The Spoon trick

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Geraghty

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This spoon experiment demonstrates the Bernoulli Principle.

This is what the bottom of a "rounded" riding surface does when you try to turn a boat.

This is what causes a hydro to "nose steer".a tunnel boat to "hook" and a mono to "spin out".

Just very lightly hold the spoon between your fingers and feel how the spoon is drawn into the water stream.
 
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This spoon experiment demonstrates the Bernoulli Principle.

This is what the bottom of a "rounded" riding surface does when you try to turn a boat.

This is what causes a hydro to "nose steer".a tunnel boat to "hook" and a mono to "spin out".

Just very lightly hold the spoon between your fingers and feel how the spoon is drawn into the water stream.

Rod

remember this ? Written on jan 10, 2005

All humor aside ,I was trying to give to you what took me 4 years,15 to 20 boats and literally hundreds of trips to the pond to learn.It is all so simple once you understand it.

Much to my chagrin,I have finally realized that you can't get there from here without going through the process.Honestly,the spoon tells it all.

What you experienced with the spoon is the Bernoulli principle.Research it.

If you are still so inclined then go to work,experiment and really understand the principle and learn how to apply it.This is my last "post" on this subject,forever.

If you have a question or want to talk about it I will be glad to discuss it on the phone or face to face but not on this G.D. computer.

Last words......I "know" this to be true.The Bernoulli principle is the only design parameter that cannot be compromised and this applies to tunnels,hydros and monos."Anything" that touches the water can and will feel the effects of the Bernoulli principle.Remember I said "ANYTHING"!

Everything else lift,CG,length,width,tunnel depth,dihedral,prop placement etc,etc,etc can all be compromised depending on boat application.If you want a boat that does "nothing stupid" and is blister fast,Bernoulli cannot be compromised.

If you have a boat that spins out,hooks,nose steers,doesn't launch worth a sxxt,will not air out,turn well or won't turn left then Bernoulli has been compromised.

There isn't a fiberglass boat made that ain't a can of compromises.

I am positive that there is more out there to be learned and yet to be discovered.

I know of one little design item right now just waiting to be found.It absolutely solves one of the tunnel boats biggest faults.

Tommy Lee discovered this item in 1996 and its success can be traced right back to the spoon.Really neither Tommy or myself never really knew what he had until about 18 months ago and by that time Tommy was no longer able to go on.I no longer have the passion or desire to continue racing at the level I once attained so this item is just going to sit here in the bank until someone earns it.

I am positive that someday somebody really dedicated into tunnel testing and design will run across this find and believe me they will have earned it.They will have to really understand what makes a tunnel boat work before they will even recognize what they are trying to solve.Right now this tunnel boat fault is just mutually accepted as the nature of the beast.

I suspect before it is done this discovery will be the next quantum step in tunnel speeds.

[side note.....Mark Anderson and I introduced Jim Auguston to the wedges on the sponson fronts at the 2nd Kingdome scale race in 1989.Mark and I put them on his boat between heats so he could get the boat through the corner.I still talk to Jim on a regular basis.

I just talked to Jim a week ago.He is retired and doing great flying his ultralite,restoring a old shovelhead Harley and riding a Honda Goldwing.

I still have Jims Winston Eagle lobster S.A.W. boat here all repaired and ready to run. 8lbs-3oz. RTR with a Picco EXR .67]

Ronald.
 
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I got it Rod ;) I think Im going to go shape some foam for some sponsons tonight. B)

Larry Gempp Jr.
 
If holding it with your fingers isn't enough ... put tape , any tape that will hold, fold it onto itself then just hold the tape and back the spoon into the stream of water .

;) :huh: :unsure: <_<

Needless to say I spent much of a rainy weekend with some bondo and a tunnel hull.
 
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This spoon experiment demonstrates the Bernoulli Principle.

This is what the bottom of a "rounded" riding surface does when you try to turn a boat.

This is what causes a hydro to "nose steer".a tunnel boat to "hook" and a mono to "spin out".

Just very lightly hold the spoon between your fingers and feel how the spoon is drawn into the water stream.
Hey Rod, did you just see the 1000 watt light bulb go off here in T.O.? :lol:

I've been fighting a problem with my 60 hydro all season, I call it "darty", in other words you give it a little rudder and it wants to jump 5 lanes. Once in a corner it's fine. :blink:

Gary mentioned in Flint about metal gear servo's having more "slop", that could be part of my problem, but the front sponsons on that boat have a little "belly" to them, kinda like the back of your spoon. :eek:

My 40 boat doesn't have that bad habit at all, you can correct down the straight if needed, it's nice and smooth and predictable. I do have a plastic gear servo in that boat but another big difference is the front sponsons are dead flat for the back 10" or so, hmmmmm... :)
 
That's what makes an airplane fly too.
[Jose,I know you understand this.These remarks are for those who are trying to understand Bernoulli.]

You are absolutely right.........As velocity[air speed] increases,pressure decreases.= Bernoulli

The air velocity over the top of the airfoil causes a vacuum at the top of that airfoil and "atmospheric pressure"on the bottom of the wing pushes the airplane up into the air.

Another example;When you suck on a straw you are not sucking anything up that straw.When you suck on a straw you create a "vacuum" in the straw and "atmospheric pressure"applies pressure to the top of the fluid in the glass and "atmospheric pressure"pushes the fluid up the straw.
 
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I see many rigger tubs with curved bottoms. It would seems that this would make the boat difficult to launch as this very effect would hold the tub to the water. I have seen obvious benifits from having this curve in the tub bottom, many have to do with building and stuffing tube.

maybe another thread talking about the effects of curved tub bottoms and flat bottoms?
 
Hey Rod! According to Bournelli, then the problem with my WOF hooking is a possible rocker situation with the sponsons? They sit bone dead flat on the table with razor sharp edges where the sides join with the bottom...... its the non trip in question to me, with a definite edge there,( an edge, I intend to round off) causing a trip situation upon entering the turn. Or not. The faster you run the water the harder the spoon sucks into it, what, if the blow off prone tunnel hull, would be wrong, in building a semicircular hull,( exaggerated) if the faster it goes the harder the "effect" holds the hull to the water? Problem, being with finding the point that the effect is lost, and lift off commences.... In theory, or not, at least with my spoon, faster water meant more pull..... Now, theory, and completely as so, what, and you and tommy may have tried, would happen to a build, if, said builder made the surfaces "S" shaped to countereffect the effect fore and aft? Say, down ( reverse spoon) at the rear, and up at the front ( normal spoon) Or vice versa...... To me the hulls balance as if on a fulcrum, so, it would seem logical, to build the reverse and normal the same, all else being equal, to start? Finding the point of the normal, and reverse lift built into the boat would seem a task worth looking into, its just plywood and foam, right? OR not...... In my judgement, as these hulls reach the maximum speed by design each one is unique to, lift off occurs and you have, in effect, compromised bournelli, just like a plane does upon reaching its speed upon takeoff....... Ramblings from an idiot, possibly, Searching for the tunnel answer, always..... I know you dont like to type, take it as you will, I do appeciate the brain strain.... mike
 
Hey Rod! According to Bournelli, then the problem with my WOF hooking is a possible rocker situation with the sponsons? They sit bone dead flat on the table with razor sharp edges where the sides join with the bottom...... its the non trip in question to me, with a definite edge there,( an edge, I intend to round off) causing a trip situation upon entering the turn. Or not. The faster you run the water the harder the spoon sucks into it, what, if the blow off prone tunnel hull, would be wrong, in building a semicircular hull,( exaggerated) if the faster it goes the harder the "effect" holds the hull to the water? Problem, being with finding the point that the effect is lost, and lift off commences.... In theory, or not, at least with my spoon, faster water meant more pull..... Now, theory, and completely as so, what, and you and tommy may have tried, would happen to a build, if, said builder made the surfaces "S" shaped to countereffect the effect fore and aft? Say, down ( reverse spoon) at the rear, and up at the front ( normal spoon) Or vice versa...... To me the hulls balance as if on a fulcrum, so, it would seem logical, to build the reverse and normal the same, all else being equal, to start? Finding the point of the normal, and reverse lift built into the boat would seem a task worth looking into, its just plywood and foam, right? OR not...... In my judgement, as these hulls reach the maximum speed by design each one is unique to, lift off occurs and you have, in effect, compromised bournelli, just like a plane does upon reaching its speed upon takeoff....... Ramblings from an idiot, possibly, Searching for the tunnel answer, always..... I know you dont like to type, take it as you will, I do appeciate the brain strain.... mike
Mike, I am going to call Rod sometime this week when I have time around work, and try and do some in depth study of this subject. I will let you know anything I fndout at the pond man!
 
Hey Rod! According to Bournelli, then the problem with my WOF hooking is a possible rocker situation with the sponsons? They sit bone dead flat on the table with razor sharp edges where the sides join with the bottom...... its the non trip in question to me, with a definite edge there,( an edge, I intend to round off) causing a trip situation upon entering the turn. Or not. The faster you run the water the harder the spoon sucks into it, what, if the blow off prone tunnel hull, would be wrong, in building a semicircular hull,( exaggerated) if the faster it goes the harder the "effect" holds the hull to the water? Problem, being with finding the point that the effect is lost, and lift off commences.... In theory, or not, at least with my spoon, faster water meant more pull..... Now, theory, and completely as so, what, and you and tommy may have tried, would happen to a build, if, said builder made the surfaces "S" shaped to countereffect the effect fore and aft? Say, down ( reverse spoon) at the rear, and up at the front ( normal spoon) Or vice versa...... To me the hulls balance as if on a fulcrum, so, it would seem logical, to build the reverse and normal the same, all else being equal, to start? Finding the point of the normal, and reverse lift built into the boat would seem a task worth looking into, its just plywood and foam, right? OR not...... In my judgement, as these hulls reach the maximum speed by design each one is unique to, lift off occurs and you have, in effect, compromised bournelli, just like a plane does upon reaching its speed upon takeoff....... Ramblings from an idiot, possibly, Searching for the tunnel answer, always..... I know you dont like to type, take it as you will, I do appeciate the brain strain.... mike
What in the hell did I do to deserve all this??????? :huh: :)

Lets start by spelling Bernoulli correctly.

1.Mike,unless your sponsons are dead flat from their tips to their tails......they are "not" dead flat.

2.Hydrodynamics and aerodynamics are two different subjects in the design of a tunnel hull.

Trust me,the spoon experiment tells it all.

Mike,you just keep rounding off all your edges and build some "S" shaped sponsons and enjoy your extended afternoons you are going to spend in the chase boat.
 
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Here you go guys. To put it in laymans terms, round surfaces are bad. Front to back and side to side. Now try the same experiment with a flat piece of plywood. It does not get suck into the water stream.

Mike

Rod, you should of let this one lie. ;) :D
 
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Rods got everyone this board rinsing off spoons now !!!! :lol: :lol:

I have a related question on the trailing edge of sponsons. Is it better for the trailing edge that touches the water to be dead perpenedicular to the water flow so that the water leaves the sposon at the same time or would you want the outside trailing edge to be slghtly forward of the inside so it it rides more on the inside edge. With dihedral, that will make the sponson "tiptoe" trailing inside corner.

see the picture.

Or would the water grab onto the trailing edge and run towards the inside edge creating more drag?

sponson_view.GIF
 
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Rods got everyone this board rinsing off spoons now !!!! :lol: :lol:

I have a related question on the trailing edge of sponsons. Is it better for the trailing edge that touches the water to be dead perpenedicular to the water flow so that the water leaves the sposon at the same time or would you want the outside trailing edge to be slghtly forward of the inside so it it rides more on the inside edge. With dihedral, that will make the sponson "tiptoe" trailing inside corner.

see the picture.

Or would the water grab onto the trailing edge and run towards the inside edge creating more drag?
RE:The Bernoulli Principle.......It make absolutely no difference at all.

Dan,Send me your phone [email protected]

Seriously,I need you to teach me something.
 
[quote name='Geraghty' date='Oct 10 2006,

RE:The Bernoulli Principle.......It make absolutely no difference at all.

Dan,Send me your phone [email protected]

Seriously,I need you to teach me something.

Dan,I received your number.I will try to call soon.

I see you are from Texas.

Did you race this last weekend against Vince Baumanns new twin???
 
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[quote name='Geraghty' date='Oct 10 2006,

RE:The Bernoulli Principle.......It make absolutely no difference at all.

Dan,Send me your phone [email protected]

Seriously,I need you to teach me something.
Dan,I received your number.I will try to call soon.

I see you are from Texas.

Did you race this last weekend against Vince Baumanns new twin???

The kubota "Deer Hunter" twin? :p

Nope I ran 40 hydro. Looked like he was having a little trouble getting the two sing together but when they did it was FAST.
 
[quote name='Geraghty' date='Oct 10 2006,

RE:The Bernoulli Principle.......It make absolutely no difference at all.

Dan,Send me your phone [email protected]

Seriously,I need you to teach me something.
Dan,I received your number.I will try to call soon.

I see you are from Texas.

Did you race this last weekend against Vince Baumanns new twin???

The kubota "Deer Hunter" twin? :p

Nope I ran 40 hydro. Looked like he was having a little trouble getting the two sing together but when they did it was FAST.

He still isn't getting enough air to the motors through the cowling.When he pulls back on the throttle the boat speeds up. :)

The "Deere Hunter" has a Bernoulli free sponsons and tub.

I understand he was able to just creep up to the starting line and hammer the throttle with instant response and boat speed.
 
He still isn't getting enough air to the motors through the cowling.When he pulls back on the throttle the boat speeds up. :)

The "Deere Hunter" has a Bernoulli free sponsons and tub.

I understand he was able to just creep up to the starting line and hammer the throttle with instant response and boat speed.
I didn't pay that close of attention to its slow tracking. Looked like he had to feather the throtle because one engine was coming on sooner than the other and it would kick tha A$$ end around.

I'll have to take a closer look next time he's at a race.
 
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