Mike Larson
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2003
- Messages
- 927
Joe my friend all you do is ramble and ramble, the point is we all need to quiet our boats down. All your complaining does not help the isse at hand face it the member has spoken 92 db. I voted no but will comply. Is there a better way i hope so,will races suffer i doubt it. Gasoline at $3.00 a gallon is a better reason to stay closer to home and race than a muffler rule that we all knew was coming for years..MikeGeez..... I was gonna stay away from it all, small potatoes racer, and all,... If everyone were more willing to SHARE information on how they achieved their current sound levels, things would be better for all, like, say, my nova 21 outboard works well with an Irwin quiet pipe@ 8''..... and so on...... If anyone in my group is to buy a DB meter itd be me...... I havent, fearing the readings will fail me at a future campaign.........( Maybe so, Maybe not, Im not gamblin) Big race comin up.... Half my boats are out...... 21's or not, theyre loud, Rather than hassle with, or risk infraction, Ill leave em home.... All the bickering in the world on here aint solvin squat....... Guaranteed one thing, there are alot of guys like me makin descisions based on the events of late, and the sport as a whole has taken a blow, again..... Im hoping the pipe manufactures are diligently studying new quiet protos as we fight..... If, the information on said pipes comes out with good results, Id be in line.... Ive 7 inboard boats..... thats big money to refit, and big time to retest..... I can do it....... Lets have the equipment...... and the information /feedback that goes along with it..... Euro guys, gimme some pics of an encapsulated stuffing tube.... SHARE......... Start a "Quiet Boat" post.... Engine/pipe, and whatever efforts incorporated to make the boat quiet.... I feel really sorry for you big block guys, you got a tough row to hoe...... Id like to have an F hydro one day, making one quiet is a different story........ Whatever.... Ive sport tunnels too.... What, as a whole is this group to do, when the DB levels go lower than a sport equipped tunnel? How do I make it quiet? Questions abound.... Racers await.......... Been away a year...... somebody influence me to rejoin again, with the way things are going I didnt miss a beat........... Good luck to all.......mike
Mike......Good Luck on your fall race & gas was has been @ 3.00 per gallon for a while now....Joe my friend all you do is ramble and ramble, the point is we all need to quiet our boats down. All your complaining does not help the isse at hand face it the member has spoken 92 db. I voted no but will comply. Is there a better way i hope so,will races suffer i doubt it. Gasoline at $3.00 a gallon is a better reason to stay closer to home and race than a muffler rule that we all knew was coming for years..MikeGeez..... I was gonna stay away from it all, small potatoes racer, and all,... If everyone were more willing to SHARE information on how they achieved their current sound levels, things would be better for all, like, say, my nova 21 outboard works well with an Irwin quiet pipe@ 8''..... and so on...... If anyone in my group is to buy a DB meter itd be me...... I havent, fearing the readings will fail me at a future campaign.........( Maybe so, Maybe not, Im not gamblin) Big race comin up.... Half my boats are out...... 21's or not, theyre loud, Rather than hassle with, or risk infraction, Ill leave em home.... All the bickering in the world on here aint solvin squat....... Guaranteed one thing, there are alot of guys like me makin descisions based on the events of late, and the sport as a whole has taken a blow, again..... Im hoping the pipe manufactures are diligently studying new quiet protos as we fight..... If, the information on said pipes comes out with good results, Id be in line.... Ive 7 inboard boats..... thats big money to refit, and big time to retest..... I can do it....... Lets have the equipment...... and the information /feedback that goes along with it..... Euro guys, gimme some pics of an encapsulated stuffing tube.... SHARE......... Start a "Quiet Boat" post.... Engine/pipe, and whatever efforts incorporated to make the boat quiet.... I feel really sorry for you big block guys, you got a tough row to hoe...... Id like to have an F hydro one day, making one quiet is a different story........ Whatever.... Ive sport tunnels too.... What, as a whole is this group to do, when the DB levels go lower than a sport equipped tunnel? How do I make it quiet? Questions abound.... Racers await.......... Been away a year...... somebody influence me to rejoin again, with the way things are going I didnt miss a beat........... Good luck to all.......mike
Chris,Do the guys over sea's run nitro??? I think they run alcahol?? am i right.
if that is the case there is a major contributor to the reason they aren't as loud..
go to a top alcahol race some time and then go to a nitro race.....
just a obeservation.
chris
Chris,Do the guys over sea's run nitro??? I think they run alcahol?? am i right.
if that is the case there is a major contributor to the reason they aren't as loud..
go to a top alcahol race some time and then go to a nitro race.....
just a obeservation.
chris
If you look back, some of the people from across the big pond are running the same nitro we're running.
Something to take into consideration, part C. of the noise rule states that the db metermust be set 25 ft. back from the waters edge. Therefore, the db meter's placement is set according to the shoreline and not set in relation to the course. So, from course to course, the db meter placement in relation to the actual driving lanes could change resulting in higher and lower db readings at different locations. Example, at any given location according to the rulebook bouy 6 can be placed at varible distances from shore, anywhere from 50-150ft(page K-10 in rulebook section 5). This part of the rule should be amended to state that the db meter should be placed x number of feet from bouy 6, not 25ft. from shoreline.6. IMPBA Noise Rule
At all IMPBA sanctioned events all boats MUST meet the following conditions,
and boat operators accept the included mandates.
a. A commercially available noise measurement device (Radio Shack or
equivalent) must be used. The noise measurement device will be set to the
"A" weighted measuring scale, fast response.
b. The maximum allowed db level for IMPBA Sanctioned events will be 92 db.
c. Measurements must be made from the shoreline area, between buoy #6 and
the starting line. The measuring device will be set at a minimum height of 4'
to 6' above the ground, with the device pointed approximately 90 degrees to
the running path of the boats 25 feet back from the waters edge*. Stable
mounting such as a tripod is strongly recommended. Care should be taken to
assure the operator of the measuring device is in a safe location.
d. If more than one measurement is made, the highest reading will be used. At
the discretion of the CD, a participant may be required to make a solo run to
determine a db reading. If a participant refuses to make a solo run, they will be
disqualified from the event.
e. Measurements will only be made on boats that are on the race course, and are
well under way (i.e., not getting on plane or being launched or in the pits). The
boat should be traveling approximately perpendicular to the direction the
measuring device is pointed, and the boat should be located approximately in
front of the measurement device in one of the racing lanes on the front
straightaway.
f. Measurement of the noise level should ideally be performed by the CD, but
he/she may be assisted by others appointed by the CD if this is not practical.
g. A competitor must be warned promptly after the CD determines that their boat
exceeds the db limit. If during the subsequent round the boat still exceeds the db
limit, the boat will be disqualified from competition. All points earned during
the previous rounds will be valid.
h. The host club shall provide the measuring device.
Mitch,Something to take into consideration, part C. of the noise rule states that the db metermust be set 25 ft. back from the waters edge. Therefore, the db meter's placement is set according to the shoreline and not set in relation to the course. So, from course to course, the db meter placement in relation to the actual driving lanes could change resulting in higher and lower db readings at different locations. Example, at any given location according to the rulebook bouy 6 can be placed at varible distances from shore, anywhere from 50-150ft(page K-10 in rulebook section 5). This part of the rule should be amended to state that the db meter should be placed x number of feet from bouy 6, not 25ft. from shoreline.6. IMPBA Noise Rule
At all IMPBA sanctioned events all boats MUST meet the following conditions,
and boat operators accept the included mandates.
a. A commercially available noise measurement device (Radio Shack or
equivalent) must be used. The noise measurement device will be set to the
"A" weighted measuring scale, fast response.
b. The maximum allowed db level for IMPBA Sanctioned events will be 92 db.
c. Measurements must be made from the shoreline area, between buoy #6 and
the starting line. The measuring device will be set at a minimum height of 4'
to 6' above the ground, with the device pointed approximately 90 degrees to
the running path of the boats 25 feet back from the waters edge*. Stable
mounting such as a tripod is strongly recommended. Care should be taken to
assure the operator of the measuring device is in a safe location.
d. If more than one measurement is made, the highest reading will be used. At
the discretion of the CD, a participant may be required to make a solo run to
determine a db reading. If a participant refuses to make a solo run, they will be
disqualified from the event.
e. Measurements will only be made on boats that are on the race course, and are
well under way (i.e., not getting on plane or being launched or in the pits). The
boat should be traveling approximately perpendicular to the direction the
measuring device is pointed, and the boat should be located approximately in
front of the measurement device in one of the racing lanes on the front
straightaway.
f. Measurement of the noise level should ideally be performed by the CD, but
he/she may be assisted by others appointed by the CD if this is not practical.
g. A competitor must be warned promptly after the CD determines that their boat
exceeds the db limit. If during the subsequent round the boat still exceeds the db
limit, the boat will be disqualified from competition. All points earned during
the previous rounds will be valid.
h. The host club shall provide the measuring device.
We need to get this type of stuff out of the grey area make it black and white. Not "measure somewhere between buoy 6 and the starting line" Tell us a location to measure from and that will be that and then it won't be open to personal opinion.
~Mitch
AMEN TO #6 BOUYMark it's not a matter of "catching or DQing" people it's a matter of sfaety and the ability to observe the boats and the meter at the same time. If you are a 100 feet back from the waters edge how are you going to observe a boat and the meter at the same time. The 25 feet was chosen since that is obtainable at all lake sites without being placed ain a roadway or swamp. It is a standard measurement in our safety rtules since all people are supposed to be kept back from the water's edge at least 20 feet. This way the person taking the reading is also out of the higher risk area. The rule, however it is composed, must be able to work at all lakesite locations and reading for specific boats as they pass by must be able to be obtained.
If you measure from the buoy line to the shore it can vary but so can the lane the boat driver chooses to drive in as you well know when you had your solitary run at the Internats and hit more #6 buoys than you had the whole time you have been running boats so you could stay father away from the DB meter location.
Which most people in your position would have done also.
I would like to get the ball roling on a way to improve our current db rule. i am looking for constructive critcism of why any of my ideas would not work. I am not interested in hearing we do not need to fix the rule. I am not interested in hearing just got your boat to 85 db's. I am interested in peoples opinion of how to make a db rule work consistanly.
There has been some conversation about trying to make the radio shack db meter work. I personally do not believe that this is going to be a viable option as they are not self calabrating. I for one thought that maybe a once a year calabration would be surfice but after doing some research I have found that this is not viable. This quote is taken dirrectly from on osha guildline "Calibrate all noise-measuring instruments according to the manufacturer's instructions before and after each day of use and whenever the temperature or relative humidity changes significantly. " This can be viewed at the following website under Calibration http://www.environmental-center.com/articl.../article138.htm. In research of meters I have found that significant tempature or releative humidty changes are defined as tempature changes of 10 degrees or humidity changes of 5 percent. I at this time am unable to find the instruction manual of were this was found, but I would be willing to change the numbers to anything that we can find scientific data to support. Keep in mind as near as I can tell it takes approximately five secondscalabrate these meters.So it would not be that difficult to say meter needs to be calabrated hourly. Also notice on the above website concerning osha it indicates that the meter is what changes instead of actual noise level when atmoshphereic conditions apply. this is quite from the above mentioned site under Effects of the enviroment "Temperature, humidity, atmospheric pressure, wind, and dust can all affect the performance of noise-measuring instruments and their readings. Magnetic fields can also affect the performance of instruments. Each of these factors is discussed below. " This to me indicates that when the tempature for example climbs that the actual noise level does not change but the calabration of the meter actually changes.
I would like to see the rule changes to say that the meter should be some ditance from racing lanes. our rule book states that the maximum the front straight can be from the shore is 150' so maybe our rule should state the meter should be 175 from lane 1. To help with logistics of each site there should be no rule on exactly were the db meter has to be because if it is written that it should be between start clock an buoy 6 at some sites that may be in the middle of the street or in the lake. My point here is to make the db meter a specific distance from lane 1. It should not matter if the meter is in the front streth or the back stretch or even in one of the turns.
I would like to see the rule written were peak noise is measured instead of parrallell to the meter. This makes it easier for the person operating the db meter. There may need to be an adjustment to go from 92 dbs to 94 dbs. This is not increasing the sound people this is simply making it easier for the person running the db meter. maybe Buddy Bindict could help with what he saw from parrallel to the meter and peak measurements to further define this. I think a 2 db differnce is what I remeber seeing. This help keeps judgement calls down.
There needs to be a place dedicated for the meter that is clear for some distance. the db meter should not be placed in the vacinity of the retrive boat. The db meter should not be placed in the vacinity of tents or anything that can cause a vibration as this is prone to giving false reading by the db meter.
There should be one tripod specified as different tripods may cause different vibrations that affect db meter in differnet ways.
There should be one meter specified. there are meters that do everything we need to do in $250.00 range.
The only variable that i do not know how to address is wind and magnetic fields. Anybody got in ideas?
I think the above ideas would make the db rules work much better. I have provided you with a couple of websites that contain OSHA guildlines and I believe what iam saying to be true. If you think that I have taken something out of context please explain. I am no noise expert but I am trying to help ind a cure to this problem. I have not tested any of this and there are a number of variable that may need to be addressed. if you see one of these variables please post.
Sincerely,
Allen Waddle
If you travel to other sites it has become quite clear that it's in your best interest to figure out a measurement location, similar to those in the rules, that will record your boat at its LOUDEST and then do what is necessary to get your boat comfortably below the limit. Doing so should ensure that you will be ok even in the worst case scenario. If someone prepares by measuring at 175 feet and then gets warned/DQ'd because the race site measured at 75 feet, it's not the fault of the hosting site. If you prepared for 75 feet and the site turns out to be 175 feet, don't sweat it, there's been plenty of evidence that quiet doesn't mean slow.Something to take into consideration, part C. of the noise rule states that the db metermust be set 25 ft. back from the waters edge. Therefore, the db meter's placement is set according to the shoreline and not set in relation to the course. So, from course to course, the db meter placement in relation to the actual driving lanes could change resulting in higher and lower db readings at different locations. Example, at any given location according to the rulebook bouy 6 can be placed at varible distances from shore, anywhere from 50-150ft(page K-10 in rulebook section 5). This part of the rule should be amended to state that the db meter should be placed x number of feet from bouy 6, not 25ft. from shoreline.
We need to get this type of stuff out of the grey area make it black and white. Not "measure somewhere between buoy 6 and the starting line" Tell us a location to measure from and that will be that and then it won't be open to personal opinion.
Chuck,If you travel to other sites it has become quite clear that it's in your best interest to figure out a measurement location, similar to those in the rules, that will record your boat at its LOUDEST and then do what is necessary to get your boat comfortably below the limit. Doing so should ensure that you will be ok even in the worst case scenario. If someone prepares by measuring at 175 feet and then gets warned/DQ'd because the race site measured at 75 feet, it's not the fault of the hosting site. If you prepared for 75 feet and the site turns out to be 175 feet, don't sweat it, there's been plenty of evidence that quiet doesn't mean slow.Something to take into consideration, part C. of the noise rule states that the db metermust be set 25 ft. back from the waters edge. Therefore, the db meter's placement is set according to the shoreline and not set in relation to the course. So, from course to course, the db meter placement in relation to the actual driving lanes could change resulting in higher and lower db readings at different locations. Example, at any given location according to the rulebook bouy 6 can be placed at varible distances from shore, anywhere from 50-150ft(page K-10 in rulebook section 5). This part of the rule should be amended to state that the db meter should be placed x number of feet from bouy 6, not 25ft. from shoreline.
We need to get this type of stuff out of the grey area make it black and white. Not "measure somewhere between buoy 6 and the starting line" Tell us a location to measure from and that will be that and then it won't be open to personal opinion.
This was discussed at length before the rule passed. The problem was that since not all sites are laid out the same, it's not possible to put a specific distance in the rules. For example, 100 feet from bouy 6 might work at one site, while it could be in the middle of the water at another. This discussion could go on forever and we still may not come up with the "perfect" rules.Chuck,
What you are saying is true but it does nothing to make anything uniform. We are looking for consistancy.
Allen
175 feet? You're joking right? :blink: So how would you do that? Not allow anyone within 100 feet of the lake? What do you think will happen to your readings when someone fires up a boat on shore getting ready for the next heat ?Now we could set the meter at 175' from the 1 and 6 bouy line and we may also in the same deal be able to lower the dB level to 85dB or even 80dB.
If they are the type who has to push the limit and setup their boats to be just legal at 175' then yes, they will be unhappy. Of course they may also be unhappy when they go to a lake that has different accoustics. Gee, does this sound familiar? OTOH, if they are interested in racing instead of looking for an excuse to be pissed off, then they'll figure out that it's better to setup the boat to be legal at 75', just to be safe. What is it about some people that they would rather push the limit and risk a DQ than be a bit safe and have a good time?Lets look at this another way. The way the present rule is written it is totally not policeable. If you keep the present distance from the shore line you will have sites with there dB meter at a distance from the bouy line of 175' and a minmium of 75'. Now with everone trying to comply it will be very hard for boater to get there hardware to comply at smaller lakes than the lake they set up on if they run on larger lakes. Now if a few racers from a large lake go to a race that has a small lake what do you think the end results will be. Well unless they were super quiet I am afraid they will be going home very upset.
Complying with the rules at all of the potential race sites is an undue burden?And then the next year when that race comes along the same racers will go somewhere else. And what do you thing will happen to the club that has the small lake site.
It would be a undue burden on racer to try to comply for smaller lakes using his larger lakes site. And of course it will be even harder for a racer to try to comply at a small lake site. He may even get mad and just quit.
Our lake is in a bowl. If you put the meter at 175' from the bouy 1-6 line, it will also be elevated significantly above the level of the lake. That is bound to significantly mess up the results.Now we could set the meter at 175' from the 1 and 6 bouy line and we may also in the same deal be able to lower the dB level to 85dB or even 80dB. Would this not make all of the people wanting to lower the dB level happy.
A great goal!There is one thing for sure I have always been able to see the forest for the trees.
Lets see if we can get it to 80dB.
Well it is a thought. The average distance from the shore would be about 50' for most sites. This falls into the same distance that NAMBA uses. And remember the europeans distance is 32.8' from shore. And also if you look back at the post 30 that Dave Marles posted. He said that they were over looking the bigger motors because of problem of getting them below the numbers. Of course what you posted Don is right. And I feel that some of the problems is the fact that we have so many trailers, tents, and other things where we are trying to test it at that its giving us false readings. As you can start to see there are alot of technical problems that are showing up to this problem.If they are the type who has to push the limit and setup their boats to be just legal at 175' then yes, they will be unhappy. Of course they may also be unhappy when they go to a lake that has different accoustics. Gee, does this sound familiar? OTOH, if they are interested in racing instead of looking for an excuse to be pissed off, then they'll figure out that it's better to setup the boat to be legal at 75', just to be safe. What is it about some people that they would rather push the limit and risk a DQ than be a bit safe and have a good time?Lets look at this another way. The way the present rule is written it is totally not policeable. If you keep the present distance from the shore line you will have sites with there dB meter at a distance from the bouy line of 175' and a minmium of 75'. Now with everone trying to comply it will be very hard for boater to get there hardware to comply at smaller lakes than the lake they set up on if they run on larger lakes. Now if a few racers from a large lake go to a race that has a small lake what do you think the end results will be. Well unless they were super quiet I am afraid they will be going home very upset.
If we all know that we might race with the line at 75', but for technical reasons may sometimes happen to be at a lake that measures at 175', doesn't it make sense that we would ALL be ready to be measured at 75'?
Complying with the rules at all of the potential race sites is an undue burden?And then the next year when that race comes along the same racers will go somewhere else. And what do you thing will happen to the club that has the small lake site.
It would be a undue burden on racer to try to comply for smaller lakes using his larger lakes site. And of course it will be even harder for a racer to try to comply at a small lake site. He may even get mad and just quit.
Our lake is in a bowl. If you put the meter at 175' from the bouy 1-6 line, it will also be elevated significantly above the level of the lake. That is bound to significantly mess up the results.Now we could set the meter at 175' from the 1 and 6 bouy line and we may also in the same deal be able to lower the dB level to 85dB or even 80dB. Would this not make all of the people wanting to lower the dB level happy.
A great goal!There is one thing for sure I have always been able to see the forest for the trees.
Lets see if we can get it to 80dB.
Do you have cars coming down the road? If you do you going to be picking up cars with the dB meter and not boats. They will pass at about 95dB depending on how smooth the road is. Where do you suggest we place it.At are pond if you set the DB meter 25 foot from waters edge you would have to close the road.Thats not goin to happen it needs to be alot closer so we can do it properly.Need a set distance....
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