Is that the Fat lady singing ?

With the release of the new CMB 21 's priced at $400 plus how long

do you think it will be before the Fat Lady starts singing ?

Add collet , header and have someone mod it and you are looking at $500 for a 21 engine .

I can see more and more people switching to gas all the time simply because of cost.

It appears that the price for a good gas motor continues to drop while nitro motors just keep going up , add fuel costs with that and it is not hard to see why so many are switching to gas.

You can now buy two Zenoahs for the price of one 3.5 nitro engine , is it just me or is there something wrong here ?

I understand production cost especially when a manufacture brings out a new product but did CMB really need to bring out a new motor so soon and did there tooling changes really warant an increase in price ?

Or should they have run production for a few more years made a profit and maybe slowly lowered the price for there engines ?

How long has the Greenhead 67 been in production has the prcie ever dropped ?

Why is it that OPS can offer engines of the same quality (material and craftmenship ) with such a difference in price ?

I believe it was Preston who said the Fat Lady was already singing , maybe he was right.

Please keep this civil it is not a bash against anyone or any manufacturer just an observation of what is going on with nitro racing .

What we really need is more manufactures and some healthy competition .

Tim K

Mcgraws site says the newest Nova Rossi is now in stock at $340.00. In my opinion the Nova Rossi has proven itself over and over again. Properly broken in (takes almost a gallon of fuel and a load of patience) the p&s fit is incredible. Although replacement parts like bearings and p&s are expensive they tend to last that much longer than the competitors. I won't try to blow a bunch of wind about 70-80 plus stock out of the box. However, if you have a well set-up and good running .21 rigger. The Nova Rossi will have no problem getting you in the 65-70mph range without any mods at all. Not too shabby if you ask me.

With the Nova Rossi there is great gains in getting the pipe and engine temps correct. Not alot of extra cost there and the 70mph plus is not out of the question. Properly maintained the p&s will more than likely go 2-3 years and the bearings are up to you how long they'll last. I can't speak for all of the IMPBA districts, but within 500 miles from here, a .21 rigger running anywhere near 70 is one of the fastest at the lake.

Once again "Active" Ron

no way is gas cheaper.....

zen260= about 250, mods cost me $364 total $614 you could easily spend a lot more! nova rossi $340 mods (why needed really) $100 total maybe $440

nitro tuned pipe 40-50, gas tuned pipe 100- 130!!!

my gas boat i'm building is the most expensive boat i ever built by a large margin.

UUMMMMMMMM HMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!

looks like the price pain threshold is being tickled by CMB. I say tickled because most of boating community will grin and bear it. I have brought up the price of our hobby sever times only to be argued down that "you gotta pay to play." If you want to go fast you gotta pay.

Problem is, if the price gets out of reach for newcommers, we'll be playing alone. how fun is that?

An interesting trend is that as the gas engine mods become more exotic and people push the engines and boats harder, less and less boats are finishing heats. I've seen many a gas heat where 6 or more boats start and only one or two finish. And as people learn that some of the myths about nitro aren't true, we're seeing a resurgance of nitro. This already started with .15-.18 monos and .21 tunnels in our club and during the off season this winter at least two more members have acquired sport 40 hydros. Also, remember that there are lots of people buying small RTR boats such as the Miss Vegas.

The bottom line is it's all good and people should run what they enjoy.

Dan_Cousin said:

UUMMMMMMMM HMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!
looks like the price pain threshold is being tickled by CMB. I say tickled because most of boating community will grin and bear it. I have brought up the price of our hobby sever times only to be argued down that "you gotta pay to play." If you want to go fast you gotta pay.

Click to expand...

Yup, I've been told the same thing. So far, I'm pretty happy with the results from my not so fast boats.

Problem is, if the price gets out of reach for newcommers, we'll be playing alone. how fun is that?

Click to expand...

Not at all fun. That's why there's a discussion proposal for updating the IMPBA RTR rules. The RTR boats provide one alternative to the high costs of some engines. They also happen to be lots of fun.

I'd also have to say that gas is way more expensive to build than Nitro.

Expecially if you want to go fast.

Although I have to agree that the little motor prices have been rising, so is the cost of meterials.

I'd bet the meterial costs have more than doubled in the last 2 years.The metals market is extremly unstable right now.Very unpredictable.

I know that the O/Ss are cheap,but there tolerances aren't the same as the upper end motors either. Nor do they have much of a developement process.

Soon we'll see the new Macs and added competition.That will be great for the hobby.

So,you really want to go fast with gas?

Price the Hybrids.

I'm building a gas outboard with a J&G hemi billit powerhead right now.

Between the cost of the motor,lower,and a SPP exhaust,I can buy 3+ nitro hybrid O/Bs.

Than do you want to run in the front of the pack in gas hydro?

Have you priced the new Quickdraws.$1100 for a moded one with mounts.

Also look at the prices of gas props.Not cheap either.

The only thing thats cheaper is the fuel to put in the tank.

There's plenty of water out there for both Gas & Nitro.

I guess that you haven't seen the prices on .12's either as some of the hot ones are up in the $400.00 range now! It makes me wonder what the A/A Pro engines are going to cost when they come out.

I am afraid that the higher costs are going to drive out those of us that don't have a bottomless wallet. I got out of racing R/C trucks for the same reason. You weren't competitive unless you had the hot setup of the week.

Ron Olson said:

I guess that you haven't seen the prices on .12's either as some of the hot ones are up in the $400.00 range now! It makes me wonder what the A/A Pro engines are going to cost when they come out.I am afraid that the higher costs are going to drive out those of us that don't have a bottomless wallet. I got out of racing R/C trucks for the same reason. You weren't competitive unless you had the hot setup of the week.

Click to expand...

I hear you Ron. At one time I had the latest and greatest of everything. Now that my girls are getting older, with one in competitive soccer and the other in dance and house league soccer. I've definately had to scale down. Not only because of the expense but the time left for myself to play. Thus the reason for building a used Sp .40 instead of new. Now I have something to prove to myself. Do you need the latest and greatest to win races? We'll see...

Ron

TomMoorehouse said:

no way is gas cheaper.....
zen260= about 250, mods cost me $364 total $614 you could easily spend a lot more! nova rossi $340 mods (why needed really) $100 total maybe $440

nitro tuned pipe 40-50, gas tuned pipe 100- 130!!!

my gas boat i'm building is the most expensive boat i ever built by a large margin.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure who is quoting your engine prices Tom but you are way off. We can purchase brand new Zenoah 260's for $200.00 and the mod prices you quote are way off, can be done for half that. Call SS Enterprises and get a quote, you won't be sorry. Who ever you are dealing with is hosing you. Steve Stafiej phone # (734) 464-9560 or email him at [email protected]. I am not slamming anyone just getting the cheap word out for everyone interested in a fair price for a great gas engine. I have 6 SS full mod motors and will never buy from anyone else and Steve is a great guy.

.

Great response so far guy's and civil :lol: .

I have to agree with Ron J that at $340 the Nova will be very hard to beat in price and on the water and no Ron you don't need the latest and greatest to win races just finish your heats my friend and you will be fine.

As for the cost of gas compared to nitro that gap is getting closer and closer all the time and if you can do your own engine work you can have a great gas engine for a couple hundred bucks.

I think one of the biggest problems in our hobby is that no one wants to build or make anything for themselves anymore.

When I started if you needed a turn fin you made it yourself , props , I have never paid anyone to do a prop for me and never will .

.

Tim K

Gas is a lot cheaper in the long run. You must factor in gas vs. nitro costs, glow plug at $3.50 each compared to $3.00 a spark plug which will last all year. All three of my gas motors are 4 years old...nothing has been bent or broken.

I run CMB nitro engines. what drives me crazy is the change the externals and internals every 2-3 years. NO PARTS!!!. Don't get me wrong, I love nitro, but the costs are getting crazy.

waltr said:

I'd also have to say that gas is way more expensive to build than Nitro.Expecially if you want to go fast.

Although I have to agree that the little motor prices have been rising, so is the cost of meterials.

I'd bet the meterial costs have more than doubled in the last 2 years.The metals market is extremly unstable right now.Very unpredictable.

I know that the O/Ss are cheap,but there tolerances aren't the same as the upper end motors either. Nor do they have much of a developement process.

Soon we'll see the new Macs and added competition.That will be great for the hobby.

So,you really want to go fast with gas?

Price the Hybrids.

I'm building a gas outboard with a J&G hemi billit powerhead right now.

Between the cost of the motor,lower,and a SPP exhaust,I can buy 3+ nitro hybrid O/Bs.

Than do you want to run in the front of the pack in gas hydro?

Have you priced the new Quickdraws.$1100 for a moded one with mounts.

Also look at the prices of gas props.Not cheap either.

The only thing thats cheaper is the fuel to put in the tank.

There's plenty of water out there for both Gas & Nitro.

Click to expand...

I agree that the price of materials are going up but how is it that OPS manages to maintane thier prices ?

They use quality materials and have very good manufacturing quality and there prices are reasonable.

I know that they need to update their engines but there prices have maintaned even with the rise in material costs.

Tim K

Tim

Tim k said:

Great response so far guy's and civil :lol: .
I have to agree with Ron J that at $340 the Nova will be very hard to beat in price and on the water and no Ron you don't need the latest and greatest to win races just finish your heats my friend and you will be fine.

As for the cost of gas compared to nitro that gap is getting closer and closer all the time and if you can do your own engine work you can have a great gas engine for a couple hundred bucks.

I think one of the biggest problems in our hobby is that no one wants to build or make anything for themselves anymore.

When I started if you needed a turn fin you made it yourself , props , I have never paid anyone to do a prop for me and never will .

.

Tim K

Click to expand...

I believe the new Valvola is still competively priced, compared to the Nova that Bill sells for $340.00. Reason is, many guys add a after market carb to the Nova. No doubt about it........ you dont need the latest and greatest to win races. Racing requires good driving and boat set-up, plus some luck thrown in. Just my 2 cents worth. Richard D

I have a somewhat different perspective than most of you. I have been "out" for 12 years and I can tell you that it is SO MUCH BETTER than it was! 12 years ago no one knew what a rtr was except maby a fiew rc planes. If you wanted to get started in boats you had to spend alot of money and make alot of dumb mestakes before you were competitive. Now days you can go out and buy a rtr for verry little money, decide if you like it. Then if you do you can either build one right the first time with mostly great advice from all around the world, OR you can buy a good used boat with relative confidence from a list of really great guys, again, from all around the world and with a little practice and help from fellow boaters you will be competitive within a fiew races.

Also, (while I'm on my high horse) this crap about having the latest and greatest of everything to win does not wash, Not in boat racing! Yes, it does help durring speed triles, maby. but if you finish 3rd in every heat you will be on or near the podium in nearly all classes. A good example is Bryam Schimmik in Dist. 14 1/8 scale. I saw nothing latest and greatest on his boat. He had (I think) an older OS motor in an even older wood boat. What I did see was a meticulous attention to detail. Engine was always clean, shaft always greased etc. I only remember him not finishing one heat all year. He was nearly always right on the needle, nearly always right on the start, never cut any one off and always seemed to run a perfect line. He also nearly always wone and totally blew everyone away in the points. NOTHING he did had anything to do with having alot of money. THATS WHAT MAKES THIS SPORT FUN to me. Ya, sometimes I'll use the $$ excuse when I loose just to make myself feel better but don't tell that to these young guys cuz it just aint true.

puckstermi said:

TomMoorehouse said:

no way is gas cheaper.....
zen260= about 250, mods cost me $364 total $614 you could easily spend a lot more! nova rossi $340 mods (why needed really) $100 total maybe $440

nitro tuned pipe 40-50, gas tuned pipe 100- 130!!!

my gas boat i'm building is the most expensive boat i ever built by a large margin.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure who is quoting your engine prices Tom but you are way off. We can purchase brand new Zenoah 260's for $200.00 and the mod prices you quote are way off, can be done for half that. Call SS Enterprises and get a quote, you won't be sorry. Who ever you are dealing with is hosing you. Steve Stafiej phone # (734) 464-9560 or email him at [email protected]. I am not slamming anyone just getting the cheap word out for everyone interested in a fair price for a great gas engine. I have 6 SS full mod motors and will never buy from anyone else and Steve is a great guy.

.

Click to expand...

the zen 260 price might have went down since i bought mine.... mods were cc racing. I wanted to go with a respected person that I knew i could trust

Tim k said:

waltr said:

I'd also have to say that gas is way more expensive to build than Nitro.Expecially if you want to go fast.

Although I have to agree that the little motor prices have been rising, so is the cost of meterials.

I'd bet the meterial costs have more than doubled in the last 2 years.The metals market is extremly unstable right now.Very unpredictable.

I know that the O/Ss are cheap,but there tolerances aren't the same as the upper end motors either. Nor do they have much of a developement process.

Soon we'll see the new Macs and added competition.That will be great for the hobby.

So,you really want to go fast with gas?

Price the Hybrids.

I'm building a gas outboard with a J&G hemi billit powerhead right now.

Between the cost of the motor,lower,and a SPP exhaust,I can buy 3+ nitro hybrid O/Bs.

Than do you want to run in the front of the pack in gas hydro?

Have you priced the new Quickdraws.$1100 for a moded one with mounts.

Also look at the prices of gas props.Not cheap either.

The only thing thats cheaper is the fuel to put in the tank.

There's plenty of water out there for both Gas & Nitro.

Click to expand...

I agree that the price of materials are going up but how is it that OPS manages to maintane thier prices ?

They use quality materials and have very good manufacturing quality and there prices are reasonable.

I know that they need to update their engines but there prices have maintaned even with the rise in material costs.

Tim K

Tim

Click to expand...

I don't think you can compare OPS to new engines. OPS is 25 years old design that was great in its time today they are way behid the rest. Price reflects their quality, what you pay is exactly what you get. Being owned by Mantua doesn't help either.

You can also buy .21 engine for $150 and you might even win race or two but more often than not you will lose, higher end engines have more chance.

As far as cost gas vs nitro goes both have pros and cons in my opinion with no clear winner so I'll stick with nitro.

Price of raw material might doubled in recent years but that is not what drove prices to this level but rather market that was able to bear the raising cost of the hobby.

It is interesting that Novarossi makes .61 airplane engine which is a almost a copy of .21 and cost $169. One would think with amount of material and more machining this engine would cost $500-$600.

Recently Novarossi launched new Collari engine with MSRP of $900 EU (now that is being gready), there must have been outrage from prospective dealers forcing Novarossi to change their web page and reduce price as they now sell on Ebay for $735 USD

After watching Novarossi presentation I understand that nothing can come cheap from facory like their, nevertheless they are getting out of control.

I run both gas and nitro. Gas is cheaper to maintain IMO as the fuel is a fraction of the cost of nitro. I have burnt up almost 140$ worth of fuel in the past month or so in my tunnell... I run my own small modding buisness so my mods are all free So that keeps alot of the cost down. Another thing is that i just run a sport tunnell with a OS and im not running modified class where im running high $ CMBs ect. Sport class seems to be pretty cheap to me compared to modified. One thing that suprised me was how much props were for these little nitro tunnells. I paid 46$ for a prop thats not even half the size of my gas props i pay 45-50$ for fully done up... I think alot of the stuff for nitro is over priced honestly. As is alot of the parts for gas boats as well but IMO nitro is worse as the internal parts you have to go through more often, and the price on that is deffinatly higher. I can re-ring my gas engine for 6$ Itll take 80$ to do the same with my OS outboard (P/S). I think one reason is because RC boats are kind of underground compared to say RC nitro cars. Theres not near as many big companys making things for the boats as there are cars. Therefor making the cost higher as its not in bulk and alot of it is custom parts/props ect. So basically i think gas is cheaper in the long run. Maybe not the initial price of getting one goin but after maintaining a gas for a few months then looking at the price i spent alone on nitro in the last 1.5 months.... My gas boat has been cheaper to maintain by far. But i like both equally, so i guess no matter what the cost all of us that love it will find a way to pay for our fix

F.Orlic said:

Tim k said:

waltr said:

I'd also have to say that gas is way more expensive to build than Nitro.Expecially if you want to go fast.

Although I have to agree that the little motor prices have been rising, so is the cost of meterials.

I'd bet the meterial costs have more than doubled in the last 2 years.The metals market is extremly unstable right now.Very unpredictable.

I know that the O/Ss are cheap,but there tolerances aren't the same as the upper end motors either. Nor do they have much of a developement process.

Soon we'll see the new Macs and added competition.That will be great for the hobby.

So,you really want to go fast with gas?

Price the Hybrids.

I'm building a gas outboard with a J&G hemi billit powerhead right now.

Between the cost of the motor,lower,and a SPP exhaust,I can buy 3+ nitro hybrid O/Bs.

Than do you want to run in the front of the pack in gas hydro?

Have you priced the new Quickdraws.$1100 for a moded one with mounts.

Also look at the prices of gas props.Not cheap either.

The only thing thats cheaper is the fuel to put in the tank.

There's plenty of water out there for both Gas & Nitro.

Click to expand...

I agree that the price of materials are going up but how is it that OPS manages to maintane thier prices ?

They use quality materials and have very good manufacturing quality and there prices are reasonable.

I know that they need to update their engines but there prices have maintaned even with the rise in material costs.

Tim K

Tim

Click to expand...

I don't think you can compare OPS to new engines. OPS is 25 years old design that was great in its time today they are way behid the rest. Price reflects their quality, what you pay is exactly what you get. Being owned by Mantua doesn't help either.

You can also buy .21 engine for $150 and you might even win race or two but more often than not you will lose, higher end engines have more chance.

As far as cost gas vs nitro goes both have pros and cons in my opinion with no clear winner so I'll stick with nitro.

Price of raw material might doubled in recent years but that is not what drove prices to this level but rather market that was able to bear the raising cost of the hobby.

It is interesting that Novarossi makes .61 airplane engine which is a almost a copy of .21 and cost $169. One would think with amount of material and more machining this engine would cost $500-$600.

Recently Novarossi launched new Collari engine with MSRP of $900 EU (now that is being gready), there must have been outrage from prospective dealers forcing Novarossi to change their web page and reduce price as they now sell on Ebay for $735 USD

After watching Novarossi presentation I understand that nothing can come cheap from facory like their, nevertheless they are getting out of control.

Click to expand...

You nailed it right on the head Frank.

A Novarossi .61 airplane engine has almost double the amount of material , and most likely a lot smaller production run and they can still sell it for a profit at $169.00.

This is what pisses me off because the .21 is so popular they can ask just about anything they want , even though higher production runs equal greater profits they still jam you with the price .

Tim K

With that being said the funny thing is I can't seem to get enough of running

nitro and will just suck it up like the rest.

I guess once it get's in you blood or eye's you just can't get it out.

Tim K