Phantom & Phantom II

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Hi Andy

Loved your pictures! I really enjoyed seeing all the different paint schemes and layout configurations. I am intrigued by the twin gasser and the staggered layout of the engines. Yes, I have looked at your web site. When I first saw your boats, I said to myself, "now here is some guys trying to do something to reduce parasitic drag".

OK, with that said, the only thing I see that could improve on your boats is the cowling. As I have said before the two kinds of drag that affect an object passing through the air is parasitic and induced. Parasitic is just drag and induced causes lift or negative lift (down force). When the air is split by an object passing through it, it produces pressure. In the case of a pointed or stream lined object the pressure becomes induced drag in the sense of lift or negative lift. This is all good and can be used to your advantage but when you place a recessed area in this high pressure zone, it becomes parasitic drag. Parasitic drag is of no use, it just slows the boat down. Where your cowl is concerned, I really think a smooth contoured design that has no humps and recesses in it would work much better. On the Phantom, the cowl creates negative lift and controls some of the hydrodynamic lift caused by the angle of the sponsons. To remove the cowl on a Phantom (one that is running right) will cause the boat to want to blow over.

Anyway, your boats look really fantastic! Although a very different approach than I am using, non the less quite effective I am sure. If we all used the same approach, there wouldn't be Fords and Chevys, LOL! Joe
Thanks Joe!

Here is a pic of my 1986 .21 Mongoose. The engine was off set to the right and the 180 header and pipe fully cowled. The tank was set on the CG to the left of the engine and under the pipe.

This hull won the Orlando Winternats two years in a row. I won in 1986, My wife won in 1987.
Hi Andy, I really like your design and engineering. Very innovative thinking for the period. This is the kind of stuff that keeps the hobby and sport going forward and continuing to innovate. As time goes on, I think you and I will have a good time swapping ideas!
 
Tom, I don't know who crapped in your Post Toasties but I really don't understand the sarcasm? I don't make posts on this forum to offend anyone but rather share thoughts and information. There are guys that are interested in what I am doing and I try to keep them informed. I have never referred to other outrigger designs as "BOXES", those are your words! Your attacks on me and my boats are unfounded and I don't understand what you intend to gain by doing this! I started racing R/C boats in 1972. I have set 2 NAMBA speed records. I have won more races than I could ever count and have 4 large boxes of trophies to prove it. I really don't think you can educate me on the riggers of racing R/C boats.
Sorry you took it that way Joe . I was just responding around this quote of yours : " All of the outriggers I see being produced today have thrown aerodynamics out the window"

This is simply not true . From what I have seen at the races and racing with them on the race course todays boats(last 15 years or so ) are a **** good balance of basic aerodynamics and hydrodynamics with the strength and resiliency to survive racecourse slop , holes , etc and still make to the finish line heat after heat . I am not attacking you personally or regarding your boats , your accomplishments speak for themselves . Rather it seems you fired the first shot across the bow with that statement dismissing the boats that are actually winning on today's race courses around the country . Seems I've hit a nerve . Sorry Bud !
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Tom, you are a really "STAND UP GUY" and I greatly appreciate it! I may come on a little strong where aerodynamics is concerned but you have got to understand aerodynamics is my work background. Where other people (that design boats) may not look at the subject near as hard as I do, I do not cut their accomplishments short by no means. There is some **** strong running boats out there and that is my challenge "to trying to compete with them". I have thought long and hard about my quest to design a very competitive boat and see aerodynamics as an edge that I may have to accomplish this. Besides, I love pretty boats and aerodynamics lends itself to being very pretty, cool, sexy, etc, LOL!

You sound like a very knowledgeable guy and I look forward to any constructive input you would care to share with me. Thanks! Joe
 
OK Guys, "here we go"! Tonight I am going to start the building phase of the Phantom II .12 boats. Due to a dilemma that I can't get past in my mind, I will be building 2 different .12 boats. One will have rear sponsons with a 1/2" wide ski and one will have no rear sponsons with a 1" wide ski. Here is a hot topic so I look forward to any comments or ideas you guys may have.

I don't know if some of you have ever scratch built a model before but if you haven't and would like to, this build will likely be very helpful to you. I first designed the boat on my drafting table then I overlay the 3 view drawing with tracing paper and traced off all the shapes to build the individual parts. Keep in mind that any parts that angle of curve will be longer or bigger than they appear on the plans. In this case refer to the end view (either front or rear) to determine the true length or height of an angled part. In the case of curved parts, it is best to allow a little more in length or width to allow for the increased area caused by the curve. In some cases such as the chine (angled area on the outside) of a sponson, the angle becomes compound (curves in two or more directions) and it is best to weight until the sponson is partially built (to the point you need the chine part) and trace the area of the chine onto a piece of the appropriate wood. Be sure that your tracing is a little oversize. This will insure that the part does not come up short in some places. Hold on, don't say "well hell the **** thing is too big"! Too big is good. Go ahead and glue it in place leaving a slight over hang all the way around. When it is dry, you can sand off the excess leaving a perfect fit and a perfectly sharp edge. Really listen to me here! Use a sanding block where ever possible. To hand sand the part will insure you will come out with waves, imperfect edges and generally an inaccurate shape.

OK, lets take a minute here and talk about sandpaper. In my opinion there is two types of sandpaper, course and fine. Course paper for removing excess material and shaping and fine for finish work. I use two sanding blocks for course paper, one with 40 grit, "yes 40 grit", and one with 80 grit. The 40 grit will make quick work of excess materials, excess epoxy and shaping blocks, etc. The 80 grit will shape the wood such as sanding perfectly sharp edges, sanding rounds or contours, etc. Next I have one sanding block with 120 grit sandpaper, this block does the finish shape. Now is the time for 320 grit sandpaper in the palm of your hand. I use 320 to put the final smooth finish on the wood. I say use your hand instead of a block because it will allow you to feel slight imperfections and correct them. By starting with the course grits then progressing to the fine grits, your build time will be greatly decreased and your accuracy will go way up.

I have attached pictures of the first stage of my build. After tracing off most of the parts, I use spray adhesive (contact cement) to attach the tracing paper (with the individual parts drawn on it) to the correct thickness and type of wood. Let me back up here for a minute, before attaching the tracing paper, I cut (on my table saw) how many pieces of wood I will need for that particular part, 2 each, 4 each, etc. I cut the wood slightly larger than I will need for the part. After the tracing paper pattern is glued in place (to the top piece of wood) I stack the wood perfectly and hammer a couple of small brads or finishing nails through the pattern. Do this on a piece of steel, if you can, and it will slightly flatten the sharp end of the nail making it where the pieces will not come apart when you are cutting them. Next, I cut the wood parts out on my band saw. You can use a band saw, jig saw, power coping saw, etc. Just make sure that you have a very fine tooth blade (having the most and smallest teeth) in your machine. This will make the job much easier and will curtail splintering. After I have cut the pieces of wood and before removing the brads, I block sand the edges (very carefully) to insure the accuracy of the shape. By sanding the parts before removing the brads, it insures all the parts are identical. They are either "all right or all wrong", but at least they will match from side to side, LOL!

For rectangular parts, I just cut them on my table saw and generally leave them a little too long. Like the saying goes, "I have cut it off 3 times now and it's still to short", LOL! Anyway, look at he pictures and you will see where I am at. I will post more as I do it. Joe
 
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Hello Joe

One ski idea Lets try 3/8" wide ski on both sides of the stuffing tube that way prop can ride a little deeper then ski.That way ski is out of water down home stretch an still help in the turn.

Thxs

Ken
 
Joe,

No ski needed if you solder a piece of flat stock to the stuffing tube.

This will be easy to change the width that you need. Just make sure

The stuffing tube is gradual for the wire drive. Ball bearing strut also.

Just Another Idea,

Mark Sholund
 
Hello Joe

One ski idea Lets try 3/8" wide ski on both sides of the stuffing tube that way prop can ride a little deeper then ski.That way ski is out of water down home stretch an still help in the turn.

Thxs

Ken
Hi Ken, I think what you are saying is run 2 rear sponsons and no ski as the ride surface of the rear sponsons are only 1/2" wide. What may be the final results is to include skis and rear sponsons in the kit and let the end user decide the configuration. Joe
 
Joe,

No ski needed if you solder a piece of flat stock to the stuffing tube.

This will be easy to change the width that you need. Just make sure

The stuffing tube is gradual for the wire drive. Ball bearing strut also.

Just Another Idea,

Mark Sholund
Hi Mark, I think your approach is likely the cleanest of them all. The problem, as I see it, is could the average boat racer get the flat brass straight, true and at the right angle. As for the wire drive, I have placed the motor at an angle that allows for only one very slight bend in the drive shaft tube. Joe
 
Hi Guys! I have been building sponsons this weekend. See the photos below. After cutting out the parts, I double checked them for accuracy. Next I started the assembly by placing the foam inner core on the inside sponson wall. As I have said before, excess epoxy is one of the major causes of weight in a boat. So, I spread the epoxy on the foam with a flexible pallet knife (artist paint mixing tool) and scraped off any excess. I have warned against applying epoxy directly to foam as the foam will absorb a lot of epoxy but in this case, it makes the task much easier. In all other cases only apply epoxy to the wood. I know glued the outer wall to the foam. After both were dry, I carefully sanded the outer edge of both parts and the foam core to insure it all lined up well. I then checked (with a carpenter's square) to make sure the ride surface was at a perfect right angle (90 degrees) to the side walls.

After insuring that the side walls and foam was accurately in place, I added the 1/16" ride surface and the 1/32" outer skin parts. You will notice (in the photos) that the ride surface extends 1/8" beyond the rear of the sponson. This aids in the boat breaking onto plane when launched or at slow speeds.

The next step will be adding the outer chines which will have a foam core and 1/32" plywood skins. You will notice the holes are already located in the sponsons to accept the sponson boom receiver pieces. The receivers will not be installed until the boat is mostly complete. The reason for this is to insure the sponsons are parallel and perpendicular to one another and the hull (tub). At the time I install the boom receivers, I will first gig up the boat to insure all is perfectly in place and that the sponsons have 1/16" tow in. I will then permanently epoxy them in place and replace the boat in the gig to allow the epoxy to harden.

In the next addition to this build, I will complete the sponsons and possibly start on the rear sponsons. Later! Joe
 
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Hi Joe,

It's definitely coming together nicely, and is looking forward to seeing the .21 . Is that a small fillet of filler between the vertical fin sections and top of the sponsons?

Martin
 
Hi Martin, yes it is a small fillet between the vertical fins. For hydrodynamics it is important to have very sharp edges and corners but in aerodynamics, not so much. The top surface of the finished boat will have several rounded corners both inside and outside corners. The fillets are for aesthetics more than anything. Thanks! Joe
 
Update PHANTOM II

Coming soon stay tune Joe called me today.His got great news for all thats interested in building A Phantom II.

Ken Olvis
 
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Hi Guys! I have thought a lot about my upcoming Phantom II kits. I don't think that my original design of the Phantom II will satisfy all of the outrigger racers so I have decided to offer the kits in two versions. The first version will be exactly like the drawing I posted earlier. It will be referred to as the ULTRA KIT. It will utilize my full aerodynamic package from finned sponsons to full length cowl to rear finned sponsons. The second kit will be the ELITE KIT. It will be the same boat as the ULTRA without the full aerodynamic package. The ELITE will have no chines on the front sponsons. It will have only one fin on top of the sponsons (much like the original Phantom). It will have no rear sponsons but rather a ski instead. Replacing the full engine cowl, it will have a wind and water deflector in front of the engine. In other words, it will be more of the minimalist design approach which seems to be so popular today.

By building both versions of the same boat, I think I can satisfy a broader spectrum of racers. OK, OK you say "well which one is the best"? I really don't see either kit as being the "BEST". The ELITE will be the quickest one to build (less parts) and weigh slightly less but the ULTRA will be more aerodynamically and hydrodynamically sound. I am sure time will tell and one will edge out over the other. The ELITE will resemble the current outriggers used today while retaining the distinctive look of the Phantom. The ULTRA will be a 21st century extension of the original Phantom design. I really think it will come down to personal preference.

In a few days, I will be posting pictures of both (ELITE & ULTRA) front sponsons and you will get a better idea of what I am talking about. Later! Joe
 
Back to boat building 101! Hi Guys, in my last post, I mentioned the ELITE & ULTRA kits of the PHANTOM II. In this post, I will show pictures of both front sponsons. The ELITE is a minimal approach and the ULTRA is an aerodynamic approach. See photos below. Please realize that these sponsons are just roughed out. I have not finished filling and sanding them yet.

Also for the less experienced builders, I have included a couple of tips. You will notice a container of wood filler, this is the absolute best wood filler I have ever used. It is the color of wood and very easy to sand, so much so that I also use it on Balsa wood. It dries very fast and is more than strong enough to fill imperfections. If you go to purchase some just be sure you don't get the stainable type as it is not very workable and seems to be very grainy. I buy mine at Walmart. Also I have seen guys use a lot of methods to hold a piece of wood in place until it dries but the most effective way I have ever found is masking tape. The secret to good success for this method is "BUY A GOOD QUALITY TAPE"! It only costs a little more but it well worth it.

Look at the sponsons and let me know what you think. I will have pictures of the boats mocked up on my next post so you can really get an idea of the physical differences between the two. Later! Joe
 
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Hey Guys, I forgot to mention in my earlier post the weight of each sponson. The ELITE sponson weighed 1.5 oz and the ULTRA sponson weighed 2.3 oz. This is just .8 oz difference between the two. So which ever one chooses, there is very little weight difference. Joe
 
Are those the sponsons for the .12 ? What AOA are you shooting for and is there any Dihedral,if so how much and why?
 
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