Whats fair about "Toy Boats"

My e-mail and 87 others is blowing up on people registering on the same frequency to not run one individual. That individual is primarily a racing partner, you travel and pit with, or in my case a family member. Father-son and now grandson. 20-30 years ago as we traveled to out of town races with manual registration we used the same frequencies to pit for each other and share starting equipment. When there were not enough boats to split a heat we made do and found pit people and ran together. At larger races which are the ones we like to travel to we never had problems with the courtesy of letting us separate.

Now with on line registration and 95% of us on DSM you list the same primary channel to keep separate, and the computer recognizes the split. You come in on DSM and it is an issue like you cheated the whole field.

So why are we making it hard for people that travel, share expenses, and want their pit person that they are comfortable with to come to and support your "toy boat event".

It's unfair I have been told as we don't race everyone. With 12 entrants and say 3 pairs on same frequencies (not same for all pairs) you still have the chance of racing 10 of 11 contestants.

Is it Cheating anyone? When a team pair runs apart they cannot effect the outcome of a heat or race. When we run in the same heat we can team up and allow the better in points to advance a position. So then we can affect an outcome. Now has anyone here ever told another racer he won't beat them as they need points and your out of contention? It happens more than you know. Buddy racing.

So what are the pro's and cons?

Pit person- I have been told just find someone it doesn't matter. (toy boats again) Well my regular pit person hasn't won a heat for me but he has saved more than a few collisions. If I tell Jay to turn left he doesn't question it as he knows I see something he doesn't. Sharp left and avoids a dead boat. Also having someone you trust to launch your equipment is a big thing. I have tossed people in and my bad there out before they start as I wasn't sure of how to launch a certain boat.

Safety here all around. Ask a NASCAR driver to just pick a spotter out of the pits.

Racers are more likely to choose your clubs event if you make it friendly. I spend nearly $1,000 travel and lodging to go to a 3 -4 day event 500+ miles away. At an event here in Fl 2 guys came all the way from Australia and ran each other in a majority of heat accepting a random computer scramble. They probably won't do that again. Your traveling partner more than likely runs the same classes as that's what brought you together in the first place. I have traveled and wound up running 4 of my local guys that run together all the time. We all scramble for pit people and we traveled to race others. I realize you have to accept things but just pairing a couple would make it more fun to travel.

So what isn't fair? If you want fair just group the top 6 in points in the final heat and "teams" will run for themselves. Are two people that good they need to race each other to cut their points? Again running together is the "team" advantage to control an outcome.

By the way I have been registering straight up for the last couple years (other than my grandson who we need to pit for) and fortunately we have enough boats to run other classes. Not everyone is in that position. Not as much fun to travel.

So who is all bent out of shape against "team racers"? Could it be losing and sour grapes?

Flame suit on!

Mic

The race format that Evansville and The 2016 Nitro Nats run do away with this whole subject... Shootout style carry point all the way through.. Keeps the top points guys together no matter what channel you are on. This format should be used at every race in my opinion. Me and my father are racing partners and pit guys and run primarily the same classes when we go to race we do not enter on same channel and make do just fine.. there is always plenty of good help at the races and using a pit guy you dont know is a good way to make a new friend at the races.. im not going to say it isn't fair but i will say its silly if 2 guys enter a class on the same channel with 7 -9 total boats the heats pretty much stay the same all weekend..

It doesn't mean a thing to me one way or another I will have a good time . I can always find someone to launch as I travel alone and never have the same pit person . Let's race .

Things will happen no matter what!! Our last race saw a pit person launch a buddies boat onto the shore and with 2.4 mostly now there are not many conflicts, besides you meet new people!! We as a boating community are a friendly bunch just out to have a great time with others that enjoy the same hobby. Their are those that do take things a little too far and they only enjoy it if they are winning. These people are not in the hobby for the right reason as far as I am concerned. Jim Wilson was one that shared with everyone who asked and had no secrets if you wanted to know. Dealers and manufactures may fall into the serious section but not all of them, look at Al Hobbs a great guy, and there are others! It's not what wins on Sunday sell's on Monday.

Brad

I just picked my team...Corey Duncan in Outboards,Jerry Crowther in Mono's,and Stu Barr in Rigger's. Just like Fantasy Football,lol just kidding.

I don't care either way,I just want to race EVERYBODY in the classes I'm entered. If it is such a big deal,put it up for a vote in IMPBA/Namba membership. Until then use the computer to pick the heat's,unless the Club putting the race on say's different on the entry. K.I.S.S rule applies here.

Guys,

I have to agree with Stan here! I can't tell you how many times I had to race my "Old Man" even though we were a "TEAM"!! At the end of four rounds it's the total points that determines who is the WINNER and the runnerups.. Radios have advanced to the point where we seldom have a frequency conflict (Which I hated listening to) and that's folks is what we call advancing in the hobby and technology!

Later!!

Pat

I will admit I used to think otherwise but since this has been going on for a long time why the fuss now? Doc and Mark do it, Joe and Ralph, many others as well. Besides it really isn't that big a deal unless you only have one heat's worth of boats, in that case they run together and find pit people. Plus it's always good to know you have someone familiar with your stuff on how they start, particular ways they need to be tossed, etc, etc.

Don Ferrette said:

I will admit I used to think otherwise but since this has been going on for a long time why the fuss now? Doc and Mark do it, Joe and Ralph, many others as well. Besides it really isn't that big a deal unless you only have one heat's worth of boats, in that case they run together and find pit people. Plus it's always good to know you have someone familiar with your stuff on how they start, particular ways they need to be tossed, etc, etc.

Click to expand...

You are correct,I have a decent pit man so I do not have a Dog in this fight. JMO

The biggest problem that we have is someone is always trying to re-write the rules every time they put out a flyer or CD a race. Lets change the rule book first so we can all be on the same page and topics like this wouldn't come up period. I also don't think that the concerns of a scale boat or mono class are the same as mine running a twin and for me to dictate something with the broad brush stroke will generate some heat as in this case. I like to race and do so according to the rules.

Your very right Don. We have been doing this for over thirty years. It has nothing to do with trying to gain advantage or stack the deck, it is simple math on running a lot of boats and not to burden our racing friends or the host club. And by doing what we do is the only way to make the software work for us. With todays radios it really make no difference.

Does this mean that if I went to RC events I could look at the list then just sign up on the same channel as a know "fast" racer to avoid running in the same heat?.. What am I missing?.. I thought the heats were set at random.

Ok..The lid is almost off the box...keep knocking on it...can't wait for contents to come out.....

wayne george said:

Does this mean that if I went to RC events I could look at the list then just sign up on the same channel as a know "fast" racer to avoid running in the same heat?.. What am I missing?.. I thought the heats were set at random.

Click to expand...

Depends what your computer program keys on. Most are by frequency. I get that guys like to pit and coach each other, especially family. We also have one family in our region where one of them has a disability and that is a no-brainer for them that they need to help each other.

That said, this can also be abused. Several years ago 4 or 5 of the fastest guys in one of clubs decided to all come to the premier race of the year on the same frequency. As a consequence ALL of them made straight into the final (in a field of over 30 scale boats) since none of the had to race each other in any of the 4 prelims or connies. It was obvious what was going on and I found it distasteful and unsportsmanlike. It wasn't illegal, but certainly unethical.

My wife and I take mission teams to Mexico twice a year that I would love to take with us some of the people that get so wound up about this call or that non-call or the politics. I could introduce them to some migrant farm workers that make $8 for a 12-14 hour day picking strawberries, live in camps you wouldn't keep your dog in and these people could tell them how they got wronged at the toy boat races. I'm sure they would lend a sympathetic ear. Gimme a break! I mean where's the perspective that we are all privileged and blessed to be able to enjoy such an expensive, exotic hobby in the first place? Hello?

There is good and bad to both sides of this subject and honestly I don't care any more, just want to race. I've said my piece and will leave this topic with one final thing- while this is NOT directed at any particular people or clubs since the advent of 2.4 that technology has actually made it even easier to perform race manipulating and heat stacking than when we only had fixed frequencies. Every race program heat formatting can be edited one way or another before it's "final" version spits out the heats. Has that happened lately?? Hard to say 100% irrefutably but I've heard plenty of rumors and accusations...........

It's a hobby fellas we're supposed to do this for FUN.

I don't think it matters who is in your heat. in the 2015 Mini Gold Cup, I was up against some pretty successful boaters. Winner of my 2nd heat?............. Me!

The other 4 guys either died lean, or hooked or whatever. Wind, wake, chop, needle settings and mechanical failures can happen. Good ole' Mr. reliable who was 15mph slower than the rest was the last guy standing. Super neat if you can beat them by out driving them & you all finish the heat. But I'll take what I can get.

Mike Cathey's second paragraph is absolutely on target and it happens more than people know and needs to be avoided. That is the real downside of our racing.

Comments made note that we should follow the rules, do not make up new ones and get the rule book changed before something new occurs. I agree but something exists that very few know exists. However, the rule regarding frequencies already exists and has for many years. Check the IMPBA rule book (on line at impba.net), section G, Contest and Racing Rules, paragraph IC(1), titled Frequencies. It clearly notates that every racer is responsible for entering the CORRECT frequency when entering a race. The host club is NOT required to make any change needed to correct the error caused by the racer. A DQ being assessed is very possible. This rule has been in force since before Jan 2002, the oldest rule book I have on hand. An INTENTIONAL false entry with the wrong frequency is grounds for a DQ in that class in the very least regardless of the reason for it.

So guys, let's follow the RULE we already have in the rulebook. We all need to do the right thing for every race.

However, I readily concede that the twins (nitro and gas) and the F Hydro class which is highly populated by twins, needs to have experienced pit help familiar with the starting, launching and running of twins. Therefore I have no problem with the racers to utilize the same frequency to maintain heat separation in those 3 classes. However, there is no true justification to do it for any other class, nitro, gas or tunnels. Let the twins get the exception to the rule but no others. There are many racers and pit crews that are ready, willing and happy to assist any racer needing help in the pits. That is one of the special things about our racers, they always help each other, any time and every time.

Yes, let's follow the rule already in existence, one and all.

So John what you are saying is that if we enter all of our boats classes in the race on the same frequencies and 2.4 for the alt you going to DQ us for that? We need this answer not. Because whatever you say will have a big effect.

The answer is in what the rule states and what you enter on as your primary freq, not the alternate. If you do just as you say, due to a frequency conflict, the race officials can change you to the alt freq which will bring you in compliance of the rule as written.

May I suggest you all enter the race with the frequencies you have with the radios you run with. If you do not then you open the door for something else to occur and no one, including me, wants that to happen. Exception granted for those 3 classes, which is the one you stated so vigorously that need to be accommodated - the twins. Do it according to the rules that have been here for many years. I ask nothing more than that and so have others.

Follow the rule, I am done with this topic.

Mike Cathey said:

wayne george said:

Does this mean that if I went to RC events I could look at the list then just sign up on the same channel as a know "fast" racer to avoid running in the same heat?.. What am I missing?.. I thought the heats were set at random.

Click to expand...

Depends what your computer program keys on. Most are by frequency. I get that guys like to pit and coach each other, especially family. We also have one family in our region where one of them has a disability and that is a no-brainer for them that they need to help each other.

That said, this can also be abused. Several years ago 4 or 5 of the fastest guys in one of clubs decided to all come to the premier race of the year on the same frequency. As a consequence ALL of them made straight into the final (in a field of over 30 scale boats) since none of the had to race each other in any of the 4 prelims or connies. It was obvious what was going on and I found it distasteful and unsportsmanlike. It wasn't illegal, but certainly unethical.

My wife and I take mission teams to Mexico twice a year that I would love to take with us some of the people that get so wound up about this call or that non-call or the politics. I could introduce them to some migrant farm workers that make $8 for a 12-14 hour day picking strawberries, live in camps you wouldn't keep your dog in and these people could tell them how they got wronged at the toy boat races. I'm sure they would lend a sympathetic ear. Gimme a break! I mean where's the perspective that we are all privileged and blessed to be able to enjoy such an expensive, exotic hobby in the first place? Hello?

Click to expand...

The second paragraph says a lot.

IF we are ALL model boaters playing model boats.

There should be NO concessions for any particular class/classes until the rulebook has been changed