.. its likely enforceable.

What might be the issued my friend!

I see you have a cab forward whip in the pic.. is this the boat in question?

Also.. maybe it would be (or would have been best) to bring this issue to the attention of the hydro Division Director.. I know Ron is willing to help all he can.

Grim

 

[Dick Loeb]

If you go to the World tunnel boat post the P Spec rules are posted, we are trying to work with FE guys in Dist 12 to let them run with some Nitro classes. Thanks Dick

 

[Grimracer]

Terry,

Saw the pics on OSE..aha.. notched transom.. as far as I have known this has never been legal in an IMPBA sport hydro. (not as long as I have been playing boats).. it is written…

Is that the issue. (I might be wrong but its what I see at this point). and if so how does that become IMPBAs fault.. Don’t get mad.. just asking…

Ya going to bring it to the show.. ?

In the words of Tdog.. lets get ready to tumble!!!!!!!!!

Grim

 

[Mike Luszcz]

TS Davis

As a full on FE boat guy, I will say this. First, you need to give the IMPBA time. They are doing their very best to try and get FE setup in their rule book. You need to remember, NAMBA has a few years head start on IMPBA when it comes to FE. It takes people that run FE to talk to the guys about what classes the main stream are utilizing. You need to do something positive to get this rule problem addressed. Unfortunately, you are on intlwaters.com right now, not IMPBA.com, so you are yelling at people that don't exactly manage the rules. Venting is great, but do it where it might matter. Get on IMPBA.com, find your district decision makers and address these problems with them. I just joined, and I am quickly meeting people that WANT more FE boats in the IMPBA organization. They are very very open to my suggestions, and in District 12 they have agreed to run their similar nitro hulls with some of my FE boats. Heck the Outboard Director of IMPBA had me write a full on FE article in rooster tails to give some people some ideas and knowledge on the subject. If that is not having your arms wide open to try and make this work, then I don't know what is. Make a difference, get involved with the decision makers, be nice about it, and we will get the FE classes we want! I hope to hear you help this cause in the future! Mike

 

[Flyguy55]

Hi Terry

I understand your frustration and sympathize . It is bad when you want to build a boat and there are no enforceable rules. What do you build it to ?

It was about 4 yrs ago when I tried to find out what NAMBA's FE tunnel hull rules were . I started with you ,you were then the National FE Chairmen .I wrote my Dist 7 Director , finally wrote to Al Waters . All I got was a runaround . As I remember you told me FE tunnel was dying and wasn't going any where. What was the biggest class at the 09 FE Nats . You were involved , any tunnels there ?

Al Waters suggested I write a proposed FE Tunnel hull rules . I did and sent it to you , All Waters , the Nitro OB chairman, and my Dist Director.

No one even commented , suggested changes , except the Nitro chairman . Al asked a few questions and we bounced a few e mails back and forth. He promised to work on it . Nothing happened I know of .

Someone stopped the rule proposal from being voted on at the Dist 7 meeting as the rules require. You quit answering my e mails.

I have talked to Dave Newland , he says he and the BOD will come up with a proposal . FE BOD , hmmm that's a good idea too .

My advice , just be patient Terry , sometimes these things just take time .

 

[T.S.Davis]

Mike, it's the transom. What the heck was that based on? Leave your creativity at the door? Yet, another difference between NAMBA and IMPBA. I still never found it in writing. Just on the diagram.

The existing IMPBA FE rules (the ones that are in the book) don't refer you back to the "sport hydro" section of the book so technically that snappy little diagram shouldn't apply to FE. Also, the sport chair has no jurisdiction over FE sport. Well, he shouldn't at least. Should in one hand and crap in the other......we know which one fills up first. haha That's true in the NAMBA book too. The sport chair has no jurisdiction over FE sport. Again, should, could, as it reads.

I could change it and it would be even more aerodynamic than it already is. They went to all that trouble to disallow a back cut but don't define what a transom is. I'll make the whole trailing edge a knife edge if comes down to that. I suppose I'm worrying about nothing. There's one IMPBA FE event I could hit in Canada but other than that there's nothing within 18 hours of me.

Were it not for the new 4s spec setups, tunnel boats would have vanished from FE. I remember being asked about the tunnel rules. That was about the same time I was being accused of all kinds of unsavory behavior. I was pretty cooked. Fortunately, the FE guys seem to have grown up since then.

I didn't mean to yell btw. No caps ner noth'n.

 

[SayMikey]

Mike, it's the transom. What the heck was that based on? Leave your creativity at the door? Yet, another difference between NAMBA and IMPBA. I still never found it in writing. Just on the diagram.

The existing IMPBA FE rules (the ones that are in the book) don't refer you back to the "sport hydro" section of the book so technically that snappy little diagram shouldn't apply to FE. Also, the sport chair has no jurisdiction over FE sport. Well, he shouldn't at least. Should in one hand and crap in the other......we know which one fills up first. haha That's true in the NAMBA book too. The sport chair has no jurisdiction over FE sport. Again, should, could, as it reads.

I could change it and it would be even more aerodynamic than it already is. They went to all that trouble to disallow a back cut but don't define what a transom is. I'll make the whole trailing edge a knife edge if comes down to that. I suppose I'm worrying about nothing. There's one IMPBA FE event I could hit in Canada but other than that there's nothing within 18 hours of me.

Were it not for the new 4s spec setups, tunnel boats would have vanished from FE. I remember being asked about the tunnel rules. That was about the same time I was being accused of all kinds of unsavory behavior. I was pretty cooked. Fortunately, the FE guys seem to have grown up since then.

I didn't mean to yell btw. No caps ner noth'n.

Nice looking boat! To my knowledge IMPBA has never allowed transom cut outs in sport hydros...........

 

[Don Ferrette]

Also, the sport chair has no jurisdiction over FE sport. Well, he shouldn't at least.

While you might not agree with it that is how it is, has been and will continue to be. The mono director, hydro director, scale director and o/b director are in place for this reason. Doesn't matter what powers a boat when it comes to questions of design of a given hull. Your boat does look rather cool regardless and from your last post you could remove the notched area. Sounds like the way to go. B)

 

[Grimracer]

Mike, it's the transom. What the heck was that based on? Leave your creativity at the door? Yet, another difference between NAMBA and IMPBA. I still never found it in writing. Just on the diagram.

The existing IMPBA FE rules (the ones that are in the book) don't refer you back to the "sport hydro" section of the book so technically that snappy little diagram shouldn't apply to FE. Also, the sport chair has no jurisdiction over FE sport. Well, he shouldn't at least. Should in one hand and crap in the other......we know which one fills up first. haha That's true in the NAMBA book too. The sport chair has no jurisdiction over FE sport. Again, should, could, as it reads.

I could change it and it would be even more aerodynamic than it already is. They went to all that trouble to disallow a back cut but don't define what a transom is. I'll make the whole trailing edge a knife edge if comes down to that. I suppose I'm worrying about nothing. There's one IMPBA FE event I could hit in Canada but other than that there's nothing within 18 hours of me.

Were it not for the new 4s spec setups, tunnel boats would have vanished from FE. I remember being asked about the tunnel rules. That was about the same time I was being accused of all kinds of unsavory behavior. I was pretty cooked. Fortunately, the FE guys seem to have grown up since then.

I didn't mean to yell btw. No caps ner noth'n.

hea Terry dude…

I understand where you are coming from but I have Never felt that creativity was the spoken or un-spoken word with sport hydros.. quite honesty I have always felt the opposite. More of a regimented design class..

Part of the problem to be has always been the lack of written “Intent” .. that is almost always hearsay and can cause confusion.

The sport chair as you put it is here to help those that don’t understand.. he or she is there for you .. help guide if they can.. help to keep people with in the rules.… you know this…

In anycase.. your boat looks great and im sure it will be a top contenter in each of its heats.

ROCK and ROLL

Grim

 

[T.S.Davis]

The mono director, hydro director, scale director and o/b director are in place for this reason. Doesn't matter what powers a boat when it comes to questions of design of a given hull.

What does the FE chairman do? That explains a lot. The battery chair I guess.

There isn't any portion of the rule book that says to look at the Sport 20 or 40 sections for guidance on an electric hull. Maybe it's in there and I'm ignorant. I confess, I haven't studied the IMPBA book as much as I have the NAMBA book. I'm not sure studying the book would have helped when it hasn't been updated since 2005. How you apply sections of a rule book without stating that those sections apply is beyond me.

Your right Don. I don't have to like it or agree with it. Fortunately I have an option. I'll pursue that.

 

[Reesor@work]

Terry,

You off your meds again... :lol:

Cut the freekin notches off and let's race!

 

[Grimracer]

Thinking.. maybe what’s different about IMPBA and NAMBA is that in the IMPBA the FE Director does not have the final say in anything about FE.. he or she also does not have the final say in anything hull related.. he or she does not have the final say in any particular segment. Heck, same goes for the gas dude, the outboard dude.. the rest of the BOD.

Rather they work with the body like the rest of the directors to all grab old of the transmitter and steer the boat.

When you open page on of the rule book you are opening the book for all IMPBA boating.. Page one is just as important as the last page.

TRUE!.. the impba started out many many years ago and has had nitro in its veins for many years.. BUT!.. I have NEVER known lately (lets call in modern times) the IMPBA not trying to get all involved in playing toy boats.

Bring on the Gas… aha..boats.. that did not come out right

Bring on the Fuel boats!

Bring on the FE boats!

The IMPBA IS listing.

Grim

 

[Grimracer]

O yea.. listen to Steve........



Grim

 

[T.S.Davis]

Terry,

You off your meds again... :lol:

Cut the freekin notches off and let's race!

Sorry Steve. There's a lot of engineering that went into this thing. Now I'm going to chop off the rear end of the boat? Being annoyed I may change it to something even more diabolical. This was the second easier option I came up with.

If you go to the electric section and read.....it's fine the way it is. It just pisses me off that I can't pick up the book and know what to build. The book is broken. I should be used to it by now but I'm not. You know what I do for a living. Specifications and codes/rules are a daily read. The NAMBA book has had the same issues over the years. Remember back in the day when everyone wanted to apply the offshore rules to FE offshore? There was nothing on paper that said to do that.

The sport section (section 20) of the NAMBA book has zero influence over FE sport. There's no connection between them. There shoudn't be any connection between them in IMPBA either. On paper, I can't find one.

Neither book is perfect. I'll survive but I still will piss and moan about it.

Okay smart guys, define a transom for me. Not what you think it is. What the book says it is.

 

[P THOMAS]

Looks like your boat is ok to me. Someone must be reading between the lines? No mention of transom cut outs here.

It is not in the NITRO sport section It is FE section.

Dont get me started on rule book updates there are updates needed that probally are 10 years overdue. Seems no one can get the secretary moving on those updates.

PHIL T

Fast Electric

Sport Hydro

General

All boats to resemble Unlimited Hydroplanes from the past or present. Fictitious teams may be

created within the Spirit of the past and present Unlimited Hydroplanes. The word "resemble"

shall be loosely interpreted and as long as the boat is configured in the spirit of a real 3-point,

full-bodied hydro, it shall be deemed legal.

Motor/Cells

A. All boats must be inboard motor powered with an effort made to conceal the motor

with fake engine or cowling as per prototype boats.

Hull Configurations

A Hull must conform to the three-point hydroplane configuration and resemble a real

limited or unlimited hydroplane from the past or present. Canard hulls are permitted

as long as it is modeled after a prototype. Outriggers, modified outriggers or tunnels

are not allowed.

B All boats must have some sort of markings affixed (such as sponsor names, logos,

racing numbers) even if these names are fictitious. The hull appearance shall be in

the spirit of resembling a real racing hydroplane.

C The boat must have a driver figure and/or a simulated enclosed cockpit. A

blacked-out canopy is allowed.

D Both round-nose and pickle-fork hull styles are allowed.

E Air traps/dams are optional.

Driveline

Struts, props and rudders may protrude beyond the transom.

 

[Grimracer]

hey Phil,

Where is the part about the width of an airtrap?

Grim

 

[Don Ferrette]

"It was about 4 yrs ago when I tried to find out what NAMBA's FE tunnel hull rules were . I started with you ,you were then the National FE Chairmen .I wrote my Dist 7 Director , finally wrote to Al Waters . All I got was a runaround . As I remember you told me FE tunnel was dying and wasn't going any where. What was the biggest class at the 09 FE Nats . You were involved , any tunnels there ?

Al Waters suggested I write a proposed FE Tunnel hull rules . I did and sent it to you , All Waters , the Nitro OB chairman, and my Dist Director.

No one even commented , suggested changes , except the Nitro chairman"

Terry as per your last post- "but I still will piss and moan about it" and by the above quote from flyguy55 it appears you are opting to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution?? If that's not the case please spell it out, maybe I'm missing something as it appears otherwise to me. You say "You know what I do for a living. Specifications and codes/rules are a daily read." Well then if that's the case then wouldn't you ask questions about areas that are not clear before you started building? Also since you say you deal with codes/rules for a living it would seem you especially would be in an advantageous position to help clarify the very things you are complaining about. But there again that would mean taking the steps to getting involved with being part of the solution. And as far as you implying the mono/hydro/scale/ob tech directors should have no say in FE stuff, that is so far off base it's not even funny. The type of powerplant has no determination whether it's a hydro, mono or whatever hull. For example a rigger with a gas, nitro or electric motor is still a hydro right? You complain about the new IMPBA website that just recently got launched and clearly says right at the top of the rulebook page - *note: an updated version of the rulebook will be uploaded shortly The updating and correcting of the rulebook is in process but is a major undertaking, something else those who chose to get involved with helping already know. You said "The NAMBA book has had the same issues over the years" so you have been though this once already, in your words of your first post- WTF?? I mean really now, we know the book needs fixing, come on and try to be a positive part of making it right instead of posting up "pissing and moaning" about how it needs to be fixed.

Sad how it seems that so many choose to post up bitching about the rules only do just that as opposed to trying to offer help in making things better.....................

 

[T.S.Davis]

Sorry Don, your implication that I simply complain and don't get involved is offensive. I've invested enough time in rule writing and such with NAMBA. More time than most. You guys are on your own. It will be tougher for IMPBA since the FE chair doesn't run FE. How in touch with FE can someone be that doesn't run it? That would be like me telling you what's best for scale. (I promise not to BTW) I can't fix that. We tried that route before.

If you pull up the December, 2008 Roostertail and flip to page 23 you'll find FE's newest version of Sport hydro. Those are supposed to be the next rule set when it gets in the book. Number 12 says there can be no "transom cutouts, cut ups, or bottom extensions". Still no definition of a transom. Again, no reference back to the "nitro specialized classes" to review the diagram. What would inspire a guy to read the "nitro specialized classes" portion of the book to learn about FE I can't say. I know I wont be doing that. If I had read (actually read) the FE section and found something that told me to refer to the "nitro specialized classes" section for hull requirements then I surely would have done so. It's simply not there. That's the beauty of codes and specs. If it's not in there it didn't happen. Indeed, I would ask questions about areas that are unclear. There is/was no unclear area of the book. Where it gets muddy is when you consider the "new" set of rules ro if you try to apply the "nitro" set. The way the book is currently written, you can NOT make the leap from FE to nitro sport or vice verse. The text directing me to do so simply is not there.

Also if any are interested, look at number 8 on that same page of the Tail. There's the 65% rule. That's a departure from the "nitro specialized class" sporty diagram. The sport chair has his hands full flipping from section to section to find sport rules. Wait, flipping from section to section to Roostertail.

By pointing these things out am I not in effect getting involved? Exactly what does it mean to "get involved" in fixing IMPBA? All the FE proposals come from the FE chair. Do I need to print the books myself?

IF I race IMPBA I'll deal with the trans issue as necessary.

My original question still hasn't really been addressed. Maybe I need to word it differently. Which rules apply, the ones in the book or the ones in the Roostertail from December of 2008? The 2008 rules are likely the "correct" ones as were voted on but how do we enforce them if we don't distribute them to membership?

 

[P THOMAS]

hey Phil,

Where is the part about the width of an airtrap?

Grim

What Is this a test. HA

8. See Sport Hull pictorial for clarification.

Nitro sport 40 and sport20 H-7 H-8

Pictures on H-9 for the air trap 1/8th inch rule. And other NO NOs