Changes for the 2009 World Tunnel Champs race format.

[topfuel443]

Guys, the CMB club has been getting a lot of opinions from the racers about how to format this upcoming 2009 Tunnel race. The club voted today to allow the racers to make the decision, since you guys are the ones who make this race what it is. Your input is needed.

We are going to keep the options simple on the voting poll, here they are:

1) Keep the normal points heat racing style for the race, for ALL classes, and run any run-offs as needed for tie-breakers. This would entail 4 rounds of heat racing (remember, this is a 2.5 day race now, so it should be much more "doable"), plus whatever time it takes to do run-offs for trophy positions.

2) Use a similar R/C car style format that was used in 2008. Basically, depending on the number of entries, many classes will run 4 rounds as "qualifiers" using heat racing points, and then we will have a "B" and "A" main event made up of the top qualifiers from the 4 rounds of heats. The "B" main would consist of the 11th through 6th place heat points qualifiers, and the 1st place winner of the B main would be bumped up into the A main with the 1st through 5th heat points qualifiers. Winner take all in the A main.

A few points:

The main reason we tried the A/B main format last year was a couple things. We had a VERY large number of entries in many classes. FAR more than just about any other boat race where the normal heat racing points work well. We hoped this would allow the guys who truly deserved a shot at the title to have a better chance of getting to the top. Basically, it allowed you to make a slight mistake, but still make it to the "big show". Also, we hoped it would get rid of the potentially HUGE amount of run-offs typically seen when you have a large number of entries. We tried to create a way of breaking ties for qualifying for the mains, i.e. using the amount of bouy cuts, wins vs. 2nds etc to determine the higher position without doing any run-offs. This backfired some in the 2008 mains, and is part of the reason we are re-addressing it now. If we use the A/B format in 2009, we will have to have a better plan in place for determining qualifying position and winners should there be any ties. We know this.

Keep in mind, the 20 mod tunnel class had ~70ish boats in it, and the sport 20 class had ~67ish boats. This is a LOT of boats. The other classes had high 30's and 40's for amount of entries, which is still a huge number.

The other option, most of the people requesting we go back to the old style say if its not broke dont fix it. This makes sense as well, but we still have the problem of having a potentialy HUGE amount of run-offs. We will have more time since we went to 2.5 days, but will it be enough? You also have to basically run an absolute perfect race to have a chance in getting to trophy land. Because there are so many people in each class, it could be a tie breaker nightmare.

Let's here your opinions. THIS POLL WILL DETERMINE WHAT FORMAT WE GO WITH. Pleas only vote if you will be attending. Feel free to discuss your thoughts IN THIS THREAD. I would rather not get 20 PM's of people telling me what they think, discuss it here.

Thanks, James

 

[topfuel443]

I mentioned it before, but if your buddies dont get on here often, now is the time to tell them to get on here and vote. I can only think of one racer that normally comes to the race, but who does not have a computer, (Mike Crawford), hopefully someone can get his opinion and post it up.

~James

 

[Grimracer]

James,

I voted for the "if it aint broke dont fix it" system.

Here is why..

We RC boat racers have a very unique way to score a race. Your first round is as important as your last.. I like this..

Awards the person bragging rights if they are consistent in 4 rounds. Not lucky in one… Sure you have to battle to the main.. OK.. so what… you might be TQ and not have a chance because you got drilled by the BQ.. now what.. your done.. NO CHANCE.. we have no corner marshals.. W

Lets face it IFMAR and some ROAR events now have 3 A mains to determine the winner.. why is this you ask.. what is this you ask.. just points “position” racing the top guys. Same thing we do just with all our racers in all our heats.. Why do they do this.. Yep to remove the luck it takes to win with one good A main showing. Even there qualifying is stager starts to avoid the dreaded first corner pile up.

What is points racing.. yep.. Removing the luck it takes to win with one good A main showing.

Bottom line.. This is RC boat racing and not RC car racing. We have a special scoring system that works for our hobby. Its easy to count , its easy to keep track of, its less work/time (that’s a big one to the CD of the event) to do the math. No worry about how to break a tie, no worry about keeping track of qualifying positions..

You crash first in the heat its 25pts.. Not second place… (that did happen last year)

I vote lets go boat racing and not car racing..

Thanks for letting me share

Grimracer

 

[Bill Britton]

If it ain't broke... B)

 

[jydracing]

I Feel the same as you Mike. I have been racing boats for 20 years now and the system has been working If It ain't Broke don't fix it. I would perfer to see a runoff of 6 boats that tied for first place for a first place than see a boat thet did not run but 2 quifying heats and win the b main move up to the a main and take first place. The boat racing has always been about skill, Being consent, Knowing the hull and setup. not 80 percent luck. The 4 heat racing format has been ran for over 25 years that i know of. ties are going to happen. I would rather be in a runoff with 2,3,4,5,6 other first place winners than win by luck. Witch has the better bragging rights. I beat 5 of the best in a tie braker for first to take first or I was the luckiest person at the race that weekend.

Look at it this way if you have 5 boats tied for first they all get first place points and the winner of the tie braker gets the award and the bragging rights. and so on for secand and on down the line. the problem I see with the a,b main is that after the first four heats and there are no ties there is clearly a winner for a position than it is taken away by a racer that only ran 1 qulifying race wins the b main than wins the a main that is not right.and this can happen with an a and b main.

As far as will 2.5 days be enough I have been to races that had 270 Boats and started on sat morning and ended at 6.00 pm on sunday with all 4 heats and runoffs ran It is easy to do If the CD wants it to. See ya at the race Jimmy

 

[MarkScott]

we have no corner marshals.. WGrimracer

Oh man... I had planned on taking scuba lessons just for this race :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[HTV Boats]

I have to respect the majority here but I like the A-B main system. If felt everyone who made the finals last year were qualified. My son Jay could make a real case for sour grapes after perfect scores and being TQ in 40 and open tunnel. Blew both mains undertuning for weather and I am sure he would rather have run the top 6 boats even up than taken 2 World Champs on points alone. The Internats have 5 heats and record trials to determine a champion. 1/8 scale has the "Love Plan" so we are not just copying a car format. Vote what you feel is best and we will go with the majority. Ain't democracy great!

Mic

 

[John Knight]

Totally concur with the heat racing format. It was nuts at this year's race trying to get all scores calculated for those qualifying for the mains. And freq conflicts in the mains came up too. A winner take all finish does not in my opinion crown an true champion for the race. With the wind and cool weather we had this year's race it was more survival than speed (that is not all bad either) but those that did well all weekend were not always rewarded. IMHO, the format did not lend itself greatly to the prestige of the race, and that is not to knock anyone that finished in any trophy position. Just think the outcome was not what we thought it might be initially.

Regarding the number of run offs. I do not think it will be bad. The number of trophies awarded will be determined by the number of the entries in each class, done on a graduated scale. Max places awarded will be 6 and the fewest are 3. One run off could determine 2 or 3 places. Running 4 rounds will give even more point separation and should reduce the number of run offs needed.

Jimmy - the weather, which caused many dead boats, dictated the slow pace of the race and reduced it to 3 rounds. Nothing to do with the CD's at all. The very same thing happened at the Charleston Fall Nationals last month, hence that race will also be starting on Friday next year.

 

[topfuel443]

Well, so far it is looking like we will have it much easier this year with normal heat racing....

Ill leave it pinned for about a week just to be sure.

~James

 

[piper_chuck]

I like races where the winner is decided by proving that they are the best over the course of several rounds rather than being one of the best and then winning it all in one round. The four round format with runoffs for ties accomplishes this.

I recall one of the reasons for coming up with the A/B main format is that some racers won't go head to head in the 4 rounds. An alternative that's not on the table, and that adds more time, is to have a finals where the top boats go head to head for more than one round. The person who rises to the top after several rounds of finals is truly the best of the best. Unfortunately, this would add quite a bit more time for all and means extra work for the hosting club.

Four rounds with runoffs if necessary sounds good...

 

[jydracing]

Hi John I know that weather is a big factor in a race and the cd can not control it. But the cd controls the race when wating for a boat that was forgotten to get fuled up. A racer does not know what heat they are in when they have a heat sheat. Or wating becouse the wakes off of the retrieve boat are not gone. Or looking for a driver or pitman that has wondered off. Or wating for a slow boat taking 5 min to run 4 laps after every one else is finishen.

This is what i am talking about and this happens at all races everywhere. Then People get angry when a race needs to be shortened. I think that The Charleston club done a great Job with the tunnel champs and the fall race. It is hard to run a race with 40mph winds and downpores every 30 min.

See Ya Soon Jimmy

 

[HTV Boats]

I like races where the winner is decided by proving that they are the best over the course of several rounds rather than being one of the best and then winning it all in one round. The four round format with runoffs for ties accomplishes this.
I recall one of the reasons for coming up with the A/B main format is that some racers won't go head to head in the 4 rounds. An alternative that's not on the table, and that adds more time, is to have a finals where the top boats go head to head for more than one round. The person who rises to the top after several rounds of finals is truly the best of the best. Unfortunately, this would add quite a bit more time for all and means extra work for the hosting club.

Four rounds with runoffs if necessary sounds good...

If saving time and grouping the top points together are advantageous why not cut the classes in half after 3 heats? Yes the administration would have a little figuring to do but you could cut half a round of heats. After 2 rounds you would know half of the "go homers". Say there are 64 boats in a class. After 3 rounds if your not in the top 32 your done. We had an easy vote to cut to 3 heats last year so this shouldn't hurt anyones feelings. Voting in the middle of a race, to get home earlier when you have nothing to gain. is an easy choice but hurts drivers who are in the hunt. If you have no chance of placing, which boats 32nd-64th would not have, have why even run them? If this is racing and trying to win is the premice you had 3 heats to show something now it's time to surrender,relax and watch the race (or help out). How many times have contenders have been taken out by someone who had no chance of placing? I have qualified to go home more than once so I surely do not see this as a slap in anyones face. I have also scratched many 4th heats when I had no chance to place.

Now you eliminate 4 heats in one class and group better competition. Do this in all classes over 30 boats and you may cut 10-15 heats. As for frequencies you give preference by higher score. Lower score must go to an alternate frequency. Or borrow a DSM. Yes racing is for fun but if you just want to participate there is always t-ball. Keep this an inovative, unique and world class event.

Mic

 

[Grimracer]

Regardless of where I finish.. I like to race all my rounds cuz i just like playing with my toy. I bet more then one guy out there has heard me say.. after a bad launch or whatever.. "Im bummed because I did not get my 6 laps of fun"

take away 1/4th of my fun on 4 rounds.. hum.... not me...

I race em all regardless.

Innovative and unique does not make for a world class event.

On the ball CD (MOST IMPORTANT)

No mucking around between heats

New people

Old friends

Weather (not always in control)

Boat setup chat

Hand shakes

Cool prizes

Neat awards

Good Food

Clean racing

That’s what makes a world class event. Sure you can argue a lot of ways as to what makes a world class event but this is a RC boat race bottom line.. Its also a very prestigious race. Stakes are high, too high for some; all depends on how you approach the event.

Wont it be nice when 75mhs is just flipping gone.. dang this will all get easer.

Grim

Grim

 

[topfuel443]

Wont it be nice when 75mhs is just flipping gone.. dang this will all get easer.

Grim

Couldnt agree with you more on that point! 2.4 is SOOOOO much easier. It will take a while for the old timers to get rid of that stone age stuff, but it will happen.

~James

 

[garrett randall]

My two cents...(yes, I will be there even though I am a mono driver by nature)

Please do not cut out heats...if we're driving or flying 1500 miles (or so), I want to run as many times as possible.

The draw from all parts of the globe, give them a chance to play toy boats.

2.4 is a wonderful thing (leap of faith)...but please be aware of what frequency drivers are registering with.

However, with this new 2.4, it is now impossible to avoid a teammate by registering on the same frequency.

*** Or is it? ***

I have seen examples of pre-registered races, where two drivers register on 79 but both show up on race day with 2.4.

They dont get scheduled in the same heat...but get to use their 2.4 radios...

Please learn from a co-CD's experience.

Our local club will be assessing some sort of penalty (TBD) for this behavior going forward...

Anyway, my final thought is to heat race all the way through...the best of the event will end up on top. I truly believe it is tougher to be consistent for four rounds, 9 boat heats...

Garrett

 

[CapeTown73]

Wont it be nice when 75mhs is just flipping gone.. dang this will all get easer.

Grim

Couldnt agree with you more on that point! 2.4 is SOOOOO much easier. It will take a while for the old timers to get rid of that stone age stuff, but it will happen.

~James

Hi James,

You're absolutely right about 2.4 ! I will probably step on some toes now, but seeing as you talk about stone age stuff, I just cant understand why you guys aren't using transponders for your scoring yet ! Computers originated in the USA, you guys should be showing the rest of the world how to do this. Once you have transponders and a computerised lapcounting and timing system , you litterally don't have to do any results calulation, the system does everything and spits out a printout at the end !

I know there's a cost factor and that the economy worldwide is suffering right now. Kinda why it's virtually impossible for us to participate in this wonderful race in Charleston !

Hope you guys have another fantastic event next year, we'll enjoy the photos afterwards.

Regards,

Wennie.

 

[Grimracer]

If we want to chat Transponders lets do that on another thread.

I have some ideas I have been tossing around with work here regarding GPS and scoring..

Grim

 

[John Knight]

With all of the international racers and many from the US coming from all corners, I could not honestly look anyone in the eye and cut their 4th round out just because they did not make a cut of the top 32 (or whatever the number is). They deserve to run all rounds as they have paid their way there and the entry fees as well. The costs to come to a race like this are fairly high. Besides, many of the racers (72 entered the B tunnel and 64 the Sport B classes in March 08) look to the race as a means to improve their racing game and what they need to do to catch up to the upper tier racers. Taking away a round from them would give justifiable reason for a riot. Not the way for me!

 

[TUNLBOTR]

Gabe,

Voted to keep 4 rounds to determine, don't care much for A/B. It's a shame we couldn't pull off a Internats style format, Heat race to determine who advances, with oval and straightaway. Heat racing gives all a chance, top advance to show what they got. Just a thought for the future....

A large part of a good heat racers success is his Crew Chief / Pit Man.

Thats the only downfall of 2.4, etc. I travel 500 miles with a set of competent eyeballs to spot, then go to the race and take "whoever is standing around" to spot, launch the boat, etc etc. Thats the equivalent of a NASCAR race picking spectators to be spotters. Don't seem right......

STONE AGE ROCKS..... Like that 5 year old boat and motor I wear you out with. :lol:

Hope all is well, pM me if you need anything........

FLINTSTONE PREMO h34r:

 

[Mark Poole ModVP]

After being on the CD stand at the Tunnel Race and being one of the people who had to calculate who made it into the B main and then double check who made it and then explain, show and prove why others did not make it, solving any radio conflicts and finally decide what order to run the mains.............I agree....if not broke don't fix. If you are fast, have a good handling boat and you can drive well then you will get there. Let the chips fall after 4 rounds and run offs.

Now, as far as getting the race done, here is how.......

The CMB club will need to do what the Atlanta and Orlando clubs do or any other club that puts on a BIG race which is run the race and wait for nobody. Fact is you either love these kind of races or you hate them. Myself, I like them because if I go to a race like that I go prepared and know that the race will run with or without me being ready. That is how this race will need to be conducted.

Not ready? You sould have been, we are on the clock.

A few waves from the retrieve boat? Watch out for them, we are on the clock.

I don't like the cruelty of that either but that is what we will have to do to get a race like this done. Those of you who were at the very first Tunnel Race witnessed how much fun we had. The fun will have to come from the race experience itself because the CMB club will have to keep the show rolling. Come prepared.

Mark