New Spektrum Spread spectrum radio

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Rudy Formanek

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
682
Just in time for Christmas reading,-----http://www.horizonhobby.com/Explore/Article.aspx?ArticleID=1535 wonder if this one will have enough range for boats? Good news for us stick drivers if it works. Interesting reading, do I dare hold my breath? Rudy

Heck already on E-bay --- Item number: 6020923749 $199.00 buy it now.
 
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I would wait and let someone else on your block get the new radio and see what happens. There has been alot of problems with Spektrum and marine useage. I have my own theorys on why it has problems around water. I was very dissapointed when I used their surface units in a marine enviroment!

Doug
 
Yep, I'll won't be the first, but the new dual channel, dual reciever, dual antennas that give 2000 ft range seem to be a BIG step in our direction. The tiny DX6 reciever sounds like it will beat the pants off the crappy single conversion recievers the park and ultralight flyers now use! Rudy
 
There is still a problem regarding signal reception and water. If the antenna('s) are close to the water, approx the length of the antenna wire from the side or transom and closer, causes alot of problems. If the antenna is closer to the centerline of the boat there are far fewer problems.

Doug
 
I'm getting back into boats after 10 years. i bought a spectrum 3 channel. While setting the trim the boat lost signal. I was at the far end of the course but not far enough to loose signal. I atributed it to going past the limit of the trim. Do you think it was the radio or reciever? The antenna is only about 4 inches long. I have it coming out of the boat about 2 inches vertically. It is near the centerline of a 1/8 scale. I am using a 5 cell batery pack.
 
For boats, range has been the continuing concern. The systems are widely accepted for cars, but the ranges are much shorter. I personally have not had any problems after a year of racing, but several experienced boaters have. I would like to hear from anyone who is having a problem and what was done to solve it. These systems are the wave of the future and NAMBA is adding a section in the rules for these radios. Several boating groups are using these radios with good results and NAMBA District 19 has officially approved their use for next year.

My precautions were to put the radio at the top of the radio box so nearly all the antenna is out of the box, to run 5 cell receiver packs, and to be sure that both the transmitter and receiver antennas were vertical.

Lohring Miller
 
Seeing as you have to disassemble the case to switch antenna exit points, could a small sheilded wire be used to extend the antenna enough to hook up to a permanent mount wire type antenna. This way the antenna can be located close to the center of the boat to reduce what I theorize is some signal ghosting when the antenna is close to the water line/transom areas.

Doug
 
Guys we keep re-hashing this same s#!t over & over again. Let me take you back to a very informative post from right here on I/W-

Hi all -

If I'm not mistaken, the Spektrum units run at 2.4 GHz. This would, in fact, make them need a very little antenna (believe it or not, I am a radio engineer for real). They are spread spectrum radios, which tries to help make up for the additional proagation loss suffered at this high frequency. This frequency (and in fact all frequencies as you go higher) become more and more directional and incurr higher losses going through air. This is why I have not yet been able to talk myself into one of these radios. Something as small as another boat coming between you and the you boat when it is out on the pond could cause major path losses which could have an adverse affect on your communications link. Diffraction at high frequencies is more severe, causing losses when even a small object comes between the transmitter and receiver.

Now, it may be that it is unlikely that this would happen, but it IS possible.

I'm not surprised to hear a report of a range problem.

Radios are not like computers...higher "GHz" is NOT better. That is why I run channel 63. I would have run 61, but someone else locally has that channel here.

.and his next post about antenna length-

Most antennas are 1/4 wave dipoles because 1/4 of the wavelength is about as small as you can go without beginning to seriously affect gain. On the other hand, the longer the antenna, the more gain it has. A 1/4 wave dipole antenna has 3 dB less gain (that is half the gain, 3 dB is always 50% up or down). In other words, the signal you receive with a 1/4 wave dipole antenna will be half the power you will receive with a 1/2 wave dipole. The name "1/4 Wave Dipole" gives a good hint as top how long it is - One-fourth (1/4) of the wavelength. The wavelength is usually called "Lambda", and it is calculated as follows:

Lambda = c/f

where c is the speed of light in a vacuum (3x10^8 m/s), and f is the frequency (in Hz, NOT kHz, MHz, or GHz) The answer is in meters because it is wavelength - the length of the wave.

So, for example, the wavelength of a 75 MHz signal is :

Lambda of 75 MHz = 300,000,000/75,000,000 = 4 meters

Now, if we take 1/4 of 4 meters, then we would say that an optimum gain 1/4 wave dipole for 75 MHz would be 1 meter long, remarkably about the length of the telescoping antenna that we have attached to our remote control transmitters.

Now the receiver does not use an antenna so big, mostly because at this frequency, we are actually blasting quite a bit of power out of the remote (that's why battery life is short). Of course, if we were to put a transmitter antenna on the receiver (as well as the transmitter), we would most likely increase the range substantially (but it would not be 50%!!!!).

From this thread- http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?showto...=spektrum&st=15

I know we all want these things to work but let's face it fellas, they were not designed for the distances we encounter vs. the car guys, for whom these were intended for, who need maybe 100 feet. Ever wonder why they don't currently make them for planes, jets & heli's? When they successfully market them to the real fly boys (not the park flyers who also don't fly very far away vs. a regular r/c plane or jet) is when you will see the range problem solved, if at all. Not to mention it is a very "dirty" frequency range. :blink:
 
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Yes the subject has been covered more than once before....

Yes they do make a 4 channel unit (for park flyers...)

Yes we have discussed placement of RX aerial and the potential for carbon fibre to shield radio waves, as well as other metal hardware (pipes, brackets, shafts, linkages etc....

Yes the whole DSM concept is great and if it was highly reliable then I would say go for it!!!! It really does solve so many problems in racing organisation and even club days at the pond.... But if your X hydro goes off air coz one of these glitched.... I dare say Spektrum wont pick up the damage bill.... It was made for RC cars at short distances.... It still seems to have some issues (which may be environmental, installation issues or just plain not suited to the application) and until there is a definitive guarantee that if installed correctly then it WILL NOT glitch, I would be staying old tech for now....

I am however interested if anyone has tried 1/2 wave RX length which should solve at least one of the problems.... Either that or a little coax extension from the RX unit to the aerial (antennae?) Either way Spektrum should be doing the R&D and assuring boaters that it works 100%, not us being the guinea pigs to refine their product....

Another point to remember is that the DSM Transmission is severely limited in maximum legal power output. Much less power than 75Mhz (or 36Mhz, or any other frequencies worldwide in mass produced radio units). This combined with the more directional signal of DSM (and all 2.4Ghz units) means the actual radio link is nowhere near as reliable....

Basically the DSM does work in ideal conditions and has proven it probably does even in some less than ideal conditions, but currently it is nowhere near as reliable as the traditional FM systems.

Pity :unsure:
 
PS

Another idea.... The actual power output of the 2.4Ghz TX units is limited but you could squeeze more range out of the TX unit with more efficient and more directional aerial (antennae) design... I am wondering how a 'patch' antennae would work, since it would be more directional, have a higher gain, and would be less orientation critical.... or maybe even a kind of dish?????

Time for you RF Heads out there to think outside the box.... coz DSM dont have it in the box yet....
 
Another point to remember is that the DSM Transmission is severely limited in maximum legal power output. Much less power than 75Mhz (or 36Mhz, or any other frequencies worldwide in mass produced radio units). This combined with the more directional signal of DSM (and all 2.4Ghz units) means the actual radio link is nowhere near as reliable....

Basically the DSM does work in ideal conditions and has proven it probably does even in some less than ideal conditions, but currently it is nowhere near as reliable as the traditional FM systems.
Craig thanks for bringing up the output part, I forgot about that. I as much as anyone would love to see these things be good enough for the boats, but so far they're not & may never be. A good friend of mine is an expert flyer (currently he competitively flies those mega buck turbine jets) & he told me the jet fly boys will not use them even if the range issues were not a factor because it is such a "dirty" bandwidth. These guys spend 10,15,20 grand & up PER PLANE! Garage door openers, cordless phones among others share this bandwidth where 27,72,75mhz (in the US) are designated for specific use. Also not too long ago I bought a new 2.4 cordless phone, not a cheap one either. The range sucked, was 1/2 of what my 900mhz cordless was & if you were too far from the base & say walked into another room you lost the signal, it appeared to be very directional as well. The DSM is a neat concept but not one I'm willing to trust yet to a 90mph twin or a 1/8 scale boat. :blink:
 
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i can just see it now!

someone on the drivers stand with a dish, or even worse a 5 element yagi strapped to there head :D

I have a friend who has purchased a Spektrum for his boat, if it dont work we will try every trick in the book!

Question for you electronics experts, what/where is the ground plane located on out recievers??

Ken
 
I definitely wouldn't want a Spectrum System and try to run some of the Offshore Courses I've seen. At Chesapeake if my boat hadn't have had a fair Roostertail going at the far bouy I wouldn't have been able to see it at all. That's all I would have needed is radio loss, a failsafe shutdown and 3-4 boats behind me running all over my hiney. :eek:
 
I only posted this as informational and don't believe it a REHASH, since the new park flyer DX-6 system is now out. Surely these will (and have) evolve very, very quickly since this stuff is coming from megabuck WI-FI networking technology. Don't think the anology to R/C jets is applicable, since a large portion of R/C boat racers are using SINGLE conversion recievers now and refuse to pay just a few dollars more for dual conversion ( the single conversion work). How many boaters get thier 75 FM radio retuned every couple years? Ever looked inside a DX-3 reciever? It's got like two chips and a connector block, it appears the connecters would weigh more than the electronics, in fact I think the two chips would weigh about the same as a crystal without its mounting socket. There is nothing to tune, it either works or it don't. No crystals for the manufacturer or the retailer to stock. Just from the standpoint of manufacturing efficiency, there are going to be plenty of driving forces. Maybe we won't end up on 2.4Gig, but if you live near any sizable city the whole RF band is pretty dirty and 72/75 MHZ is no exception, I ve stood behind my radio tech when he's tuned my 75 FM system and seen it on the oscillescope. Anyway the biggest RF threat to us is us, these radios eliminate that. Just posted as interesting reading, I didn't know of the DX-6 till recently also. Merry Christmas, Rudy.
 
I only posted this as informational and don't believe it a REHASH, since the new park flyer DX-6 system is now out. Surely these will (and have) evolve very, very quickly since this stuff is coming from megabuck WI-FI networking technology. Don't think the anology to R/C jets is applicable, since a large portion of R/C boat racers are using SINGLE conversion recievers now and refuse to pay just a few dollars more for dual conversion ( the single conversion work). How many boaters get thier 75 FM radio retuned every couple years? Ever looked inside a DX-3 reciever? It's got like two chips and a connector block, it appears the connecters would weigh more than the electronics, in fact I think the two chips would weigh about the same as a crystal without its mounting socket. There is nothing to tune, it either works or it don't. No crystals for the manufacturer or the retailer to stock. Just from the standpoint of manufacturing efficiency, there are going to be plenty of driving forces. Maybe we won't end up on 2.4Gig, but if you live near any sizable city the whole RF band is pretty dirty and 72/75 MHZ is no exception, I ve stood behind my radio tech when he's tuned my 75 FM system and seen it on the oscillescope. Anyway the biggest RF threat to us is us, these radios eliminate that. Just posted as interesting reading, I didn't know of the DX-6 till recently also. Merry Christmas, Rudy.
Wi-Fi? God I hope they do better than that. Ask Dick Tyndall about Wi-Fi. He has it & so does his neighbor, he logs onto his neighbors network connection more than his own. :lol:

Don't think the analogy to jets is applicable? Quite the contrary, you want to see who makes the good stuff, watch what the mega buck jet guys trust, I do. :)

I get my radios retuned every 2 years, just got all mine done last month. ;)

Don't get me wrong Rudy, the concept is awesome if they can overcome the range issue but 2.4 isn't the answer. Let's hope they come up with something better. :)
 

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