K&B red carb:Tell us about it

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Jeff Torgalski

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
231
K&B red carb:Tell us about it

I recently purchased a K&B 3.5 and got two carbs with it. One is an ubiquitous black carb, then another is red. The red has a larger inner diameter at the carb's exit. Can I use this on my engine, or is it for a 7.5? Does anyone know of any setup tips for initial use: for example, how many turns out on the needle? Also, what is the initial setup for the black carb?

This used engine needs a new prop bushing. Can anyone suggest a retailer or individual that I can buy K&B parts from?

Thanks,

JT
 
Re:K&B red carb:Tell us about it

Jeff,

Stay with the black carb, it will be much easier to keep a needle-valve setting with - more user friendly if you will. Open the needle-valve 3 1/2 - 4 turns and adjust as needed.

Try Gary Preusse for K&B parts (630) 279-2451 he doesn't e-mail.

Jerry Dunlap
 
Re:K&B red carb:Tell us about it

Jeff,

Use the black carb - more user friendly. Open it up 3 1/2 to 4 turns and adjust as necessary.

For K&B parts, try Gary Preusse - (630) 279-2451 - no website or e-mail - just call him.

Jerry Dunlap
 
Re:K&B red carb:Tell us about it

Thanks for the reply, Jerry. The only question I have now is.....

Which one of you is the imposter?

Seriously, does anyone have info on the red carb? Why do you suppose it's more "finicky"?
 
Re:K&B red carb:Tell us about it

Jeff here is what I have on the K@B carbs:

Black carb, Bore .265 Neck dia. .437

Gold carb old .308 same

Gold carb new .312 from 94 on same

Purple carb .340 same

Red carb .345 same

Gene ;D
 
Re:K&B red carb:Tell us about it

Jeff,

When I posted both times last night I received a prompt telling me I'd exceeded 30 seconds so I thought something wasn't working right.

Anyhow, the reason the red carb is more difficult to needle is it doesn't draw as well :( . The red carb "doesn't suck" - but that's a bad thing not a good thing when it comes to fuel draw.

The gold carb is the one most of us are now using.

Jerry
 
Re:K&B red carb:Tell us about it

Yeah that error message has been around for a while, I get it too sometimes.

Actually just got the same message on this reply, but the edit worked OK,

Weird!!!

Gene ;D
 
Re:K&B red carb:Tell us about it

This Gary Preusse, does he run a hobby store?

Same area code as mine, and its got to be close, can you tell me what store he is at??

thanks

Tom
 
Re:K&B red carb:Tell us about it

You might also add that Gary is one of the fastest people on the water...and he holds several records to prove it!

If you live close to Gary, I envy you. You should really try to hook up with him sometime and 'pick his brain'. If nothing else, just go watch him run some of his water-rockets...you'll be amazed!
 
Re:K&B red carb:Tell us about it

Just a note for the good, I talked to Gary today, He is very nice, and very helpfull, and best of all he knows his **** on boats and motors. Nothing worse than going into a hobby store and asking something and you seem to know more than the kid behind the counter. I PLAN on watching him run also.
 
Old post, I know.
I have been using the red carb on all my 3.5cc engines with really no issues. Now with the gold head ss engine everyone is telling it wont work, not in those words but more or less that's what they are telling me.
I have not ran the red carb with the gold head yet but am getting ready to.
I don't see why it wont work, the gold head engine has the same rotating parts, and sleeve as all the older K&B's have, the only thing different is the head design (Similar to the turbo head) and the old Fire style muffler/pipe. I can not believe a simple turbo style head and or pipe would turn a reliable red carb into a dinosaur.
As far as the red carb not drawing (Sucking) this is the first I have herd of this and am baffled, dumbfounded, it's in large my mind as to why this is. if the carb just won't draw from pipe pressure why not use crankcase pressure? has anyone tried that? Someone has had to have, I sure.
 
The issue is.. Allowable incoming volume and incoming speed.. and incoming fuel "volume" for that "just right mixture"..

Also.. maintaining combustion chamber operation temperatures. (A BIG ONE).. a video Rod showed me years ago of one of Tommys record runs is still stuck in my head..

All of this comes from excessive "opportunity"

Volume of case to volume of opportunity.. .. its just a bad match. (PROVEN!) I dont have all the facts BUT.. dyno testing by some heavy hitters years ago PROVED that you can and will make more power with a "smaller" inlet then .350ish" (Relative to the 3.5cc engine tested).. not just power BUT RPM TOO!

If you are "reaching" for pressure to solve fuel draw issues, pressure might not be the best fix.. Truth is you can make a glo motor run VERY WELL with ZERO pressure at all... (you knew this tho.. I am sure)..

In the end.. what happens on the water and how that "fits" your performance program is all that's important.. go and do the testing.. like I did.. like many others did.. and report back your findings.

In the end.. HAVE FUN MISSING AROUND.. its all good!

Grim
 
The issue is.. Allowable incoming volume and incoming speed.. and incoming fuel "volume" for that "just right mixture"..

Also.. maintaining combustion chamber operation temperatures. (A BIG ONE).. a video Rod showed me years ago of one of Tommys record runs is still stuck in my head..

All of this comes from excessive "opportunity"

Volume of case to volume of opportunity.. .. its just a bad match. (PROVEN!) I dont have all the facts BUT.. dyno testing by some heavy hitters years ago PROVED that you can and will make more power with a "smaller" inlet then .350ish" (Relative to the 3.5cc engine tested).. not just power BUT RPM TOO!

If you are "reaching" for pressure to solve fuel draw issues, pressure might not be the best fix.. Truth is you can make a glo motor run VERY WELL with ZERO pressure at all... (you knew this tho.. I am sure)..

In the end.. what happens on the water and how that "fits" your performance program is all that's important.. go and do the testing.. like I did.. like many others did.. and report back your findings.

In the end.. HAVE FUN MISSING AROUND.. its all good!

Grim

Appreciate all the technical info Mike! Love soaking up the knowledge and hitting the drawing board to learn some more!
 
The issue is.. Allowable incoming volume and incoming speed.. and incoming fuel "volume" for that "just right mixture"..

Also.. maintaining combustion chamber operation temperatures. (A BIG ONE).. a video Rod showed me years ago of one of Tommys record runs is still stuck in my head..

All of this comes from excessive "opportunity"

Volume of case to volume of opportunity.. .. its just a bad match. (PROVEN!) I dont have all the facts BUT.. dyno testing by some heavy hitters years ago PROVED that you can and will make more power with a "smaller" inlet then .350ish" (Relative to the 3.5cc engine tested).. not just power BUT RPM TOO!

If you are "reaching" for pressure to solve fuel draw issues, pressure might not be the best fix.. Truth is you can make a glo motor run VERY WELL with ZERO pressure at all... (you knew this tho.. I am sure)..

In the end.. what happens on the water and how that "fits" your performance program is all that's important.. go and do the testing.. like I did.. like many others did.. and report back your findings.

In the end.. HAVE FUN MISSING AROUND.. its all good!

Grim
I think you missed my reply 100%. LOL Hold on, my Dyslexia has to have time to process your reply!

What that means is I simply trying to converse and talk.

First, dyno's don't work in the real world as they are controlled environments and variables.

Secund, air/fuel travels faster in narrow passages, than in wider passages. fast/slow Turbulence, I'm sure you knew that tho.
Narrow passages have higher turbulence because the air/fuel mixture is leaner do to less area (Small Carb).
Wide passages have lower turbulence because the air/fuel mixture is richer do to more area (large carb).
Now filling the same combustion chamber of any engine...with two different size carb throats.
Small carb: Narrow throat/passage, Leaner air/fuel mixtures yield high rpm but torque or as you call it (power), is sacrificed.
Large Carb: Wider throat/passage, Richer air/fuel mixtures yield higher torque but rpm is sacrificed.

A stupid dyno can't determine in a controlled environment what the end user is looking for.

Someone wants to turn a de-tongued prop, a small carb would deliver high rpm where a de-tongued prop would not really need loads of stupid huge torque ratings.

Someone wants to turn a small high pitch prop, a large carb would supply the torque needed but the rpm would be lower.

depends on what someone wants and what it will be used for.

But yes it's a hobby, and I'm just curious is all. I have been out of the hobby so I never owned a SS engine during its heyday, stepping back into the hobby only to be told it wont work, has sparked a hobby, with-in a hobby, figuring out why a red carb wont run with a gold head, head, as the engines are the same just a different head and different cooling.

I was thinking because of the combustion chamber temps and insufficient cooling fins, I decided to do this see pic. A dyno didn't have to tell me that, nor did a wind tunnel.
The above is all you had to say, they overheat and go lean do to insufficient cooling fins. But you want to jack off and sound special.

I think your a cool dude but when your ready to pull your pants up and quit "Trying" to show your arses and talk like a normal person, we might get along. If not oh-well.

I built engines at the Anna Honda Engine plant, oh, for 8 years, I can get technical too but I choose to talk to people rather than try (TRY) to belittle them.

PS I was taught by the number one K&B guru in the IMPBA. He didn't rely on, lol dynos.

Keep the prop in the water and the bow up. (Hold on we might need a wind tunnel for this one)
 

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It will run with the red carb. As several have said, it will harder to tune and will not perform any better. It will run better and be easier to tune with a black or gold carb. It is common to see people put too big of a carb on in the name of performance only to see it run the same if not worse and have a very narrow tuning window. But since it has a bigger carb, they convince them selves that it is better.
 
I think it’s less of a “it won’t work” and more of a “there’s better options for peak performance”

Anything can be made to run, that’s the beauty of testing. How well it can be made to run is the end goal! I have predominantly seen red carbs run on the .45 engines. It may have “always run on the 3.5” but better options were later available. We learned through much the same head banging that the possibility for improvement and consistency can be obtained by going smaller.

I know I stepped down from a .470 carburetor, billed as one of the best available, on my 45 engine to a .380. Night and day difference in performance, of course, but especially consistency. I’m more surprised now if I don’t come back to shore.
 
It will run with the red carb. As several have said, it will harder to tune and will not perform any better. It will run better and be easier to tune with a black or gold carb. It is common to see people put too big of a carb on in the name of performance only to see it run the same if not worse and have a very narrow tuning window. But since it has a bigger carb, they convince them selves that it is better.
When you say common I hope your not referring to me? I hear you, but remember I have raced with K&B engines back in the 90's and am well aware of the tune window. Back in the 90's, I did not run the red carb because I thought it was better and I certainly didn't convince myself it was. (It was the better choice for my needs).
I ran it to get a denser fuel charge (Pack as much fuel into the chamber) to turn a small diameter 3 blade, high pitch prop. i.e I sacrificed rpm for torque to turn a high pitch prop. I added pitch to 3 blades without de-tonguing, or winging out the tips, or drilling slip holes, I simply added a lot of pitch. So I needed loads of torque.
Does everyone think people have no exp or what?


I think it’s less of a “it won’t work” and more of a “there’s better options for peak performance”

Anything can be made to run, that’s the beauty of testing. How well it can be made to run is the end goal! I have predominantly seen red carbs run on the .45 engines. It may have “always run on the 3.5” but better options were later available. We learned through much the same head banging that the possibility for improvement and consistency can be obtained by going smaller.

I know I stepped down from a .470 carburetor, billed as one of the best available, on my 45 engine to a .380. Night and day difference in performance, of course, but especially consistency. I’m more surprised now if I don’t come back to shore.

I 100%, get what your saying. And, I know I remember the narrow window of the red carbs tune.
It depends what someone is trying to do. There is no such thing as better things come along. New thing come out that might benefit someone better, but there is no definite this is the best. Know what I mean.
OK except for a two speed needle (That is much better than a single)

I know it will run fine as far as it running. But everyone is saying it wont work. So i'm wondering what happens on the water, I can only think the engine overheats with the red carb bering air cooled after a few laps.

I was wondering if maybe the dense charge crammed into an "air cooled" combustion chamber could have something to do with it (Overheating the engine) insufficient cooling fins. Making the engine lean out more than normal under load so nailing the correct setting would be harder.

Not everyone dreams of blazing speed, not every boat needs to be a top performer either.
I am using it because I have a old prather deep v OB and want to keep it in the same era. I know the red carb had a narrow window but I ran them for 15 years without an issue, of course the random dead boat in the water but all in all no problem. I have the condor hobbies 15/25 pipe coming and a head button/water jacket on the way just in case air cooling is why. I do want to run the boat so if it is just a pain in the arse with the air cooled gold head, I will
simply convert to water cooling and the engine will be just like a stock OB as the internals are exact.

The bottom boat is a lightened aeromarine with a 13mm 3.5, red carb, and condor hobbies pipe, ran this boat everyday for years without an issue. It was also very competitive back in the day. I also had about 50- 3,5's inboard and outboards and they all had the red carb. The engine on this boat was the exact same as the gold head engine except for the gold head. I can put a head button/water jacket if need be, but it is a hobby so I will tinker.

(Just because something new and easier doesn't make it better or funner, sometimes part of the hobby is actually doing the hobby).

You explained it perfect, personal preference.

Everyone wants to get technical and forgot how to just converse, thank you for talking like a person.

I just sold one SS engine and reworked this gold head LOL put a water jacket on it, will run tomorrow and see what happens. LOL

Aeromarine is long gone it was so thin it was toast in 10 years. The hawks I still have.
 

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Mic H put me onto the red carb for the Nelson 45...damm that carby runs good on the older nelson 45 motors!!!

Anyway...just an observation :)
 
i run a red carb. on my 45 o/b engine works real good, Rod G hooked me up with that one!
 
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