Neu & Aveox motors

[Jeff Shriver]

How different are the Neu and Aveox motors? Both are 4 pole motors. The Neu motors are considerable more than Aveox's. Is it worth the extra money?

 

[jayt]

Good question. From initial reports I've received from trusted sources, the Neu motors are very good. Perhaps it's similar to comparing the Nemesis to the Hacker - is the Hacker worth the extra money? Are there other factors besides top performance and initial cost? These are difficult questions to answer for many folks. :unsure:

 

[raptor347]

Having spent lots of time playing with every high performance electric motor out there (not always in boats ). I can say that the Neu motors are about the best I've ever run. The Lehner motors are the only thing that comes close in both quality and performance.

The torque is amazing. Examples:

N2 rigger-

1506/1Y 5500 kV turning an x637 and not overworking the motor or ESC

(motor and esc under 130 F). I've been using this for my sport setup.

1506/1.5D 6800kV running an x432, temps after 90+ seconds of full throttle running, 145 F on the motor and 140F on the ESC. Scary heat race combo.

O-sport-

1509/1Y 3300 kV turning a P220 radared in the mid 40mph range. ran through the pack and the motor and esc were both under 140 F (don't ask me about the battery temps :unsure: )

Build quality is much better than Aveox IMHO.

I now own 8 and have sold everything else I had in the toy box (I kept the little carbon motor for the N-2 cat ).

Brian

 

[Ray Fuller]

I have 2 now the 1512/2d 500 more rpms that a aveox1524 1.5 and lots more low end power. Much smoother and runs cooler by far.

1509 1.5D 4500 per volt double the rpm of the aveox 1524 1.5 and the hacker 8L

and lots of power runs the 8 cell mono like a hydro.

YES THERE IS A NEW Sheriff in town. and they are not coming soon they are here. lol Ray

 

[Dan Proulx]

So where do you go to buy one of these 'Neu' motors?

 

[Pagemaster]

So where do you go to buy one of these 'Neu' motors?

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Dan right now http://flydma.com/motors/neu1506.asp?path1=motors&path2=neu

He is the main distributor. We will have them, I'm sure Ray and others will have them also. The problem is that the supplies are very limited. I'm sure that will change soon.

Steven

www.OffshoreElectrics.com

 

[Dan Proulx]

Raptor347,

I'm curious as to what criteria you are referring to when you say that the Neu motors are higher quality than the Lehner motors.

I don't doubt your sentiment I'm just in disbelief with your example a 5500 Kv motor turning a X637. I presume you were running it direct drive?

The equivalent Hacker would be between a 6 or 7S or between a 4 or 5 L motor. I don't think you'd have very good luck running those direct drive with a X637. At least, I never have.

I'm not loyal to any particular brand of motor but I am heavily invested with Hackers at the moment. If there's something better out there then I'd like to know about it.

Can you reply with what you mean in terms of the Neu motors "being the best you've ever run". And also let us know if you were running them through a gear box or direct drive.

Thanks for you help.

 

[raptor347]

Dan,

I suppose I shouldn't make comparisons like that, I've owned Aveox, Lehner, Hacker, Kontronik and several others over 10 years of F5D racing. The quality statement was simply based on materials quality, fit and finish. They really are nicely done. The shaft material is very hard (wait till you go to grind a flat for set screws). Bearings appear to take lots of abuse. I like the fact that there are holes in both endbells so I can hose out any water that gets in there. I'm just very impressed with the construction.

Actually the scariest motor I've ever seen run was a prototype that Harald Konrath made that never went into production. Luckily for the rest of the competitors, it ended up in Mission Bay before the start of the 2000 worlds.

The 1506/1Y is direct drive. I was running it with a y535 on 8 cells and wanted to play with a 6 cell setup. On 6 cells and the y535 it had more than 3 minutes of run time with GP3300's. Motor was 125 F and ESC was 115 F. Just for grins I figured I'd make a pass with the X637 to see what it would do. Well, the motor pulls the prop just fine and doesn't overwork all the parts. If you don't believe me, ask Greg S. or Mark F.

If you ran a pack through a 6 or 7 S with the 637, I'm guessing you'd have to get a new rotor (demagnetized due to heat).

All the setups I posted are direct drive.

As for being the best I've ever run. Here's a little of my history:

I started flying F5D pylon in 1995. The only brushless at the time were Aveox and Lehner. I ran Aveox because they were available here. I was located in L.A. so I was close to Aveox anyway. I made the US team for the 1998 world champs. We (we being the f5d team) needed to do some developement on motors, so I spent a bit of time at both Aveox winding motors and at Steve Neu's building rotors and running them on his dyno.

On a side note: After al this I spent several years winding motors for Aveox. I wound most of those Aveox 14xx/1&1.5Y's that were built between 1998 and 2001.

We ended up taking a stack of 1409/1Y's with cut down rotors and sensored ESCs to the Worlds in Germany. Long story short, I finished fifth behind the four germans, 2 running Lehner and 2 running Kontronik. I made a lot of friends there. I brought home at least one F5D motor from each manufacturer and several new sensorless ESCs. I had lots to play with.

I've made the team twice since then and in the end haven't made it to either contest. Grad school got in the way of the 2000 worlds and for 2004 I found out my wife was pregnant and our daughter was due within a month of the contest.

I was flying an early prototype 1506/1.5D at the 2003 team selection. It was the only non-hacker being flown by a competative pilot. Ended up in the third spot on the team, the other two just out flew me. My airplane had several MPH on the those in first and second (radared at 180 vs 174-5).

Anyway, I've spent a lot of time playing with these little brushless motors. So far I haven't found anything that comes close to the Neu motors. And yes Steve is a friend, but so is Herald Konrath.

Essentially I'll run whatever makes the most power. These are the best I've seen of what is currently available.

Brian Buaas

 

[Dan Proulx]

Thanks Brian,

I'd certainly say that yours is an opinion worth listening to.

I was kind of hoping that these motors were too good to be true. It's taken me years to figure out what Hackers to run in a specific application.

The propect of having to figure out another line of motors isn't one I'm looking forward to.

But if they're that good then it'll be worth it.

I saw Greg Schweers Neu powered El Lobo III in Arizona this past February so I can attest to the speed that they have.

Dan

 

[Watercadet]

Dan,I suppose I shouldn't make comparisons like that, I've owned Aveox, Lehner, Hacker, Kontronik and several others over 10 years of F5D racing. The quality statement was simply based on materials quality, fit and finish. They really are nicely done. The shaft material is very hard (wait till you go to grind a flat for set screws). Bearings appear to take lots of abuse. I like the fact that there are holes in both endbells so I can hose out any water that gets in there. I'm just very impressed with the construction.

Actually the scariest motor I've ever seen run was a prototype that Harald Konrath made that never went into production. Luckily for the rest of the competitors, it ended up in Mission Bay before the start of the 2000 worlds.

The 1506/1Y is direct drive. I was running it with a y535 on 8 cells and wanted to play with a 6 cell setup. On 6 cells and the y535 it had more than 3 minutes of run time with GP3300's. Motor was 125 F and ESC was 115 F. Just for grins I figured I'd make a pass with the X637 to see what it would do. Well, the motor pulls the prop just fine and doesn't overwork all the parts. If you don't believe me, ask Greg S. or Mark F.

If you ran a pack through a 6 or 7 S with the 637, I'm guessing you'd have to get a new rotor (demagnetized due to heat).

All the setups I posted are direct drive.

As for being the best I've ever run. Here's a little of my history:

I started flying F5D pylon in 1995. The only brushless at the time were Aveox and Lehner. I ran Aveox because they were available here. I was located in L.A. so I was close to Aveox anyway. I made the US team for the 1998 world champs. We (we being the f5d team) needed to do some developement on motors, so I spent a bit of time at both Aveox winding motors and at Steve Neu's building rotors and running them on his dyno.

On a side note: After al this I spent several years winding motors for Aveox. I wound most of those Aveox 14xx/1&1.5Y's that were built between 1998 and 2001.

We ended up taking a stack of 1409/1Y's with cut down rotors and sensored ESCs to the Worlds in Germany. Long story short, I finished fifth behind the four germans, 2 running Lehner and 2 running Kontronik. I made a lot of friends there. I brought home at least one F5D motor from each manufacturer and several new sensorless ESCs. I had lots to play with.

I've made the team twice since then and in the end haven't made it to either contest. Grad school got in the way of the 2000 worlds and for 2004 I found out my wife was pregnant and our daughter was due within a month of the contest.

I was flying an early prototype 1506/1.5D at the 2003 team selection. It was the only non-hacker being flown by a competative pilot. Ended up in the third spot on the team, the other two just out flew me. My airplane had several MPH on the those in first and second (radared at 180 vs 174-5).

Anyway, I've spent a lot of time playing with these little brushless motors. So far I haven't found anything that comes close to the Neu motors. And yes Steve is a friend, but so is Herald Konrath.

Essentially I'll run whatever makes the most power. These are the best I've seen of what is currently available.

Brian Buaas

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Man the stuff I know of at the bottom of Mission Bay (MYB anyway).... I have some props down there too. Maybe I should get the wet suit and metal detector out

Adam

 

[brooks93]

hmm interesting.. I am with you Dan except I own almost strictly Lehner motors but, these Neu motors have got me thinking

 

[raptor347]

Actually it's not that bad to pick a motor. Go with roughly the kV you've been using in a given application, if anything go a bit hotter. Just realize going in that you'll need to go larger on the prop.

The funny thing about these motors is how much torque they really have. The motor I ran in the N2 boat at the 04 L.A. SAW's Is a prototype 1110/1Y.

Tiny motor for the power, about the size of a B40S. At 5000 kV I couldn't put enough prop on the boat to make the power system even breath hard. The 43.77 record was set running roughly 55 amps.

Wait until next year

Brian

The production line is ramping up. I don't think he was quite expecting the response he's gotten. The Heli guys are sucking up 1515's as fast as they can build them :blink: .

 

[David Newland]

"The 43.77 record was set running roughly 55 amps."

Dang, Brian. That's a mid 3 minute offshore set up with fresh 3300's, and under 400 watts.

Are you bringing any of your toys to MC-6? Glad to have you messing around with the boats!

 

[crowebar]

Brian,

Thanks for your input and background. I've heard nothing but the best about Neu motors and Steve himself, he even came to my rescue on a post in the brushless forum on Rum Runner.

I am curious though. I've always been under the impression that comparing 4 pole motors to 2 pole motors was a little like comparing apples to oranges. I've been led to believe that 4 pole motors have inherently more torque then a 2 pole and that 2 pole motors have the advantage over 4 pole motors in high rpm applications. Have I been mislead? Kind of like putting a Ferrari motor in a monster truck or a big block in an Indy car. Probably a lousy analogy, but that is my impression.

You mention running a x637 on a 6S or 7S Hacker. My conflict here is I would never want to run a x637 on my 6S. I prefer that motor because I love a X632 on my N2 Rigger. I've tried large props with my 5L but don't like the way the boat handled with that setup. If there is an Aveox or Neu that can swing the 632 and outperform my 6S...... well, the record is 56 seconds for 5 laps. Go for it.

I have no doubt that the Neu, Aveox, plet or even mega would have advantages in certain applications over a 2 pole Hacker or Lehner. But I also think that in the correct application the Hacker or Lehner would be the pick.

What I would find more interesting is overall efficiency. My guess is the Nue motors are more efficient then the Aveox. They may even be more efficient then the Hackers, Lehners or anything else for that matter. I've heard other claims from another manufacturer about being their motors being the lowest efficiency in the world and maybe they were/are, all I know is that I didn't have any trouble running away from them when I went head to head against them. Perhaps they didn't have the correct motors for their applications. See where I'm going.

I could be way off base and totally wrong, Am I?

I guess we'll know more when we all hit the water! The best place to settle it all!

See you soon!

Dick

 

[raptor347]

I'm not going to make it to MC-6. My wife and I are relocating up to Portland OR, we decided to to get out of SoCal when our daughter was born. That's taking up most of my spare time right now. Besides, Ray's going to have me up to my eyeballs in boat molds pretty quick here.

Let me get a season under my belt with the Seattle guys and I'll be ready to come play.

I'm having a great time with FE boats. It's a more friendly environment than the pylon racing world has become.

Brian

 

[raptor347]

Hi Dick,

Actually the 2 vs 4 pole comparison is pretty valid. The first think you need to do is compare motors of the same kV, generally speaking a 4 pole of the same kV as a 2 pole will have more torque (there are several variables here that I won't go into). You also need to compare motors of roughly equivelent mass, a 500+ gram 2 pole (think Lehner 2250) will make significantly more torque than a 200 gram 4 pole (think Neu 1506). Both of these motors are available in the equivalent kV.

The common train of thought that 2 poles are better for high RPM comes from the time when switching rate in the ESCs was the limiting factor. In the early ESCs, switching rate limited the 2 pole to 60K then a 4 pole was limited to 30K (the limits are from memory, don't hold me to these numbers). The RPM limit of the motor is structural at this point.

The x637 example is more a case of the motors capability not a recomended setup. The boat doesn't handle as well as it does with a smaller prop. I'm in need of building a new rigger, the one I have is not as slippery as I would like. I'm guessing that the 1506/1.5D might pull the 632 in a very well setup boat (I'll send it up for you to try if you like ).

Finally, you're right. It doesn't matter how much better a motor is, if it's mismatched to the rest of the system or in a boat that is poorly set up, it's not going to win. Ultimately, the driver needs to be able to heard the thing around the course. Lot's of shortcomings con be made up by driving skill. Didn't I overhear you saying you ran your LSH in a P-sport heat and won .

Brian