BL Motors and Controllers

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hey Guys,

Just some thoughts to clear the air on the BL stuff because there's been allot of talk about reliability lately.

In the beginning (mine anyway ;D) I ran brushed stuff and had several heated posts on the topic, right Dick? When they first came out (BL stuff) the cost was out there and people said if you weren't running BL you'd get beat. My mission was to prove that you could get it done with brushed motors and I did.

Now is a different story, the costs of the BL stuff has come way down and reliability is way up. Actually dollar for dollar BL is cheaper than brushed stuff. Compare a hot 12 cell setup and the cost for a brushed setup is MORE than a BL setup. The brushed motors I ran LAST YEAR cost me 180.00 each and a ESC was 90 bucks. This year my 12 cell motor cost 115.00 and a controller for 140.00. With the lower cost came no maintenance and reliability. I use Hacker Navy controllers and haven't lost one to water and they do get wet now and then.

Hacker has gone to a conformal coating similar to a RC-Hydro ESC and they work great. As long as you use the BL stuff as reccomended you shouldn't have any problems.

Paul.

 

[Climate Boatworks]

As long as you use the BL stuff as reccomended you shouldn't have any problems.

This is the key statement! "As recomended "

Recomended from the people who manufacture the product, not from Bubba the Sunday hack and smash racer.

Peter R.

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hello Peter,

not from Bubba the Sunday hack and smash racer.

LMAO!!!!! Hey, wait a minute, I reassemble that remark. ;D

Paul.

 

[Andrewg]

Peter and Paul

I have to agree with specified limits they arent hard to observe everythign works a treat

And the waterproofing doesnt have to be perfect if people take reasonable care these things last a long time

brushless have been the cheap option for a couple of years now yet I still see people saying a modified and gearbox are good - they are the most expensive if u have to buy a lathe and parts

 

[Pagemaster]

brushless have been the cheap option for a couple of years now yet I still see people saying a modified and gearbox are good - they are the most expensive if u have to buy a lathe and parts

I have to agree that in the long run brushless is cheaper, but lots of people want to ease into the hobby. Not jump into a $800 kit.

 

[MikDee]

As Steven said, My Sentiments exactly!,,, I am in this for a hobby, been doin it about 2yrs now, and still have way to much invested, just to putter around with boats. I am not poor, but far from rich, and on a fixed retirement income now. I am constantly tempted to go brushless, but it is so costly. I am sure most beginners are not looking to invest so much money to start with. On ocassion I have entered local races, but it is a joke to run against brushless, as it seems to be dominating most classes, except N1 mono. I think brushless should run in a class on it's own, because it's pushing brushed motors right out of the picture!,,, I mean "get real" nothing else can compete with it!,,, and I am just the little guy, who doesn't own a hobby shop, or profit from it, to be able to keep up. I might continue to race brushed once in awhile as a "folly", so I can ocassionally win when a brushless boat flips, or crashes. Or maybe they should allow a handicap in the racing classes to add more cells on a brushed motor, to keep up with brushless. Or as some would suggest, maybe I should sh**can all my brushed stuff, after all, some consider my investment worthless, and blow all my money on brushless!

 

[Andrewg]

Mike

LSH runs the cheapest setup out there.

Save a little at a time a brushless motor will be with you in years to come as the comm doesnt wear and the arm need replacing

You can go brushless for around $200 and be competitive.

A word of advice avoid modifieds they are a money and time trap - easy entry but the most costly of all to run - simply never intended to run at the sort of continuous amps we put thru them

 

[MikDee]

Mike

LSH runs the cheapest setup out there.

(I don't have a hydro, yet)

Save a little at a time a brushless motor will be with you in years to come as the comm doesnt wear and the arm need replacing

(I don't have a racing hull worth putting it in)

You can go brushless for around $200 and be competitive.

(Yeah, maybe for a motor, but you must have a dedicated matching brushless controller, so you can almost double that figure.)

A word of advice avoid modifieds they are a money and time trap - easy entry but the most costly of all to run - simply never intended to run at the sort of continuous amps we put thru them

(Not even refering to them here, it's my now obsolete 700 motors, maybe I can run extra cells in P mono, or P offshore, just to keep the playing field even!)

 

[rcrdps]

Mike,

700 motors aren't really a comparison with brushless unless you're running enduro. For the sprint classes, the proper motors to be competitive would be Megas, Pletts, and Astros. The 700's wouldn't be competitive in a sprint class even if it was all brushed.

I think Andrew was counting the cost of motor and esc. For the lower cell counts, it's doable. Even as an up front cost, brushless is now lower(for sprint setups). Like you said though, most of us have already paid up front for brushed.

Right now, since I'm into making my own controllers, and I have a few good brushed motors(Astros, Mega, 700, and a modified), I will probably stay brushed for a good while. If I ever buy another motor though( when I get a raise), it will probably be brushless.

Gene

 

[RBidwell]

Andrew said LSH and in this class the 700 is a spec motor. All racers are running a 700. No one is saying you would be competitive raceing a 700 against a plett or mega motor

 

[Propjockey]

Just a question from a nitro guy...why can't you use a solenoid instead of a controller? A simple "on and off".

True, you wouldn't have variable throttle response, but wouldn't it work for SAW or sprint?

 

[forresterace]

Propjockey

Back about eight years ago, I used to race in 12 cell sport hydro and used a 5 turn Astro 25 motor. I made a simple servo-operated switch with copper contacts and raced quite successfully with just on/off control. I did have a good handling hull that would turn at full throttle so it worked well. I did this for a couple of seasons.

When Astro came out with the 4 turn wind, of course we all had to try it. The 4 turn motor switched on to full throttle so violently that no driveline set-up (flexshaft) would stand up to it. I spun several shafts before I gave up and went to a electronic speed control. This, of course is only possible with a brushed motor. A brushless motor cannot be made to work at all without an appropriate BL speed control.

 

[crowebar]

Good comments Paul.

I do remember our little debates. I also appreciated what you were doing and supported your efforts.

Over the last 20 years I've run about every electric power option there is. 05 direct and gear drive motors, Astro Flights, Plettenburgs, Graupners, Aveoxs, Lehners and Hackers just to name the big ones. I've alwasy been interested in seeing what different power options can do. Too be honest, I'm glad BL stuff didn't come out sooner (in my little boating carrer) as I've enjoyed the lessons leared from brushed motors.

In the end, there is a place for each technology.

For sport running and goofing around you can't beat a 700bb for value. For all out sprint racing, nothing compares to a BL. Anyone what to argue this, great, I DON'T CARE, you are wrong! Opinions are cool! It's even cooler when you can back them up. I can.

Dick

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hey Dick,

You know one of the things I did this year was prove that you can use a low dollar BL setup and win. That was a mission and I can tell you I killed a WHOLE BUNCH of good 2400s in the process. My favorite was showing up in MI this year with a P Sport and P Hydro powered by a 120.00 5000XL. Can you say RPM, lol. Doug and Brian both drove the boat because they couldn't belive it.

Can't argue the fact that BLs are faster but a well prepped brush motor combo can still place with a steady hand. Although with the prices as they are now it's kinda silly to try, even on used stuff.

Paul.

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hey Dick,

Forgot to mention, I still love my gear boxes, more so with the BL stuff. I know you like the 1/16th scale stuff so I hope you have something special to run against me next year. My 1/16th is killer on the GB. As a matter of fact I think you said nobody has beat you with a GB so get ready bud cause I'm ah comin', lol.

Paul.

 

[rcrdps]

I'm still quite a fan of gear boxes too. For the average boater, they're probably not any good, but for someone who works their props a little, I think you have an advantage. The average props favor high rpm. Till handling problems develop, I think it's better to go down in rpm and up in prop.......namely pitch, which is why you have to modify your props.

Gene

 

[sjslhill]

I would agree....I like rebuidling motors also. But that's just me.

Steve

I'm still quite a fan of gear boxes too. For the average boater, they're probably not any good, but for someone who works their props a little, I think you have an advantage. The average props favor high rpm. Till handling problems develop, I think it's better to go down in rpm and up in prop.......namely pitch, which is why you have to modify your props.

Gene

 

[crowebar]

Hey Dick,

Forgot to mention, I still love my gear boxes, more so with the BL stuff. I know you like the 1/16th scale stuff so I hope you have something special to run against me next year. My 1/16th is killer on the GB. As a matter of fact I think you said nobody has beat you with a GB so get ready bud cause I'm ah comin', lol.

Paul.

BL's in a gearbox is a different story for me. My position in the past as a anti gear head had more to do with 05's in a gear box as a direct comparrison to a BL system. The BL motor by it's very design is a more efficient and more powerful option. A gearbox was the only fighting chance most 05's would have to remain competitive. Now your telling me you're running a gear system to further optimize a BL motor. Sounds good to me.

I'll keep hanging my hat on a direct drive setup for now, I think I have a motor that is very optimized for a direct drive 1/16th scale. If this is the case then the added drag and weight of the gear drive would be to your disadvantage. If you've got a system that is even more optimized then mine.......you have may just have the first geared system to run me down.

Notice I didn't mention any manufactures? Could it be that I'm not trying to sell anything and I truly believe the BL is the racing advantage????

Can't wait,

Dick

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hello Dick,

Notice I didn't mention any manufactures?

LOL, your killing me. I will say that I'm using a Hughey GB, the finest unit made. I think you'll like this boat Dick. You can blow on the prop and it will spin. It also has the coolest sound when running, just like a mini turbine. My setup, H&M Viper Turbine, Hughey GB ratio?? ;D, XL5000, Hacker 70, straight shaft, x437/3, 8 3300s.

I can't say about the rest of my boats but this one "I" think is the quickest O-Sport around. This is also the only boat I have that I won't sell.

Paul.

 

[Climate Boatworks]

This is also the only boat I have that I won't sell.

I know you better than that Paul. If I handed you $2500.00 right now, I could be running that boat on Sunday. ;D

Peter R.

www.climatemodels.com