1/2 mill and other stuff

[Michael Costanzo]

No matter what we all have to run the same course so why does 5 or three bouys mean so much

Maybe im wrong in my thinking... but heres what i come up with...

Orange line being boat 1 in lane 1..

Black line being boat 2 in lane 2..

3 Bouy course: Boat 1 goes into the turn making a smooth gradual turn, while Boat 2 sees an opening inside between the bouys and makes a move.

5 Bouy course: Boat 1 goes into the turn making a smooth gradual turn around all 5 bouys, while Boat 2 stays outside because theres no door opened between the bouys to try making a move inside without cutting 2 bouys.

Again this is just my thinking on the 3 vs 5 bouy course. I have not run on a 5 bouy course, but am looking forward to it in November at the Gas Nats to see just how smoother it is.

YOU HIT THE NAIL RIGHT RIGHT ON THE HEAD! i tried to say this about 10 times but you got it right with the diagram! thank you sir!!

 

[Michael Costanzo]

So the inside guy can't square the turn but the outside guy can? That makes a lot of sense.
The whole course will be lined with bouys before you know it. It will still only keep the inside guy honest. I'd be willing to bet 90% of racers can't run an arc anyway. Always drifting in or out, so what is the big deal on squaring a turn? Besides, if I am on the outside then I hang right off the guy no matter how he turns. We have all drifted out and cut in to sucker people in. I won't name anybody but a very respected member taught me this the hard way.

As for cutting the course in mill time. BULL! The guy cutting across the course will never yield to the guy coming down the back stretch and the CD will not do a thing. So what if he gets DQ'ed. He F'ed me in the process. And how it will elimante problems at the start I have no clue because everybody will still have the same objective. "Be the first across the line" Full mill, 3/4 mill, 1/2 mill , 1/4 mill, I don't care. IT"S A RACE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

Put up some concrete bouys and get the computerized score keeping system in place and run by overall time like the cars and you solve your problems. But that just ain't racing is it?

hey preston, that is what curticy and sportsmanship is all about! i have raced over 20 years and if i or my pitman sees aboat coming you pay attention and either yeild or turn more to avoid boat. do not know who you race with but i have seen guys penilized for poor miilling.get with it,it is racing! you will always have so-so driver,good drivers, and beginers,it is part of the game,i have have the best drivers of the day push me and they say i am sorry or they say nothing and life goes on. look at a few races and see which have a more exciting start! i can count on 1 hand in 20 years how many crashes i have seen in the mill. close calls do not count except for??

 

[Michael Costanzo]

No matter what we all have to run the same course so why does 5 or three bouys mean so much

Maybe im wrong in my thinking... but heres what i come up with...

Orange line being boat 1 in lane 1..

Black line being boat 2 in lane 2..

3 Bouy course: Boat 1 goes into the turn making a smooth gradual turn, while Boat 2 sees an opening inside between the bouys and makes a move.

5 Bouy course: Boat 1 goes into the turn making a smooth gradual turn around all 5 bouys, while Boat 2 stays outside because theres no door opened between the bouys to try making a move inside without cutting 2 bouys.

Again this is just my thinking on the 3 vs 5 bouy course. I have not run on a 5 bouy course, but am looking forward to it in November at the Gas Nats to see just how smoother it is.

guessed you havre never raced motorcross,contoled mad dashes make for EXCITING STARS! if you are so worried about your super pretty boats leave them on the shore at let the real men race there"race boats"
Will,

What you have drawn up is the difference between two different driving styles. I could easily drive either line, regardless of bouy configuration. I'd probably have to use a tunnel or mono to drive the black line on the three bouy turn (most of them do), and I already drive the orange line (full arc) with my hydros. Adding more bouys isn't going to fix anything. Like Preston Hall said, you can line the entire course with bouys. At best, you are only going to keep the lane one guy honest.

The 30 second clock is a crock of crap. It makes any kind of attempts at getting your rhythm useless, because the 30 second clock kills that as soon as the last boat hits the water. What you have is a hectic scramble for postion and timing as soon as the last boat launches. You might as well say the last boat is the pace boat and not use a clock at all. Just tell everybody that as soon as the last boat hits the water, the next boat that crosses the start/finish line is the lead boat., and watch the splinters fly! It saves a WHOLE HOUR! OOOOOOOOOOO! Stop the presses! We can get in another five, MAYBE six heats in a whole day! Talk about diminishing returns........ That amount of time will be lost again wating for the retrieve boat to pick up all the scrapped boats.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[Michael Costanzo]

By using the half mill & being able to advance the clock to 30 sec; you can save up to an hour or more a day. Thus more heats per day!
Don

I only have limited experience with half mill but i like it. In the end we are 2 orgs. doings a few things different. Wanting the same result. I SAY CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG.......

Half mill is a good way to get all boats on the clock and it helps racers that can not manage the clock. Generally it works very well with slow mill boats. Half mill is a recipe for disaster for fast mill boats. Picture this, two riggers milling at say mid 70s mph. Outside boat ahead of inside boat. All the sudden outside decides to half mill and force the inside boat into an even tigther turn. Not good at all. Mikey, you either turn or stay straight and eat the hole I left you in the water with my Twin. B)

5 pin turns is a good thing. Entrance buoy is a good thing but it should be placed closer to buoy 1 and 6. B)

thats what i mean,either way,that point bouy it out too far.ps, most good rigger drivers are not going to mill at 70 mph,lets be reallistic about that.

 

[Michael Costanzo]

hey guys, sorry for all the consecutive posts,up waayyy past my bed time. this thread will probably go on to break a all time record for posts, but i guess what ever will be, will be and that is the same reason wht this country is so screwed up because everone has a different opinion and that will never change. i will be glad to help out with what ever i can to promote and good wiil,and make OUR hobby better for all. i hope everybody has a great and fun season. no matter what kind of boat they run,be well guy and take care,mike.

 

[Rigged]

i know how to drive a stright line(i drive a pro race car that does 180 mph in the 1/4 mile.

thats like comparing apples to oranges. In a car you are inside, looking straight ahead.. and just trying to keep the car in the groove (i ran 155 through the traps on the first shakedown pass with my street car, and i could take my hand off the wheel in that car if i wanted to and it would drive straight stuck in the groove). RC Boats you are LOOKING at them, going sideways dealing with different types of variables keeping the boat traveling perfectly straight. And then its even worse if the course is slightly offset, and you have no time on the course before your first heat and are not use to the layout.

So just because one can drive a car straight, does not mean one can drive a rc boat straight. Ive seen many who can run a good line by themself, but get 5+ more boats on the water with them and they get nervous and get the shakes its a whole different story.

hi will, yes it is defferent being in a car and different lake have different depth perseption. but if the course is set up the same len/with, lane 1 is still lane 1 and lane 5 is

still lane 5.and yes when my car goes straight i can do the same but when it gets loose?? ps i go 155 in the 1/8 not the 1/4 BIG DIFFERENCE!!

Yeah.... in probably a 2000lbs car with a 4-link and 15" wire tires. Try it at 3200lbs on stock suspension and a tiny 28x10.5 tire in a car that still had A/C

 

[Brad Christy]

Michael,

I'm not sure what you mean by "a cut", but in IMPBA, you get a 50 pt dedudtion for cutting one bouy, and a one lap penalty for cutting three consecutive bouys. If a driver runds their boat inside the course, but gets it outside the bouys in time without causing any trouble to another driver, there is no infraction. You said a driver will recieve "a cut" for dirving inside the course. If I understand your comment correctly, this means the driver will recieve some sort of penalty for being inside the bouy line, even if a bouy is never cut. Yes? No?

I have seen MANY close and exciting starts, none of which involved what I would refer to as a "mad dash". I have no problem throwing my boats out there, at risk of damage, as long as rational minded racing is the end goal. I don't care what anybody says, the race is on whenever that 30 second clock is started. When that clock drops to 30, some people get serious tunnel vision and forget there are five other boats out there with them. The only thing they can think of is getting to the starting line on time. I agree with Don F. I will never be in a race that involves the 30 second clock, because I will never say "yes" when asked if I'm ready, even if I am, because somebody else won't be, but they'll say they are (for whatever reason) and then they'll take me out trying to make up for it. It's not about "my pretty little boats", either. It's about not ruining my weekend by having somebody else trash my boats to the point my racing is over.

Some people get it. Some people think because they've been racing WHATEVER for XX years they know what's going on.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[Scott Norris]

Haven't raced a 5 bouy turn yet but I don't think I would have any problem with it. I like the Entrance bouy because it has MANY MANY times in racing Mono's kept people honest approaching the turn bouys. I can't count how many times someone has tried to pass me on the inside down the back stretch while I was in lane 1. I don't understand the stop watch thing and not sure I want to.

 

[P THOMAS]

No matter what we all have to run the same course so why does 5 or three bouys mean so much

Maybe im wrong in my thinking... but heres what i come up with...

Orange line being boat 1 in lane 1..

Black line being boat 2 in lane 2..

3 Bouy course: Boat 1 goes into the turn making a smooth gradual turn, while Boat 2 sees an opening inside between the bouys and makes a move.

5 Bouy course: Boat 1 goes into the turn making a smooth gradual turn around all 5 bouys, while Boat 2 stays outside because theres no door opened between the bouys to try making a move inside without cutting 2 bouys.

Again this is just my thinking on the 3 vs 5 bouy course. I have not run on a 5 bouy course, but am looking forward to it in November at the Gas Nats to see just how smoother it is.

"OUT OF ROUND" ! if you are tight in lane 1 and keep it really tight you are going to slam into that MIDDLE BOUY, do not care how good of a driver you are.

The gas Nats is going to use 5 bouy turns? Ok i guess but is it not a IMPBA race.

OUT OF ROUND" ! if you are tight in lane 1 and keep it really tight you are going to slam into that MIDDLE BOUY, do not care how good of a driver you are.

Less experienced drivers would make squared off turns like that.

The 5 bouy turns would remind someone that turning as soon as you pass bouy one is going to ge a cut bouy fast.

The boats we race now days are capable of turning inside the bouy line.

So someone that just runs around a practice lake with no bouys and goes to the race and crashes into bouys racing and cutting off boats in the turns is driver error, not course design.

Main reason for a three bouy turn is less maintince of the bouys.

 

[Terry Keeley]

Just curious, how do you lay out the extra 2 buoys? Do you need a pole in the center? :blink:

 

[Bob Nauss]

I raced a 5 buoy course for the first time at the last Winter Nats. I liked it. The inside people cornered more smoothly. Plus one small advantage of 5 buoys is there is less room for people to cut through.

I also liked the 1 lap penalty per buoy cut. I think it made people try harder to not cut any in the first place.

 

[Don Ferrette]

"OUT OF ROUND" ! if you are tight in lane 1 and keep it really tight you are going to slam into that MIDDLE BOUY, do not care how good of a driver you are.

Wrong. Those buoys follow the same arc line created by the three. Been there, done that. Drive a clean line and you're fine.

The gas Nats is going to use 5 bouy turns? Ok i guess but is it not a IMPBA race.

Wrong again. They can do it if it is listed on the flyer.

Less experienced drivers would make squared off turns like that.

Not even going to touch that one. LOL!!!

The 5 bouy turns would remind someone that turning as soon as you pass bouy one is going to ge a cut bouy fast.The boats we race now days are capable of turning inside the bouy line.

Wrong again. See "out of round"

So someone that just runs around a practice lake with no bouys and goes to the race and crashes into bouys racing and cutting off boats in the turns is driver error, not course design.

That's too funny as it won't matter how many buoys are out there.
Phil have your ever raced on a 5 buoy turn? :unsure:

 

[darby96]

Just curious, how do you lay out the extra 2 buoys? Do you need a pole in the center? :blink:

Yes you have it right you set a pole at the end of the straight away and with a measured line you arc and drop the buoys at their placement.

Isn't that the way you set the 3 buoy turn. This is why it becomes a perfect arc for a driver to turn. We run 330' straights with 39.5' radius turns.

The only time we run 3 buoy turn is when the course is long and narrow thus 15' radius turns.

Dave B

 

[BDM Racing]

No matter what we all have to run the same course so why does 5 or three bouys mean so much

Maybe im wrong in my thinking... but heres what i come up with...

Orange line being boat 1 in lane 1..

Black line being boat 2 in lane 2..

3 Bouy course: Boat 1 goes into the turn making a smooth gradual turn, while Boat 2 sees an opening inside between the bouys and makes a move.

5 Bouy course: Boat 1 goes into the turn making a smooth gradual turn around all 5 bouys, while Boat 2 stays outside because theres no door opened between the bouys to try making a move inside without cutting 2 bouys.

Again this is just my thinking on the 3 vs 5 bouy course. I have not run on a 5 bouy course, but am looking forward to it in November at the Gas Nats to see just how smoother it is.

"OUT OF ROUND" ! if you are tight in lane 1 and keep it really tight you are going to slam into that MIDDLE BOUY, do not care how good of a driver you are.

The gas Nats is going to use 5 bouy turns? Ok i guess but is it not a IMPBA race.

OUT OF ROUND" ! if you are tight in lane 1 and keep it really tight you are going to slam into that MIDDLE BOUY, do not care how good of a driver you are.

Less experienced drivers would make squared off turns like that.

The 5 bouy turns would remind someone that turning as soon as you pass bouy one is going to ge a cut bouy fast.

The boats we race now days are capable of turning inside the bouy line.

So someone that just runs around a practice lake with no bouys and goes to the race and crashes into bouys racing and cutting off boats in the turns is driver error, not course design.

Main reason for a three bouy turn is less maintince of the bouys.

The gas Nats is going to use 5 bouy turns? Ok i guess but is it not a IMPBA race.

Phil

I read Dons response and agree, there is no announcement they plan on a 5 bouy turn for the gas nats. in LA.

But earlier in this year they did have a naba race and used a 5 bouy turn. I did not find it diffacult drive around, just a small driving adaption for me . I have no idea if this will happen this year at the gas nats. but will rely on what Don stated.

The flyer also does not offer XLS class

Bob M

 

[DON MAHER]

On the saving time thing, advancing the clock can be done any time during the 2 min. start time. This can be done on a full mill, 1/2 mill or whatever mill. Saving just 30sec. a heat will allow more heats per day or get maybe an hour head start for the trip home. We have been doing this for years here in dist. 19 namba without any problems to the best of my knowledge. And yes, some of the time someone will not want to advance the clock for whatever reason, and that is good also. I just know that you can time the start from anywere on the course, even if you launch just before the 30sec. clock. Its called practice!!!

Don

 

[Rokieboater]

On the saving time thing, advancing the clock can be done any time during the 2 min. start time. This can be done on a full mill, 1/2 mill or whatever mill. Saving just 30sec. a heat will allow more heats per day or get maybe an hour head start for the trip home. We have been doing this for years here in dist. 19 namba without any problems to the best of my knowledge. And yes, some of the time someone will not want to advance the clock for whatever reason, and that is good also. I just know that you can time the start from anywere on the course, even if you launch just before the 30sec. clock. Its called practice!!!
Don

Anywhere on the course at any time as long as you use the throttle control. :blink:

Robert

 

[P THOMAS]

"OUT OF ROUND" ! if you are tight in lane 1 and keep it really tight you are going to slam into that MIDDLE BOUY, do not care how good of a driver you are.

Wrong. Those buoys follow the same arc line created by the three. Been there, done that. Drive a clean line and you're fine.

The gas Nats is going to use 5 bouy turns? Ok i guess but is it not a IMPBA race.

Wrong again. They can do it if it is listed on the flyer.

Less experienced drivers would make squared off turns like that.

Not even going to touch that one. LOL!!!

The 5 bouy turns would remind someone that turning as soon as you pass bouy one is going to ge a cut bouy fast.The boats we race now days are capable of turning inside the bouy line.

Wrong again. See "out of round"

So someone that just runs around a practice lake with no bouys and goes to the race and crashes into bouys racing and cutting off boats in the turns is driver error, not course design.

That's too funny as it won't matter how many buoys are out there.
Phil have your ever raced on a 5 buoy turn? :unsure:

No I dont think so, but it would make people drive a better line thru the turns.

IM not trying to be right or wrong just my thoughts on the course and how it could be better with 5 bouys.

 

[Don Ferrette]

No I dont think so, but it would make people drive a better line thru the turns.

Exactly my friend. B)

 

[Tom Foley]

Too much talk , lets just race . Anyone can get used to anything in time , all drivers are of different skill levels on the same course at the same time , it's going to be mahem by design . I have been racing for a long time but do not consider myself a very good driver , just average like most of us ..can't wait for the Tampa race ..some new to me hardware will be on the water

 

[Don Ferrette]

Too much talk , lets just race . Anyone can get used to anything in time , all drivers are of different skill levels on the same course at the same time , it's going to be mahem by design . I have been racing for a long time but do not consider myself a very good driver , just average like most of us ..can't wait for the Tampa race ..some new to me hardware will be on the water

Well all I'll say is this-

With 1/2, 3/4 or whatever you want to call it a boat that has chosen to mill full course is supposed to have the right of way correct?? In all my years of racing I personally have never seen that be the case. What I have seen (and had to break up) were the many ensuing arguments over that not happening. Been there, dealt with that, no offense but no thanks. :huh: