The Electric Class Structure

[Andrewg]

Kevin

there are more people in the world racing 7 cell than 6 or 8 - all of Eurpoe China etc

Maybe Doug is trying to bring US and Europe into line - not bad time to as it looks like we will all aend up running the same cells

the APBA ran 7 cell till it folded into NAMBA in the early 90's

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

Certainly LiPoly is not ready-to-go at the present time.

The prices have to become much more resonable.

I also would not want to see them rushed in, while the cost of the cells was still astronomical. The problem of the "arms race" and the drive to buy victories would only be intensified by the introduction of superior cells that could only be afforded by Big Money Guys.

On the 6 or 7 issue.

Shifting to 7 cells would give sub-C users a distinct advantage over LiPoly users due to the V difference.

Why go through the trouble to rearrange the structure and immediately set up a class with a approximate 2 volt (or 20%) mismatch between old and new tech cells?

It would also drive people with quality 6 cell packs to have to mess around with the packs to add cells or be at a disadvantage. Risking damage or mismatching to what are proven good packs, is uncalled for.

As far as matching up with European cell counts:

Unless we also match up racing styles (sprint or endurance) it is somewhat irrelivant.

Also, just to put some fuel on the blaze, why should North America switch to 7 cells?

Why don't the Europeans switch to 6 cells?

If 6 cells more closely matches LiPoly cell voltages, it looks like it is time for Europe to change to 6.

KW

 

[forresterace]

This is obviously going to be a contentious issue and it is not going to be simple matter to resolve. Therefore perhaps it is a good idea to start discussing it now before it becomes a hasty decision situation.

To continue to view FE racing as a "us" and "them" division is short-sighted and all too prevalent in thinking these days. The evidence is there for all to see that FE racing thinking is already starting to converge world-wide with the rapid gain in popularity of 4 minute (enduro-style) Offshore classes in the US.

I agree that perhaps the LiPoly cell is not quite ready for primetime but with the accellerated rate of development today and the increasing of market

pressures will bring rapid spec and price changes. To not be ready for this will mean that we likely will get caught "behind the times". Look what happened with the introduction of Nimh cells. There was quite a period of time when racing rules still just specified Nicad cells and Nickel metal cells were not legal. Now look what has happened - Nimh are the only way to go for top performance. We have to get our collective heads out of the sand NOW. At least let's start some intelligent discussion of the future.

Obviously, my proposal was also trying to address the other ridiculous situation of a gazillion classes (and still rising!). I realize that the voltage match-up of the two cell chemistries is going to be difficult at the lowest levels (7-8 volts) but to allow ourselves to be stuck to the 6-8 cell voltage breaks will never bring about any class reduction. As high performance demands continue to bring about the move to battery pack "end to end" configuration, the argument for standard six cell matched packs holds less water.

So, what are some other proposals? As Fraser would say, "I'm listening". ;D

 

[sjslhill]

LiPoly is here and is ready.....yes it costs a ton and yes they can burn your boat, house, car and anything else if they catch on fire. Having said that, they appear to be the future unless they are somehow banned from the AMA.

I think the voltage idea is the way to go and I also feel that you cannot ignore LiPoly because of costs. Look at what brushless motors and controllers costs vs. brushed a few years ago. Look at the best 3300 cells from some vendors at $11.00 a cell. People can and will buy these things.

 

[Dan Chase]

I agree that voltage is the way to go over our current cell count. Maybe we need to phase it in over time. If we were to leave the 4 cell classes, LSH, ECO and N-1 maybe N2 classes alone using current sub C cells. This would allow the budget and new racer to remain competitive without spending big bucks. The upper classes are already expensive to stay competitive in and generally have the more experienced drivers. This could also be a good time to introduce a 1/8 mile course.

My fear with the Li-Poly is the chance of fire. Having just gone through a devastating house fire myself, I can tell you this is no picnic!

 

[crowebar]

I've been following this thread for a couple days trying to figure out what to say and how to do it without looking stupid. So, I agree. Sounds good to me guys.

Good point about the cross technologies Kevin. I wouldn't have picked up the 6-7 cell issues single cell vs Lipolys.

I also like keeping a few classes back as cell determined as Dan mentioned for the cost issues.

 

[Andrewg]

There is a way to avoid the dangers of paralleling and it is in the current rules -

" each cell in the boat will be treated as if it is in series"

that means 2 cells in parallel will count as one with twice the voltage - ie no point in paralleling. And it delays there widespread use until they "ready and reliable" in boats

The cell chemistry is not the only issue with lithium - the relaity is the flight guys are finding controllers, motor construction and chargers also need to change to cope with electrical characteristics, runtimesand current and different charge requirements

 

[Andrewg]

"As far as matching up with European cell counts:

Unless we also match up racing styles (sprint or endurance) it is somewhat irrelivant.z"

I think you will find the most popular classes in both continents are 12 cells - racing styles relates to current draws.

 

[sjslhill]

LiPoly is going to be used. Just sit back and watch the Europeans lead with this as well.

Everyone said that NIMH would not work years ago, look at it now. We first used the 2200 cell and proved that it would work.

LiPoly can be used safely and is the future.

It's kinda funny reading posts from you high dollar guys. You guys that use to run $500 brushless combo's in the 90's are complaining about money?

As for controllers and motors....how do you think thousands of Airplane guys are doing it? Why do you think Horizan is offering LiPoly now?

What's needed is a LiPoly class for 2004 to start out with. An endurance class of some type.

 

[Dan Chase]

Steve, what about the safety issue's with Li-Poly? I'm asking this sincerely, I'm very interested in running them. But after hearing some of the horror stories of them catching fire and burning down cars, catching fire in shops and others when they are not even connected or in use has me very worried, I'm a little fire shy after what I went through a couple months ago. Are these rumors true? Are there steps that can be taken to keep them as safe as our NiCads and NiHM cells?

I have also heard you can't charge them unattended, is this true?

 

[sjslhill]

Dan, if you don't charge and care for them correctly there is a chance of a fire. Steps must be taken to do it safely. All battery packs should be watched when charging, this is nothing new, many just don't do it.

These cells and chargers will be improved, it's the future.

If you recall, many said that H2 would be released from NIMH and boats would explode, some have.

thanks

Steve

 

[Dan Chase]

What causes the fire? I head one story of a plane put away in a car that caught fire, is it heat buildup or some type of chemical reaction?

 

[sjslhill]

That is a very old situtaion, I don't know why that happened. It was a crashed plane. 99% of fires are caused by improper charging. The material inside the cell can be flamable if overcharged. You must use the proper charger and proper settings.

LiPoly is NOT for everyone, but it will be a factor.

that's my opinion.

Steve

What causes the fire? I head one story of a plane put away in a car that caught fire, is it heat buildup or some type of chemical reaction?

 

[Dan Chase]

Thanks, Steve. I plan on trying Li Poly just as soon as my bank manager (wife) will let me.

 

[eddieh]

What about the 40v insurance rule??(namba) we were talking about running 1/8th hydros and the limit because of the voltage limit on insurance. would that have to come into play or will the rules be modified...just a thought.

as for charging I had played with lithium ion batts for awhile (cells from laptop battery packs, man the voltage was there but you couldn't pull from the cells, I guess 2-3 c, so my cells were 1850's I could only pull 6 amps, will play with it a little more with the cells in parallel, but then the charger comes into play, I see that the small electric guys had used lion cells, but only 2 cells worth... and it would be too much of a hassle not to mention time consumption to charge a whole bunch of packs so the chargers will have to come into line as was said. I guess the lion has been replaced with the lipoly but it still seems the same caveats apply, it is the fnal couple of minutes that the temperture rises rapidly... causing risk of fire...and I guess this is the same for the venting of nimh cells....either can be extremely dangerous, when ernie lazenby told me about his boat being brought in after a race and he was just about to pick it up and poof it was gone... that was scary

 

[Dan Chase]

We would need to stay within the boundaries of the insurance, It states 32 sub C cells maximum, I don't think the insurance company would limit us to the power source, just the volts, maybe I'm wrong, but at the least the policy would need to be changed. The sub C definition in NAMBA could be changed by a rule proposal. Doesn't IMPBA have a similar insurance clause?

 

[sjslhill]

The rule is really incorrect anyway. 32 cell nominal voltage is 38.4V, which is considered below a dangerous level of voltage to cause death. The real voltage of 32 fully charged cells is 48V, which can cause death under certian circumsatances.

We would need to stay within the boundaries of the insurance, It states 32 sub C cells maximum, I don't think the insurance company would limit us to the power source, just the volts, maybe I'm wrong, but at the least the policy would need to be changed. The sub C definition in NAMBA could be changed by a rule proposal. Doesn't IMPBA have a similar insurance clause?

 

[crowebar]

It's kinda funny reading posts from you high dollar guys. You guys that use to run $500 brushless combo's in the 90's are complaining about money?

You're painting with a pretty broad brush there Steve. Seem's you've always pigeon holed me into the big bucks group. While I don't speak for everyone, I'm all for Lipoly's. As you stated, they are coming ready or not. I'm with you on this one.

Regarding the NIMH cells, they wern't the ticket till the latest generations. I know you brought the first 2,200's in, but they wern't as strong as the 2000's of their time nor do they compare with the 3300's of today.

You're in the business. You see how these things progress. Those 2200's wern't bad cells at all. They were probably one of the better starts for a new "line" of batteries to come out in a long time. Remember the first 2400's YIKES. It wasn't until the EG date codes that they came alive.

I hope Lipolys follow this trend. From what I've heard I'm sold AND we're only at the beginning of this chapter!!!!

Dick

 

[sjslhill]

Dick....

Nothing against you....top racers spend big bucks, always have, always will.

People are going to run LiPoly...simple fact.

It's kinda funny reading posts from you high dollar guys. You guys that use to run $500 brushless combo's in the 90's are complaining about money?

You're painting with a pretty broad brush there Steve. Seem's you've always pigeon holed me into the big bucks group. While I don't speak for everyone, I'm all for Lipoly's. As you stated, they are coming ready or not. I'm with you on this one.

Regarding the NIMH cells, they wern't the ticket till the latest generations. I know you brought the first 2,200's in, but they wern't as strong as the 2000's of their time nor do they compare with the 3300's of today.

You're in the business. You see how these things progress. Those 2200's wern't bad cells at all. They were probably one of the better starts for a new "line" of batteries to come out in a long time. Remember the first 2400's YIKES. It wasn't until the EG date codes that they came alive.

I hope Lipolys follow this trend. From what I've heard I'm sold AND we're only at the beginning of this chapter!!!!

Dick

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hello Guys,

Steve has had allot of good cells that people didn't use, off the top of my head the 2500s Nimh and the 2600s which really got my boats motivated. I put absolute trust into what Steve tells me about batteries, he should know because it's his business. There's nothing like info from the source and Steves NEVER steered me wrong.

Paul.