RTR class(es)

[Kelly Miller]

Anthony I hear you completely, but lets get STOCK ironed out first which will be the basis to which we go from.

Kelly Miller

Yes Chuck I am completely independent not unless you consider I sell big boats for my day job (Cobalt and Crownline Dealer)

The address to send all of the boats t is

I can't help but think modified will find a place but lets take this one step at a time.

Kelly Miller

 

[Ron Olson]

I was just looking at the ABS class rules to see how possibly it could be altered to be made into a RTR class and I just removed a whole lot of typing as this isn't going to be easy at all to lay down some ground rules.

With some manufacturers using pull-starters or the Sullivan Tiger Drives it's hard to say that if you want to use a hand-held electric starter that the original must stay in place. See the mess already and I've just started? Hoo-boy!

Using the ABS class as a guideline, I wouldn't want to see a LeMan's type of start being used. Four lap heats would be iffy also but then again it might make it less stressful on the newbie boat racer and host clubs might like the idea too to get the class out of the way for those with already full schedules of racing.

Keep it to mass-produced boats only. Ready-To-Run is too broad in some aspects. Is there a minimum number of boats that would have to be made before it is considered a mass-produced boat? 500? 5,000?

So far we've only talked about the hydro's for the most part. Next will be the monos and there are a lot of them out there, Nitro-Vee's, Nitro Hammer's, Aqua Jet's and so forth.

Thew rules would have to be basic enough to make them adapt easily for these also.

I see potential for the class but I also see a nightmare for making the rules to try to keep everbody happy.

It would have been a lot easier if the mass-producers had built boats for existing rules, either "A" or "B" and not 'tweener sizes, i.e., too big for "A" but not competitive enough for "B". Maybe just call it an "A+" class and have it for up to .189 cubic inches.

I dunno, it's late and the grey matter is fried.

 

[anthony_marquart]

I certainly don't know what all the rules should be. I do think there should be as few as possible. who cares how the boats are started? If the rope on your pull starter breaks you'll use a belt. If you want to take the one way bearing out cuase you don't use it, who cares. Will it impact the speed of the boat? That's a good question. If it does will it be enough to make the rookie drive more likely to win? I doubt it. Most guys running RTR boats will be buying there fuel from the LHS, most of them only like 30% max fuel.

Maybe someone could draft up a list of rules and post,.. then maybe we could comment. I don't know, maybe someone is already doing this,... I may not have read close enough.

 

[piper_chuck]

I certainly don't know what all the rules should be. I do think there should be as few as possible. who cares how the boats are started? If the rope on your pull starter breaks you'll use a belt. If you want to take the one way bearing out cuase you don't use it, who cares. Will it impact the speed of the boat? That's a good question. If it does will it be enough to make the rookie drive more likely to win? I doubt it. Most guys running RTR boats will be buying there fuel from the LHS, most of them only like 30% max fuel.

Maybe someone could draft up a list of rules and post,.. then maybe we could comment. I don't know, maybe someone is already doing this,... I may not have read close enough.

For stock class, engine modifications shouldn't be allowed. This means the boat should be started as shipped. If the flywheel has a groove for a starter belt, it should be ok to use one, but if it came with a pull starter or tiger drive, those should stay on the engine. Since the one way bearing is part of the stock engine, it has to stay. I agree on the fuel thing, I think we need to settle on a nitro percentage that is readily available in local markets.

As far as drafting some rules, someone is already doing this!

 

[piper_chuck]

I was just looking at the ABS class rules to see how possibly it could be altered to be made into a RTR class and I just removed a whole lot of typing as this isn't going to be easy at all to lay down some ground rules.

With some manufacturers using pull-starters or the Sullivan Tiger Drives it's hard to say that if you want to use a hand-held electric starter that the original must stay in place. See the mess already and I've just started? Hoo-boy!

John Equi has sent me a set of RTR rules that had more detail than what's in the rule book now. I started with them.

Using the ABS class as a guideline, I wouldn't want to see a LeMan's type of start being used. Four lap heats would be iffy also but then again it might make it less stressful on the newbie boat racer and host clubs might like the idea too to get the class out of the way for those with already full schedules of racing.

Agreed. I'm leaning toward saying the class will follow normal heat racing rules, but including an optional LeMans style start that could be used.

Keep it to mass-produced boats only. Ready-To-Run is too broad in some aspects. Is there a minimum number of boats that would have to be made before it is considered a mass-produced boat? 500? 5,000?

So far we've only talked about the hydro's for the most part. Next will be the monos and there are a lot of them out there, Nitro-Vee's, Nitro Hammer's, Aqua Jet's and so forth.

Thew rules would have to be basic enough to make them adapt easily for these also.

Yup, the monos need to be included, as do cats. The only thing I know won't be included is airboats.

I see potential for the class but I also see a nightmare for making the rules to try to keep everbody happy.

Ain't that the truth! I can see this already, there are many different ideas on what "stock" should be. Hopefully by talking it out here and in the other thread you created, we can reach a consensus and have rules that everyone can live with. I do know that those of us who have raced more traditional types of boats do need to listen carefully to those who focus on RTRs. However, we also need to use our boating experience to help determine what does and doesn't work.

It would have been a lot easier if the mass-producers had built boats for existing rules, either "A" or "B" and not 'tweener sizes, i.e., too big for "A" but not competitive enough for "B". Maybe just call it an "A+" class and have it for up to .189 cubic inches.

I dunno, it's late and the grey matter is fried.

I thought about some kind of sub .21 size limit, but what about boats like the TC31? It's clearly an RTR, and at the right price point.

 

[piper_chuck]

I agree with all most everythinh you guys say. I still think we should have a modified RTR class though. People like to tinker with their engines, pipes and stuff. I really do. I'm hoping to get a Vegas hull without the engine. I'll have to toss in what I have, though be it a smaller displacement. Yeah, this would put me in the modified class but I would still be able to race. What happens when your stock engine takes dump on you and all you can get is one that fits? (in time or whatever)

Having the stock engine die is no different than throwing a rod during open water the day before a race. You've either got the parts, or an entire engine, or you don't. Standardizing on the original engine should actually increase the odds that a fellow boater will have either parts or an entire replacement engine. Additionally, by keeping them stock, and keeping the nitro levels lower, people won't be pushing the engines as hard, and theoretically, they should be less likely to blow up.

The other question along these lines is what happens if the engine is no longer made? In this case, perhaps a substitute that's got a similar price tag should be allowed.

I certainly don't want to see $400 engines in a $300 boat but either. But how many people are going to do that? it doesn't really make sense..

I agree, it doesn't make sense, but you'd be surprised what some daddies will do to help their 10 year old beat other peole. In fact, you'd be surprised what some 40 year olds will do to beat others! Trying to sneak high $ engines into a stock class is done often enough that it's worth writing something into the rules so it's dealt with ahead of time.

Whatever happens I like it. I'll be able to race competitively and not mortgage my house...

And that's the whole point to this discussion, inexpensive, fun racing!

 

[anthony_marquart]

So we are just trying to define the stock class here right?

 

[piper_chuck]

The first task is stock, but thoughts are being collected on others at the same time.

 

[Kelly Miller]

I know that in our wichita race I left my engine stock and even wondered about removing the wing if I was taking Sam's boat too far from stock. I had a lot of satisfaction in knowing I had made the boat perform as well as I could working with only what came in the box. I have raced cars and boats for a long time and the

cars were my first exposure to "Stock" rules. I enjoyed the thought of pushing specific equipment to the limits. I enjoyed stock class a lot. It was allways troubling to me to see disputes over who had done what to thier engine. A good system to keep that from clouding the fun would be great.

I enjoyed very much watching my son enjoy the same sport I did when I was his same age. My dad taught me a lot about a wide variety of things all the way from construction to tuning the bottom working props and even working on engines. I learned to appreciate competition how to win and lose. Probably the best thing he taught me was integrity......you don't cheat.

Kelly Miller

Sam Miller Racing

 

[Ron Olson]

Another thought come to mind. Let's tackle the problem of engines. We all seem to know about the problems with one and it's issue with crankshaft breakage. Another would be that the .15's aren't as fast as the .18's or that your engine blew up and needed to replace it. Place a maximum amount on the price of a replacement engine, say as using a rough number, under $130.00 street price. Retail prices are a joke as nobody pays the retail price (I hope). Sale prices wouldn't count but only what the normal person would pay.

We not only has to keep in mind of what is currently on the market but what may be coming out in the future.

Kelly, one possible way around the rear wing-no rear wing would be to paint the boat up like a 7 liter hydro, a lot of them don't use rear wings. I myself like the option of using the wing or not.

Let's look at the ROAR rules for a second. In their stock classes, about the only thing that the rules dictate are the motors used, a 27 turn single wind motor. What body and tires or anything else that you do is fine but don't mess with the motor! They don't care who makes it as they are only coming from 2 or 3 manufacturers anyway no matter who slaps their decals on them.

 

[Kelly Miller]

I think I see your point Ron, are you saying that if you blew up the aqua .18 you would rather replace it with a different .18 engine rather than the aqua .18 as long as it was a specific price? and I see your point, most of the 27 wind electric motors were very similar in performance because the timing was a locked in factor. I think for stock class we would have to stay with the stipulation of origional equipment.

It is though a good reason for a modified class and perhaps a rule for modified.

lets keep it simple

lets keep it fair

lets have some fun.

Kelly Miller

it would be fun to see a lot of custom paint jobs show up.

 

[Kelly Miller]

Hey you know me James anytime boats are running I like to be there and always interesting to see what is new. Lynn's P1 is looking good.

I have to look at the dates and try and set something firm so I can get some promotion going for the race.

can hardly wait to see the pits full of buds, lumars, vegas, tc31, shokewave, 1/8 buds and many others.

Pinky Vegas is fine......It will look good with a orange blur blasting by..HA

My Idea for the race is still

Stock

Modified

Unlimited

Later

Kelly Miller

Sam Miller Racing

 

[Frosty]

Im enjoying reading all of this but its kind of like we are traveling the same ground over and over.

Chuck...if you are making a set of rules lets see them when you get done(hopefully quickly) and then we will tear them to shreads . Just kidding. I'm interested in seeing a set of rules. I agree you need to start with a base. Plain stock is good. Then expand upon that. Just make sure your expansion is sooner rather than later.

I also do not want to see a $400 motor in a $300 boat in stock class but if you have an unlimited RTR class, I wouldn't care what was in or what wae done to there boat. An unlimited class, to me, lets everyone see what the potential of a boat can be and I like watching that.

One point I did have problem with. I do not know how to add quotes so I'll just mention it. Ron you mentioned a 4 lap race because "host clubs might like the idea too to get the class out of the way for those with already full schedules of racing".

I understand that adding races to an already hectic schedule is kind of a hassle, especially when so many could care less about a RTR class. I do not think the RTR class should be minimizes in any way. It should be run the same as every other race and get all the same kudos for winning. I know that I would be happy runnng any way you have RTR set up. If the class was not the same type of race as the rest of the classes, my enjoyment would last about 3 races and then thoughts of why is the RTR class being treated like a step child. We get only 4 laps and they get a full race. I personally do not want to run in a class that people are going to say lets just get this out of the way. I would not and do not feel welcome to a statement like that and that will drive off as many people, if not more, as not being competitive.

If this class is going to be set up it should have equal standing as all the others. If its not you will have people getting in and out quickly.

another question:

On a claimer race, I think I understand but you are claiming only the motor correct? If this is the case only the final race of the day for that class can be a claimer. This is suppose to be a low budget operation and if my motor gets claimed in the heats, I cannot race anymore because I do not have a broken in spare. It also begs the question, can any motor be claimed or just the winners? I have seen where the fastest does not always win and some might want to claim a motor from a non-winner.

I personally do not like the idea of a claimer race but it would stop people from pouring a ton of money in a stock motor.

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

I think one way to restrict this is to leave it as a rookie class allowing anyone who, to our knowledge has never raced a R/C boat of any kind. I see this as potentially becoming the same issues that occured with stock outboard and Sport 40 I classes and I don't think it would be a good idea to get a new guy caught in the middle of a bunch of dos and don'ts. I think this is the cause of pushing many new guys away. We should stick to the intent of the class which is to get new people involved. If you are experienced, you already got the bug. You race 21 classes. I think muddying up the water with a bunch of rules will hurt the intent. Just so long as the guy can present a boat that displays stock components that should be it. The best really is for each club to provide the boats but that is a big burden as I have had people maintain six Proboats at a race for this purpose and that is a full time pit job.

I think the intent is to keep it simple. I should remain that way all the way around. Now of course there is a potential problem when the manufactures start competing by putting upgrades in a stock package. Then what is stock. I think that is always been the question? So then it is a double edge sword. You can run the risk of choking the class the death with a bunch of rules... or be influenced by the manufacturer that decides to take the lead in performance... but at least that could be a good thing becuase if the manufacturers compete on performance you know that the parts are readily available for everyone then maybe... eventually stock is a fully high speed 6o mph race machine that you can buy off the shelf and go racing. Wouldn't that be nice!...

But I think for now we should keep it simple and adjust as time goes on. If the Vegas happens to be the "Hot Boat" at the moment then so be it... if sales drop off for others then they will add some performance into their and then maybe shift the interest to their product... and so on and so on.... until we have ready to run 100mph boat crafts. Don't kill ourselves and the intent of such a class by making "having fun for the beginner" more complicated than it has to be.

 

[piper_chuck]

Frosty, Kelly and I have both been working on the rules. I've actually got quite a bit done and he and I are supposed to level set, hopefully some time this weekend.

The claim rule will be the subject of great debate. Your point about claiming in the middle of a race is very important to keep in mind. A claim, if exercised definitely needs to be after all the racing is done. The claim would compensate the person for their engine, plus a bit. I hadn't thought about whether any engine should be "claimable", or just the winner. As you said, the fastest boat doesn't necessarily win, and perhaps any engine should be subject to being claimed. OTOH, if the fastest boat isn't winning, perhaps it's a non-issue.

And finally, the racing format, complete agreement. An RTR class should get equal running time. Also, using the same racing format begins training beginners for other classes.

 

[Ron Olson]

Frosty, what I was using was from the IMPBA's ABS class rules in which they wanted a LeMan's type of start (not good in my feelings as you'd have to wait for someone while your engine overheats) and the 4-lap format. I was neither for or against the 4-lap race but just using it as a possible alternative.

Yeah Chuck, let us see what you've got!

 

[Frosty]

Glad to hear where your head is at on those issues. I'm feeling good about this whole deal. Which for my sake is good.

Hypothetical situation

If I had a boat that was blueprinted well on the bottom, good fin, prop and rudder and had everything right but I couldn't get my motor to work just right. I would go to a claim race and look for the fastest runner not necessarily the winner, and buy his powerplant.

By ther way Ron it was more about the get it out of the way portion of the comment that bothered me. I understand you may not feel that way about RTR but there are those that do.

 

[Ron Olson]

As you may know or not, I'm all for a RTR class, especially the smaller boats as maybe some of the people that look at them as toys might get a different idea once they've seen them run.

What we have to do is get all of the I's dotted and the T's crossed to avoid any loopholes in the rules. I'm all for the KISS principle but see where some weak spots on some of these boats need to be fixed for safety and reliability which would keep them out of the pure out-of-the-box state.

I'll have to take my rulebook to work with me and check out some of the other rules again including the claimer rule.

 

[anthony_marquart]

I dissagree with the idea tht if you have raced you can't race RTR. Many people would like to get back into the hobby but can't afford an expensive boat.

 

[Frosty]

Ron

it has never crossed my mind that you are not for RTR classes.

I'm also leary about only letting new boaters run. If a veteran wants to run let him. Treat it as any other class. Parity among classes will lead ease of transition for asll involved.