Active Canard

[hugh hargett]

There are two types of gyros WHICH is the corect one for this type of application?Pics anyone?

 

[Green Meany]

my u8 ultra bold has controlable front canards , my radio has programable mixs so i have set it up to link to the throttle and adjusted to come up above half throttle all this can be run at the flick of a switch

 

[hugh hargett]

my u8 ultra bold has controlable front canards , my radio has programable mixs so i have set it up to link to the throttle and adjusted to come up above half throttle all this can be run at the flick of a switch

Nice. What kind of radio do you have?

 

[Green Meany]

i am in new zealand here we often use aircraft sets as generally we are not in or near the same location what i use for the scale is a 7 channell jr x378 on 72mhz( i think 72 meg might be illegal over there in the us) , i have not run for awhile but i know alot of the guys are now running the newer spectrum type sets (2.4 gighz with frequency shift)

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Post Deleted

 

[hugh hargett]

i am in new zealand here we often use aircraft sets as generally we are not in or near the same location what i use for the scale is a 7 channell jr x378 on 72mhz( i think 72 meg might be illegal over there in the us) , i have not run for awhile but i know alot of the guys are now running the newer spectrum type sets (2.4 gighz with frequency shift)

You're right, your radio would not be legal here in the States. 72MHz is used for aircraft only while 75MHz is for surface use. To make things even more "interesting", transmitters on both of these bands must be of the "narrow bandwidth" type. The only other legal bands are general usage bands of 27MHz and 2.4GHz, legal for both air and surface use.

more importantly was the model number of the radio which would let me look at the features I have a 4 channel surace radio but its basic it doesnt have any of the nice bells and whistles so it either go with it and a head lock gyro or basic stamp and sensor or buy a new radio that has all the nice 3rd channel bells and whistles. The reason i havent reall done alot is because i want to run this scale @12 s and im having major esc issues. As soon as i can work them out we will hit the water and test different ideas. Im currently waingt for an esc repair or replacement(china).Thanks for being patient and sticking with me fellas.

 

[Blue Print]

Hi Terry, got some video somewhere of the U8 Ultra Bold on the water. You need to get the U8 back on the water and see if those canards still work....it's been a while.

 

[hugh hargett]

I think I got it!http://www.parallax....84/Default.aspx. These in the sponsons trailing edge and an algorithm based on weight. These will handle up to 25 pounds; so based on the proper cg which will correlate to a specific number and some compare statements should be a start. No gyros at all. A smaller number than the "compare register" has the flaps move up til it sees the same number as the "compare register" then decays if it can back to a neutral setting. It will do the same thing in the opposite direction based on a higher than compare register number.I was hoping to program it in basic stamp but the execution time might be too slow for basic so I may need to try it in assembly :wacko: if I cant manage to not be so WORDY in basic.It needs a servo thats fast and likely ball bearing with metal gears as it will be continuously worked. Finding the right rate of response and decay might call for a more involved algorithm. Think Its got a chance?

a vtail mixer and dual sensors might get some mcu-aided stability going too.

 

[jevmax]

Excellent. A gyro controlling the flaps works just fine. Seems to make no difference at all, but does indeed work. Been there and done that many years ago trying to go faster without blowing off.

 

[BobGutsell]

I'm yet to be sold on the idea of having dynamic flap adjustment. I finally got around to fitting canard Flaps to my cellular one and they do the job nicely in keeping her feet on the water. I manually adjust the flap angle between races by undoing a set screw and changing the angle before retightening.

I doubt I have the mental capacity to be adjusting the Flap trim during a race along with keeping myself on line and keeping up with what other boats are doing. Ideally you'd be running flaps down when running downwind and flaps up when running into the wind. With a curved turn fin, as many are runing these days, I'm not sure that flap setting makes much difference to boat speed through the turns, as the combination of the turn fin curve and the centrifugal force creating a down force on the left sponson.

Have been watching some older videos of Drivers talking about operating the flaps on the real thing and they're obviously moving the flaps all the time with their foot to keep the boat loose enough to be fast but tight enough not to lift and blow over. Needless to say sometime even their reactions aren't quick enough.

My conclusion, "Manual" Radio Control adjustment is a distraction and I really doubt that a Gyro could possibly keep a boat in the sweet spot of running flat and efectively gliding.

 

[hugh hargett]

You wouldn't be controlling the flaps in this situation; a pic micro controller will. You just drive. You expect blow over still, but we hope to push toward better performance . At least with this concept the idea of a gyro is tossed out. With that said; further down the road one one might be able to enable a telemetry feedback on the lcd readout of a FAST system. Im not sure if the Futaba has an aux telemetry or a Futaba-only telemetry package. The computer can make a million changes a second .The weak link will be slow code, the speed of the servo, or the actual processor. One member talked about how fast blow-overs take place and did a crude approximation based on 24fps the rate of the video.We later decided after further dicussion with another engineer from Australia that It would keep up no problem. Even a gyro should ;based on the fact that 3d choppers are extremely quick. thus requiring fast adjustments.

 

[hugh hargett]

If a gyro accepts user input within the system that would make it inferior to this type of control. This will be fully autonomous. Mind you, we are just having fun experimenting. Or maybe even give some ideas too the real boat guys. No harm no foul.This sytem may be used in a saw project (no turning) anyway. It just started with scales.

 

[Moneymakerspy]

Hello, I'm brand new here so thanks for having me...I could not find anything recent on the topic of gyro driven canards, spoilers, or air ducts. I am seeking an active solution for controlling hull telemetry, down-force, anti-blow-over etc, can someone point me in the direction of some current discussions?

All of the older posts talk about lag and mechanical limitations - we have surely overcome that by now, correct? I watched a video of someone programming the freeflight app from google for an RC quad-copter and it was amazingly simple and adequate (speed-wise) for something like active canards & telemetry correction for RC hydros etc...

BTW - I am building a large outrigger electric hydro from foam-core board, CF, and balsa and want to add an active telemetry stabilizing system. I will not be competing, just for sh#ts and giggles.

Any help here is much appreciated.

 

[dschigoda]

I had that same thought - that the current toy drone / quad copter control technology is doing a lot of complex computations and control movements almost instantly and continuously. You can just toss one in the air, at any random angle or attitude, and open the throttle and within a fraction of a second, it will orient it self up right, and stabilize it self, in mid air!. Amazing!

For a hydroplane, for a start, the control/sensing system would need to know the apparent wind speed and direction (relative to the hull), boat speed, angle of attack, maybe the distance the bow and transom are from the water, and change of weight / CG due to fuel consumption, all in real time.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Guys, if you really want to let electronics control the boats that much, what's the point of racing? Being able to keep the boat on the water(with all the variables and unknowns) is all a part of racing, be it a sport 20 or full sized turbine hydroplane.

I know some have used gyros, others pushrods from the throttle or rudder servo with good results. My thought on this is keep it simple, the boats are plenty fast already. All I have to do is look at how fast the winner of last year's NAMBA Nationals scale class was, driving a 7474 hull that has no aerodynamic control aids on it. It was fast enough to run away from the rest of the competition and showed no signs of wanting to blow over. That being said, do we really need to add complexity to our boats? Even more importantly, other than for experimenting, would the needed electronics be allowed at a sanctioned race? These are the questions we really need to answer, in my opinion, before looking at how to make the electronics work

 

[wayne middlemiss]

After all it's a representation of a real boat ain't it , functional or non functional.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

It was, last I knew. In fact, the only full sized boats that I know of that had any power assists were the Slo-Mo-Shun IV and V. Both of them have power assisted steering, something you won't see on any modern hydroplane.

 

[dschigoda]

Putting the philosophical issues aside...

Another thought about solving the technical problem -

In some ways, the quad copter control system is solving a simpler problem. It is working in one "medium", which is air.

On the other hand, hydroplanes are "interface vehicles". They are working at the interface of two vastly different mediums, air and water. The different densities of air and water, and how the hydroplane dances between them, make for lots of complications. It is an interesting challenge. The changes in air speed, water speed, cross winds, water conditions, all have an impact on solving the problem.

I recently read the story on the guy you came up with the quad copter control scheme. I can't recall where I read it, though. He was a recent engineering graduate from a university in Mexico. He was living in California, waiting for his U.S. visa, and was forbidden to work for a period, until his visa was approved. He was very bored. Looking for something to occupy his time... he womped up this control scheme, just for something to do!

Also - that is a good point that a simple 1974 Unlimited design model boat winning a recent RC championship. No vents, wings, canards or rear sponsons, etc. There is so much more to this sport than many people realize.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Many people discount the various facets of building and setting up a boat. Nuances in bottom and sponson angles, weight, balance, thrust angles, props, rear wing and canard settings along with who knows what all else can make a difference in a boats performance. Even the shape of the bulnose on a picklefork or canard boat can make a huge difference

 

[Chris Thomas]

I had thought of using a "Live Canard" a long time ago. My thoughts were to use an accelerometer. This would give constant voltage feedback regardless of the position. You would need to -zero- the system (at planing attitude) the the PIC would do the rest autonomously. The issue I ran into was the conversion of voltage to proportion of the signal to the servo. The accelerometer is also much cheaper than the gyro. and single plane feedback. I did a little bit of the logic using an Arduino. CT