Wire Drives???

[LOU]

loctite 603

 

[dannyual767]

loctight 603

Just to be sure; this is to connect flex cables inside stub shafts in lieu of siver soldering?

 

[LOU]

Yes, I have used it for flex(electric). I think you can use 609 also. Unlike Paul, I have had flex glued with this fail, but if done correctly the wire should break first. Your cable that had the wobble probably had to much solder used and when it cooled the exposed cable was bent abit. I now use wire for most of my setups.

 

[dannyual767]

I forgot to add that I run nitro. The wobbly shaft was used with a piped OPS .65. I'm going to assume that this locktite should only be used for electric motors :unsure: .

On one of my current projects, I'm working with a low output HPI .15 (piped) with a watercooled head. Do you think the locktite would work in this application or should I just go with a soldered cable/shaft assembly?

 

[crowebar]

No doubt wire drives have some efficiancy advantage. I've also spoke with Arne Hold (the "A" of JAG's) and he felt as I do that in shorter runs the efficiancy loss of a cable system is negligible. However, they run there motors toward the front of their boats and can benefit from the wire drive.

My boats have the batteries in front and the motor in the back third of the boat. A nice performance example is Q Hydro. Both my boat and Tim Higdon's Q rigger ran 107 MPH. His ran a wire, mine ran flex. Perhaps his was faster and I drove a better line or visa versa. In either event the two boats were very closely matched. Both used the same motor, prop and batteries. Only the Hulls and drive systems were different.

Does that mean I'll run a cable in next years SAW boat? Nope. I'll put a wire in it. But only for SAW boats. All oval boats will continue to get cables. I'm a big fan of strut adjustment. In my opinion a wire drive would be a detriment to me in an oval boat by limiting my setup possibilities. At nationals I've run the same boat in as many as 3 different classes (different days of course) Often I will need to make dramatic strut adjustments depending on power/prop/weight issues. In one boat I go from a 700BB motor to a 50 series motor (about 1/2 inch difference in shaft centerlines, no problem for a flex) Oh ya, who has ever travled to an event and the water was like pudding? Or maybe hard as ice? It's nice to be able to loosen or tighten things up. Flex is very forgiving in these areas.

Both work good in their "own best" applications.

Good Luck!

Dick

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hello Guys,

Paul, you use glue  ? What kind of glue would hold this stuff????

Yep, I use Permatex Green Sleeve Retainer. (similar to LocTite) It's available at Napa auto parts locally. This stuff is super strong and I have no doubt it would hold up to a nitro motor. Jim Vaugns Super Sport 45 that ran 70MPH at the SAWs had a glued shaft, that's some big ponies pushing that boat to those speeds. I have a .187 glued cable in my 1/8th scale that runs in the 60s twisting a 65mm prop, no problem.

Paul.

 

[dannyual767]

Paul, that Permatex Green Sleeve Retainer sounds like the stuff to use. If it can hold up to the power that you're throwing at it, it shouldn't have a problem with my little .15 or even my OPS and K&B 11cc engines .

On the other hand, I guess I could just try to silver solder things together.

BTW, how much is the Permatex Green Sleeve Retainer?

 

[Don Templeton]

I also use the Permatex Sleeve Retainer in my 12 rigger. (3000psi shear-+400 Degree F) Octura .130 flex and stub shaft. Just make sure you have a good tight, clean fit. I think you can sometimes damage a cable with too much heat when soldering.

Don

It's Item #765-1149 at NAPA. You get a small 6ml tube for I think about 10.00.

 

[Watercadet]

Do you heat the glue to de-bond?

Adam

 

[jayt]

I'm surprised you think bearings in the strut aren't an advantage

You'd better read my post more carefully Paul. I said it is the "least" advantage of wire drives - that's because it really isn't an advantage of wire at all, it can be used in both drives. Plenty of wire drives use LT or straight T bearings, the latter is what I use.

I would think that on the water the loads placed on the LT or Teflon bushings by the weight of the boat and prop rotation would cause more friction than having roller bearings?

That may be true, but there are practical advantages of LT bearings over rollers - same as there are some practical advantages of flex over wire. Still, I believe that the fastest nitro boats use sleeve bearings, not rollers or teflon.
It makes me smile when some racers heatedly argue the merits of one cable lube over another cable lube without data to support either side - yet they will completely discount the effects of wire over cable when there is plenty of emperical data showing a definate reduction in power loss with wire. Numerous tests show from 2% to over 10% more power delivered with wire on low powered (4-cell and 6-cell) setups, with the greater improvements at higher (20,000+) rpm. One of wire's biggest advantages over flex is in SAW boats, where with rpm over 40,000 rpm the advantages are even greater.

Wire isn't for everyone or for every application, and like I said before I still use flex on some of my boats. Interestingly, most of the opponents of wire don't have much or any experience with it. We'll revisit the subject in a few years and see where it's gone....

 

[jayt]

Jim Vaugns Super Sport 45 that ran 70MPH at the SAWs had a glued shaft, that's some big ponies pushing that boat to those speeds.

Actually it did not, he replaced your cable with a Hughey soldered cable for the SAWS. Still, he used yours to get into the 60s during a lot of testing, he was just afraid that original cable would give out - it was looking pretty worn. But there is no reason to think that the glued joint would have failed.

 

[crowebar]

Interestingly, most of the opponents of wire don't have much or any experience with it.  We'll revisit the subject in a few years and see where it's gone....

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Too true Jay, I would fit in that catagory, but like I said, saw's boats will get them, Oval boats stay cable. Both to take advantage of each's strength.

Hey Jay, did you drill deeper into the octura stub? I've got one and the flex hex to go with it. What is your take?

Dick

 

[Jeff Wohlt]

I have built over 150 wire drives to date. Out of those we have had around 6 come part...mainly my own fault but learning what holds and what does not is the key and I think it takes Loctite and a good mechanical connection. What I did learn is SS is a non-active metal so you have to make it active with additional chemicals.

The latest design and I am testing does not just rely on Loctite alone but also a mecahanical connection. They won't come apart or slip. I now use both connections.

I have sold many built for .078 and .093 which is for 24 & 32 cells. After a few were breaking .150 cable on 32 cells we tried .093 and it works well.

They work in most any hull with cat hulls being the least likely hull but many do.

They work well. Quiet, smooth, lighter, stronger than flex and won't rust. Almost zero maintenance, wipe it off and put it away.

We run ours with teflon with a 1.5" exposed teflon at the strut for easy adjustment.

I still leave a slight gap at the drivedog and thrust up on the motor or thrust bearing on the motor.

There are lots of benefits to running wire. The more you play with them the more you see the benefits and licke them.

One thing I really say helps with any drive but especially wire drives are real bearings in the strut. I run all mine with bearings.

The wire, because of the dia, turns half as many rpms than a flex with 1/8" dia.

We work so hard to reduce drag in out FE boats...well a teflon bearing with side-to side thrust while running on it is not very efficient....I decided to build my own and they work well.

A flex with thrust wants to become a knot so it is bound to be dragging on the stuffing tube much more.

They are also much more dry than a flex because the way the flex is designed...it become a pump for water.

They work best in Hydros and monos or a longer wire for the cat...this helps any wire system when the wire is longer...less angle for the stuffing tube.

Paul, let's put a .093 in that Altas and you tell me think it rocks. They works great for large hydros because you can make a wire drive 3' long is you need.

 

[Jeff Wohlt]

Dick, 1/2" won't cut it for the stubs and wire. They are also too long for most struts out there. Mine are made with the same shaft size as the the Fuller/Fine struts use (Ed's cables). Around 1-3/4"

Ours get down to the 1-1/4" for depth. This was also a problem early on with some of the failures and locite only. With the mecahical connection they are not going to come apart at the stub and breaking piano wire is **** near impossible.

Dick, get one from me to play with. 1/16", .078 or .093. I can also provide one the very best couplers as well. 4 set screws on the wire and 2 on the motor...or use a octura style. The set screw versions are lighter, balanced better for high rpm and give a nice flat end to run a trhust bearing...if a person wants.

 

[Jeff Wohlt]

Sorry I found this link late.

I see both sides and also see Pauls point. Y

How about running no stuffing tube? Many do and one being the fastest riggers I have ever seen in oval...Paul will attest...was Klaus at WI race ...just walked away from everyone...lapping and then some...but man can that guy drive!!

I enjoy trying new stuff and after Twaits Sr. and Jr and a few of the East coast guys were setting records on simple brass over wire I decided to try something different with drilled stubs.

I have never broken one...even after taking out a bouy and a prop at WI. Just as a bad install job will eat a flex cable...same goes for wire.

I also sand and polish my wires so they are smooth and very slick.

You also do not need to worry about having the wire so close to the motor supported with teflon or brass at the motor end...leave about 1-1.5" exposed...makes it easy to line up and less stress on the alignment.

For real efficiency don't use teflon...wire in brass is faster and you can stay with 1/8" stuffing tube....just size the strut nose down with some K&S.

With brass tubing you can make a wire drive for about $1 or less and use a wheel collar.

We also build the step down shaft 3/16" to 1/8" hub and these are popular for the high rpm BL motors.

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hello Guys,

Lots of good info here. Boy, I really enjoy having a good chat about these types of subjects. (doesn't happen very often)

That may be true, but there are practical advantages of LT bearings over rollers - same as there are some practical advantages of flex over wire. Still, I believe that the fastest nitro boats use sleeve bearings, not rollers or teflon.

You know Jay, I completely forgot about sleeve bearings. I use them in several of my boats and like them ALLOT.

It makes me smile when some racers heatedly argue the merits of one cable lube over another cable lube without data to support either side - yet they will completely discount the effects of wire over cable

I hope I was clear about my thoughts on wire drives, I agree with you 100% on the performance advantage over flex cable. My thoughts are stricly for oval racing where I really haven't seen the advantage of one way over the other. Just to many things happen on the oval to benifit from the 2 to a 10% gain of wire.

If I build a SAW only boat for next year I'll put a wire drive in it but this year I came with my oval boats which all had flex drives in them. I didn't think they worked too shabby.

Actually it did not, he replaced your cable with a Hughey soldered cable for the SAWS. Still, he used yours to get into the 60s during a lot of testing, he was just afraid that original cable would give out - it was looking pretty worn.

You sure about that Jay, He called me in a panic because he couldn't find a replacement cable that was that long. I built him a new one before the SAWS. Not to say he didn't get another one but he didn't say anything about it.

Paul.

 

[RIGGERMORTISE]

i think I have got more info from this post than i ever would have expected.

I have located the magazine with the article and it is October 2003 and I now have dramas with my sill scanner and i will get it done as soon as it starts working.

riph, bzubee, john night and ozzy i will email as soon as i can

Thanks

Dave

 

[TimD]

The wire, because of the dia, turns half as many rpms than a flex with 1/8" dia. 

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I'm not trying to be a smart a55 but how does that work? Last time I checked rpm meant revolutions per minute. Diameter has no direct correlation on rpm whatsoever whether it is .093" or 90'. The velocity of the outside diameter is a different story and therefore the effects of surface friction - maybe that is what you meant. Please clarify.

Tim.

 

[Preston_Hall]

The wire, because of the dia, turns half as many rpms than a flex with 1/8" dia. 

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I'm not trying to be a smart a55 but how does that work? Last time I checked rpm meant revolutions per minute. Diameter has no direct correlation on rpm whatsoever whether it is .093" or 90'. The velocity of the outside diameter is a different story and therefore the effects of surface friction - maybe that is what you meant. Please clarify.

Tim.

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I was thinking the same thing. But even the surface friction difference would be questionable. Both systems are only contacting on a tangent to the shaft diameter and the flex shaft doesn't have a continuous surface contact due to the windings. It seems the flex may even be less surface to surface contact.

 

[Grimracer]

The light rotating mass of the wire would allow motor to accelerate faster but knowing that we need a fly wheel on our nitro motors....?

As for the contact area.. I built a wire dive for one of my FE boats years ago and I have just a short length of stuffing tube running through the hull bottom.,. the wire is running free for about 80% of its length.. cant do that with a cable.. just the same I can not see any huge advantages to a wire drive for a heat racing boat.

Don’t want to write it off.. but the dive systems in our nitro boats have been proven for years.. Besides I have other problems (driving mistakes, decreasing the amount of luck it takes to win a heat and boat handling) that I must over come first.

grim