#360 free machining brass for a head button?

[Tim Kish]

I like to do my own thing when it comes to this hobby always have , but when I see the number of qualified people saying they have seen good results from something I would be stupid not to listen.

If I have time I'll spin some up at work next week and post my results from testing.

And yes Joe your 100% correct , going fast is not an accident , its learned.

Tim

 

[dwilfong]

The ones I have are more of a dark brown. Ever try to get one to detonate......

By the time I got to using this head I was at the end of my KABOOM building.

It looks like a black anodizing to me.

 

[tnrcboatracer]

Black body radiation goes both ways. It absorbs AND rejects heat faster. I suspect that the reason the intercoolers and radiators that are natural is due to the added cost. The natural finish may yield 93% of the potential, which is good enough for most folks.

Hugh, I suggest you limit your comments to those thing you know something about. And Engineering Science does not appear to be it.......

 

[tnrcboatracer]

Tim, Terry will have to enlighten us on the coating process, but as I recall it was a type of anodizing.....

 

[hugh hargett]

Its hard to be more qualified than to be an ME that has been building and testing them for over 40 years. The dyno test should be welcomed . If it is so wont the dyno also confirm it? Everyone has the right to run what they choose but dont pass it off unless you have real proof. The dyno provides true data that should be able to be reproduced from shop to shop. If lap times drop you or I dont indeed know it was the buttons that did it if you did then could you say if they ran slower it too was the result of the buttons?A race is not a controlled environment point blank. If you dont respect the scientific method then fine. Thats what separates engineers from other folk they live off math, physics, and testing through the appropriate scientific method. The very reason a 2 cycle forum would not let everyone in - they have no time for people that dont have a basic understanding of whats appropriate in making a claim and whats appropriate in backing that claim. If you think buying a button will make you run like Joe W, buy one thats simple. If you prove it on the dyno everyone will buy one and the debate will be over. I trust that Mr. Allen would have zero reason to lie about what hes tested. Hes not motivated by sales,racing,or anything else but one thing -building the perfect motor. One of the points that were the purpose of this thread was to say aint none of the top tether car guys running 360 brass period. So dont use them as a reference for this choice of head button material. Then someone said well they run different motors than we do so what they run is irrelevant but Jim wasnt the one that made the reference hes the one thats saying the reference is inappropriate coz that aint what they run. If the charge of irrelevancy was true doesnt it also apply to the #360 brass being supposedly used by the tether car guys?????? Just something to think about.

 

[hugh hargett]

My degree tells me otherwise big dog

Sorry TN fluidyne is the leader in performance radiators/intercoolers/oil coolers right here in NC nascar country and trust if cheap black paint made them better they use it. Show me where you black radiator is cooler if you can even fine a black performance aftermarket radiator. Cost aint an issue when its freely passed onto the consumer. Those radiators cost bucks. I thought you were talking about performance coatings now its black paint on a radiator :huh: . Talk about a stretch.

A "real" high performance coating is far from black paint. The coatings create entirely different molecular properties in the metal a long ways away from BLACK PAINT :lol:

good luck with those theories !

 

[Jeff Lutz]

Well I have Raced and Ran for about 13 years now. Have had the chance to Race and Learn from Some of the Best model boaters in the country. though many do not agree with each other & even i have my own theories. sometimes we assume that what we have for current performance is as good as it can get? But many hrs at the lake testing and attendingraces watching other modelers push there boat to the MAX limit many lessons can be learned if you are paying attention. Maybe you have never seen a 92 mph 40 Hydro in Heat racing trim while the race was being ran? (stu barr in evansville approx 6-7 years ago. Maybe you have never seen a 84 mph 20 Hydro (Bill Mcgraw RR .21 Extreme same year they set the record with lackey) 100 plus mph twin Hydro ( Andy Brown Huntsville) But went you see something like this it means it can be done & you need to pay close attention to what you can see about the boat. This does not happen by accident!!! & you may not know everything about the boat & engine But when a Great Boat and a Great Engine come together at the same time and someone is paying attention to great detail It is Obtainable. No one to date can measure the amount of unburn fuel or the BTU`s or (Unspent energy) that we are Just blowing out the pipe unused?? But I can tell you that the Ideal head button alloy (Combustion Precamber) can light that fuel and You will see results. You have already bought the High Percent Nitro fuel & put it in the tank.. Why not get the Energy it can provide? Now we can talk about this till you butt falls off. Or you can just put on a Brass Head Button and see for yourself. My only wish is we could have found it 10 years ago........Now Back to making Brass Chips.........

Joe, I know I have made some comments about needing to get rid of detonation,and run aluminum. Then try the brass. If you guys are indeed burning more fuel, at a richer needle setting thats good. Don't get me wrong, I had the idea of trying brass in 1997 when I tried a steel head button. I did not have any brass in the shop, only bronze. I did not want to try bronze for a couple of thoughts I had. I will probably go ahead and machine and test a brass button against aluminum same shape/compression on a boat at the pond on my stalker in the next 2 weeks! I also only care about my final testing at the pond! See ya,Jeff
If I get 10 mph on my 101's like you,my twin will be consistently heat racing in the 100-105mph range!

 

[Joe Warren]

Jefff many RS101 twins are in the 90s Now. You may not be able to run that fast every lap due to water condtitions and traffic on the lake. But I can tell you Many are not running flat out either. Its a Great thing when you have about a 1/4 throttle that you are not using till the conditions are right..... High Ride Heights ( well over a inch) that unload the boat, Big cup props, Great Motors, And FINALLY Brass head buttons have contributed to this. Please let us know what you find especialy on your RS101. You will hear the engine when it hits the Button and it comes to temp in about 1 1/2 lap. I know you will not rest till you have them installed. Different boaters will get different results Depending if the boat is already on the edge & they are a MAX EFFORT type boater with Fresh Engines and MAX Effort set ups with props & pipes. However ever engine will see a RPM increase

 

[hugh hargett]

TN I guess your referring to Kirchhoff's radiation law. It will take something like this to win me over thats for sure. Nevertheless paint it black and report the un dynoed results. Find a law on your 360 brass and ill take it too.

 

[tnrcboatracer]

Who said anything about black paint? We are talking about coatings that impede or enhance flow of heat.

One cause of detonation is a hot spot on the surface of the compressed volume. The hot spots can be attenuated by either keeping the heat out of the material with a barrier coating, or move it away from the surface with a transmission coating. Both have the net effect of removing the hot spot and thus the detonation. The material the button is made from has similat effects. There is also the effect of the alloy elements on catalyzing the combustion event. Perhaps this is where the difference between brasss and aluminum comes in. I don't know, but from what I've seen, I'm giving the brass buttons a try.

What I'm trying to say is that there are many factors and boundary conditions that apply.

I'm not a big dog, just an observant one. The simplistic and incorrect analogy about the black and white T-shirtts lead me to an incorrect assumption. For that I apologize. I too am an Engineer (Aerospace Materials) with just short of 30 yrs experience.

 

[tnrcboatracer]

One other thing to consider is the surface finish. Once an aluminum button starts to pit from detonation, the edges of the pits can themselves become a hot spot. Perhaps the resistance of the brass button to pitting is part of the puzzle.

You can design the heat exchanger with a capacity such that the additional efficiency of the coating is not required. I suspect that is what Fluidyne is doing. The radiator/heat exhanger is not the limit. But inside the combustion volume may be another matter.

 

[Joe Warren]

Its hard to be more qualified than to be an ME that has been building and testing them for over 40 years. The dyno test should be welcomed . If it is so wont the dyno also confirm it? Everyone has the right to run what they choose but dont pass it off unless you have real proof. The dyno provides true data that should be able to be reproduced from shop to shop. If lap times drop you or I dont indeed know it was the buttons that did it if you did then could you say if they ran slower it too was the result of the buttons?A race is not a controlled environment point blank. If you dont respect the scientific method then fine. Thats what separates engineers from other folk they live off math, physics, and testing through the appropriate scientific method. The very reason a 2 cycle forum would not let everyone in - they have no time for people that dont have a basic understanding of whats appropriate in making a claim and whats appropriate in backing that claim. If you think buying a button will make you run like Joe W, buy one thats simple. If you prove it on the dyno everyone will buy one and the debate will be over. I trust that Mr. Allen would have zero reason to lie about what hes tested. Hes not motivated by sales,racing,or anything else but one thing -building the perfect motor. One of the points that were the purpose of this thread was to say aint none of the top tether car guys running 360 brass period. So dont use them as a reference for this choice of head button material. Then someone said well they run different motors than we do so what they run is irrelevant but Jim wasnt the one that made the reference hes the one thats saying the reference is inappropriate coz that aint what they run. If the charge of irrelevancy was true doesnt it also apply to the #360 brass being supposedly used by the tether car guys?????? Just something to think about.

I was at the Huntsville Alabama IMPBA Nats 10 years ago taking a leak in the mens room......... Now that indoor urinal was quite a ways from the lake....... & many know how far that is.... I heard Stan simpsons 40 Hydro when it Launched and came back down the front stretch WAILING like a high strung 20 Engine and Running many mph faster than anything else on the lake. Even Florida boater Lupe Perez was Laughing saying listen to that Thing...... Many Very Fast boaters were in attendance... It was the introduction to the T Port Liner Modfication. We Did Not know WHAT IT WAS that day cause they were not advertising it till race time... But I`am sure Stan Jr (driver of that boat) and Andy Brown someone that Stan Sr worked closely were saying Holy Sxit........... We have found something..... Later it was put into Production on many liner and piston mods to increase fuel flow & the Brass Head Button will be No Different when the mfgers see the added performance on Marine engines..

 

[hugh hargett]

Detonation is a thing that should be stopped firstly. The man said radiators are painted black.......... anyway go ahead and run the 360 if youre convinced by what has been proven here.Im not and as a aerospace engineer how many test you run in the lab versus out in the field. You also should have a high regard for forming a hypothesis and testing it in a lab controllable enviroment. gotta make the analogies simplistic or you get acused of being "too technical" by the way the law supports both are charges not just yours a black t is hotter to wear!!!!!!!!!!! a better absorber is a better emitter if the word emits means what I think it does that means it will put out more heat as well.Basically the heat will travel through black faster that also means it trasnfers the heat to something on the other side faster. Comparing a piston head to a radiator is the analogy you better be wary of <_< .

Joe W anything they found that worked in the field they re proved on a dyno before producing it and claiming it to sell you can bet that Im not saying theres no improvement im saying can you verify it on a dyno with a box new motor and one with just the addition of you 360 brass button?? Not like someone has a personal vendetta against

360 brass.

TN being an engineer doesnt mean that you or I cant be wrong so why you made that assumption I dont know. Some of the smartest people I know dont even have a full high school diploma but when you can test it you do thats proper! Besides between You Jim and me Jims the only one thats engineering discipline deals with specifically with what were talking about. I havent been exposed to alot of metallurgy in my discipline and hes been building even before you were an engineer. Even Mr Allen wouldnt go around verified dyno results!Just send a new motor with the buttons so we will all know whats truly what. Even though its been already tested. If the dyno showed no improvement in hp would you still believe in them??? just curious.

Question - in the quest for the fastest motor is detonation something you live with?not being a smarty really curious. Coz all ive heard of is band aids around it not stopping it . What it seems to point to is if all the fuel is bunt off theres no residual fuel to support the knock? whats the theory?

 

[Terry Keeley]

The ones I have are more of a dark brown. Ever try to get one to detonate......

By the time I got to using this head I was at the end of my KABOOM building.

It looks like a black anodizing to me.

Dyed black hard anodize, was used to help keep heat in the chamber at a time when we (most) hadn't discovered regulating the water.

Most gains we saw was on the K&B O/B's that ran way too cool being attached to that heat sink lower unit.

 

[Jeff Lutz]

Its hard to be more qualified than to be an ME that has been building and testing them for over 40 years. The dyno test should be welcomed . If it is so wont the dyno also confirm it? Everyone has the right to run what they choose but dont pass it off unless you have real proof. The dyno provides true data that should be able to be reproduced from shop to shop. If lap times drop you or I dont indeed know it was the buttons that did it if you did then could you say if they ran slower it too was the result of the buttons?A race is not a controlled environment point blank. If you dont respect the scientific method then fine. Thats what separates engineers from other folk they live off math, physics, and testing through the appropriate scientific method. The very reason a 2 cycle forum would not let everyone in - they have no time for people that dont have a basic understanding of whats appropriate in making a claim and whats appropriate in backing that claim. If you think buying a button will make you run like Joe W, buy one thats simple. If you prove it on the dyno everyone will buy one and the debate will be over. I trust that Mr. Allen would have zero reason to lie about what hes tested. Hes not motivated by sales,racing,or anything else but one thing -building the perfect motor. One of the points that were the purpose of this thread was to say aint none of the top tether car guys running 360 brass period. So dont use them as a reference for this choice of head button material. Then someone said well they run different motors than we do so what they run is irrelevant but Jim wasnt the one that made the reference hes the one thats saying the reference is inappropriate coz that aint what they run. If the charge of irrelevancy was true doesnt it also apply to the #360 brass being supposedly used by the tether car guys?????? Just something to think about.

I was at the Huntsville Alabama IMPBA Nats 10 years ago taking a leak in the mens room......... Now that indoor urinal was quite a ways from the lake....... & many know how far that is.... I heard Stan simpsons 40 Hydro when it Launched and came back down the front stretch WAILING like a high strung 20 Engine and Running many mph faster than anything else on the lake. Even Florida boater Lupe Perez was Laughing saying listen to that Thing...... Many Very Fast boaters were in attendance... It was the introduction to the T Port Liner Modfication. We Did Not know WHAT IT WAS that day cause they were not advertising it till race time... But I`am sure Stan Jr (driver of that boat) and Andy Brown someone that Stan Sr worked closely were saying Holy Sxit........... We have found something..... Later it was put into Production on many liner and piston mods to increase fuel flow & the Brass Head Button will be No Different when the mfgers see the added performance on Marine engines..

You think that is when t ports were first done? What if I told you AT Wright was doing that for people in 1990? Or, what if I told you it had been done in controlling speed 40 years ago? By the way,I don't want my twin to go any faster,it is setup exactly how I want it. Also, on Stan's bluehead 45 (I heard a rumor there was porting done that you did not mention).I guess they did not let all the cat out of the bag!

 

[Joe Warren]

Its hard to be more qualified than to be an ME that has been building and testing them for over 40 years. The dyno test should be welcomed . If it is so wont the dyno also confirm it? Everyone has the right to run what they choose but dont pass it off unless you have real proof. The dyno provides true data that should be able to be reproduced from shop to shop. If lap times drop you or I dont indeed know it was the buttons that did it if you did then could you say if they ran slower it too was the result of the buttons?A race is not a controlled environment point blank. If you dont respect the scientific method then fine. Thats what separates engineers from other folk they live off math, physics, and testing through the appropriate scientific method. The very reason a 2 cycle forum would not let everyone in - they have no time for people that dont have a basic understanding of whats appropriate in making a claim and whats appropriate in backing that claim. If you think buying a button will make you run like Joe W, buy one thats simple. If you prove it on the dyno everyone will buy one and the debate will be over. I trust that Mr. Allen would have zero reason to lie about what hes tested. Hes not motivated by sales,racing,or anything else but one thing -building the perfect motor. One of the points that were the purpose of this thread was to say aint none of the top tether car guys running 360 brass period. So dont use them as a reference for this choice of head button material. Then someone said well they run different motors than we do so what they run is irrelevant but Jim wasnt the one that made the reference hes the one thats saying the reference is inappropriate coz that aint what they run. If the charge of irrelevancy was true doesnt it also apply to the #360 brass being supposedly used by the tether car guys?????? Just something to think about.

I was at the Huntsville Alabama IMPBA Nats 10 years ago taking a leak in the mens room......... Now that indoor urinal was quite a ways from the lake....... & many know how far that is.... I heard Stan simpsons 40 Hydro when it Launched and came back down the front stretch WAILING like a high strung 20 Engine and Running many mph faster than anything else on the lake. Even Florida boater Lupe Perez was Laughing saying listen to that Thing...... Many Very Fast boaters were in attendance... It was the introduction to the T Port Liner Modfication. We Did Not know WHAT IT WAS that day cause they were not advertising it till race time... But I`am sure Stan Jr (driver of that boat) and Andy Brown someone that Stan Sr worked closely were saying Holy Sxit........... We have found something..... Later it was put into Production on many liner and piston mods to increase fuel flow & the Brass Head Button will be No Different when the mfgers see the added performance on Marine engines..

You think that is when t ports were first done? What if I told you AT Wright was doing that for people in 1990? Or, what if I told you it had been done in controlling speed 40 years ago? By the way,I don't want my twin to go any faster,it is setup exactly how I want it. Also, on Stan's bluehead 45 (I heard a rumor there was porting done that you did not mention).I guess they did not let all the cat out of the bag!

Good Point & neither will I ..........

 

[hugh hargett]

".....when we (most) hadn't discovered regulating the water........" goes right back to what Jim alluded to when he asked charles on page 1 a rhetorical question about regulating the water. So when you found out about regulating the water did you remove the anodized buttons etc etc etc.... a bunch of unkowns and real world variables apply from boat to boat. Strap it up in a dyno and eliminate all that thats the point. One Im sure youll all be glad Im done with.

Still love yas anyway :wub:

Later!

ill be analyzing those videos for rpm dont lay music on top of it to be stealth. **** I may have just found a way to find truth in just a you tube video. Andy on the other thread when you said it "sounds like 100" a light bulb came on. THANK YOU .

Hugh

 

[tnrcboatracer]

I don't have the time or desire to test to the nth degree. Empirical results are good enough for me. The hypothesis testing you refer to is more on the Scientist side. I take the science and apply it, I don't need to intimately know all of the whys for the level I am comfortable with . I can appreciate theoretical physics, but I can't even begin to understand the details of it. Lab testing is great for understanding the details as to the whys, but there are many variables in the real world that can affect the results. For example, the dyno is a far more constant load than is applied to a boat on the water.

BTW, I have done some real; world dyno testing in the past few years. Can't tell you the number of times that we Identirified an issue with the dyno only to have the designers say it wouldn't be an issue in the real worls. Seems that 200hrs of WOT at max load is not indicative of the real world.application

Thanks for the info Terry. I think that the hard anodize may be the enswer. The black dye just confused the issue. The common thread between your buttons and the OS Max is the anodizing. The hard anodizing impedes the heat flow into the aluminum.

Cutting back the water can raise the temp in general, but the local hot spots will still exist.

 

[Andy Brown]

Its hard to be more qualified than to be an ME that has been building and testing them for over 40 years. The dyno test should be welcomed . If it is so wont the dyno also confirm it? Everyone has the right to run what they choose but dont pass it off unless you have real proof. The dyno provides true data that should be able to be reproduced from shop to shop. If lap times drop you or I dont indeed know it was the buttons that did it if you did then could you say if they ran slower it too was the result of the buttons?A race is not a controlled environment point blank. If you dont respect the scientific method then fine. Thats what separates engineers from other folk they live off math, physics, and testing through the appropriate scientific method. The very reason a 2 cycle forum would not let everyone in - they have no time for people that dont have a basic understanding of whats appropriate in making a claim and whats appropriate in backing that claim. If you think buying a button will make you run like Joe W, buy one thats simple. If you prove it on the dyno everyone will buy one and the debate will be over. I trust that Mr. Allen would have zero reason to lie about what hes tested. Hes not motivated by sales,racing,or anything else but one thing -building the perfect motor. One of the points that were the purpose of this thread was to say aint none of the top tether car guys running 360 brass period. So dont use them as a reference for this choice of head button material. Then someone said well they run different motors than we do so what they run is irrelevant but Jim wasnt the one that made the reference hes the one thats saying the reference is inappropriate coz that aint what they run. If the charge of irrelevancy was true doesnt it also apply to the #360 brass being supposedly used by the tether car guys?????? Just something to think about.

I was at the Huntsville Alabama IMPBA Nats 10 years ago taking a leak in the mens room......... Now that indoor urinal was quite a ways from the lake....... & many know how far that is.... I heard Stan simpsons 40 Hydro when it Launched and came back down the front stretch WAILING like a high strung 20 Engine and Running many mph faster than anything else on the lake. Even Florida boater Lupe Perez was Laughing saying listen to that Thing...... Many Very Fast boaters were in attendance... It was the introduction to the T Port Liner Modfication. We Did Not know WHAT IT WAS that day cause they were not advertising it till race time... But I`am sure Stan Jr (driver of that boat) and Andy Brown someone that Stan Sr worked closely were saying Holy Sxit........... We have found something..... Later it was put into Production on many liner and piston mods to increase fuel flow & the Brass Head Button will be No Different when the mfgers see the added performance on Marine engines..

You think that is when t ports were first done? What if I told you AT Wright was doing that for people in 1990? Or, what if I told you it had been done in controlling speed 40 years ago? By the way,I don't want my twin to go any faster,it is setup exactly how I want it. Also, on Stan's bluehead 45 (I heard a rumor there was porting done that you did not mention).I guess they did not let all the cat out of the bag!

Actually CMB had some variations of the T port in their 21 Valvola 20+ years ago. Yes, CMB had a drum valve 21 in the mid 80's. I used them with great success and they would run with the Nova's of the day. CMB had an 85 engine that also had piston ports in the late 1980's. They where actualy what you might call "P" ports. That is where AT Wight and I both picked up on it....or least started doing it. I had also seen it in a .15 speed engine in the 1970's as I'm sure others did too. I'm sure it wasn't a CMB original idea. I cut "P' ports into lots of engines (Picco, Rossi, OPS, K&B....) Later I moved the slot to the center of the port, hence "T" port. On the other hand I have run very fast without piston ports. (119 mph with a Picco .77 back in 1998 @ Huntsville). Another CMB historical note!... CMB produced a drum valve .90 way back in 1982.

 

[Joe Warren]

".....when we (most) hadn't discovered regulating the water........" goes right back to what Jim alluded to when he asked charles on page 1 a rhetorical question about regulating the water. So when you found out about regulating the water did you remove the anodized buttons etc etc etc.... a bunch of unkowns and real world variables apply from boat to boat. Strap it up in a dyno and eliminate all that thats the point. One Im sure youll all be glad Im done with.

Still love yas anyway :wub:

Later!

ill be analyzing those videos for rpm dont lay music on top of it to be stealth. **** I may have just found a way to find truth in just a you tube video. Andy on the other thread when you said it "sounds like 100" a light bulb came on. THANK YOU .

Hugh

Well I think everyone has regulated water on Nitro Marine engines for 25 plus years. RC Boat .com done a article on this topic years ago. All lakes and water contents are nowhere near the same, then you have the change of Seasons and the ever Changing Air Quality. There is NO DOUBT there are water density changes with Water temp changes, This effects the drag on the boat & the efficiency of the prop you have selected for the day. choking (restricting) the water is a helpful tool. But it dont fix the problem. & what do you think you are doing when you do restrict the water? You are allowing normal combustion process to Heat the Prechamber in the head formost. This is a Bigger deal on engines that are Overcooling from the mfgers. I have seen many airplane engines too that have been run hard that Sizzled the castor into the Air cooling head. You can bet they were way hotter than anything we are running currently on head & prechamber temps