ive just finished an electric mono , on 6s

[Tofastformellow]

Ok so i had to have a try , and took some old brushless gear i had lying around to a spare hull ..

6s 4200ma 20c lipos .

80a align esc set to normal mode, fast acc, and HIGH timing ..

trex 600 "L" brushless 1620kv

an old ac 21 mono .

a x440x3 prop .

1 standard steering servo.

set it up at 32% cg and it come out at 2.2 kgs rtr .

i took it to the pond for a run today , might i say this thing is just rediculous

it runs so fast , and so loose , i could not believe it .

it simply runs with the nose 6 inches in the air and travels the length of the pond on the prop ...

its nuts .

i have the motor mounted up forward (Needs to go under the deck !) and the batterys i have shifted right forward .

im looking at a practicle usable CG of around 42% now ..!

all i can say is wow.. its got so much more acceleration than any racing 21 i have ever run .

what a total blast for a piece of recycled parts

once i get the balance/power thing worked out i will build a good one...



its ugly but functional , the green glow around the motor is the reflected evil contained within its case

Jason :lol:

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Jason,

Wow! That's a bunch of cells for a 21 size hull, it should be nuts. We usually run 4S in a 33" mono. Good luck and have fun!!!

Paul.

 

[JfromJAGs]

Paul, you guys run 4s2p in a 33" hulls, that's 8 LiPo cells. He ran only 6 cells - but all in series, what makes more sence anyway. Looking at the picture and comparing the size of the motor to the hull, the boat is bigger than 21". So 21 did'nt mean length, it was a boat for a 0.21cu (3.5cc) nitro motor.

Jason, how does it compare power and speedwise now to when it was run as a nitro boat?

Joerg

 

[Tofastformellow]

Paul, you guys run 4s2p in a 33" hulls, that's 8 LiPo cells. He ran only 6 cells - but all in series, what makes more sence anyway. Looking at the picture and comparing the size of the motor to the hull, the boat is bigger than 21". So 21 did'nt mean length, it was a boat for a 0.21cu (3.5cc) nitro motor.
Jason, how does it compare power and speedwise now to when it was run as a nitro boat?

Joerg

Hi guys ,

the hull is 33 1/2 inches long nose to prop, 9 1/2 inches wide and a shallow V

6s 2p , 2100 ma 20 c lipo

power, LOL's its quite good h34r:

its overspeeding the hull easy ... i ran it again with the packs shifted as far forward as i can get em and it still trys to wheelie above 3/4 throttle . the balance is real good but its just trying to lay down too much power .. :blink:

LOL's i just built it to have some fun with spare parts , its turned very serious and totally worth it .. its quite tricky to drive .

a 4 min test run used around 1200 ma, however that wasnt planted all the time ,(as much as i could)

im charging up and going for a run with a little -ve in the strut ,

update , well i set it up to run wet to the nose. it ran ok but the speedy didnt like the extra load.

if you want to run a heat trim , you would need a smaller prop .

the setup runs great with a real loose flighty ride. if you want a tight setup then a bigger speedy and a smaller prop would be in order.

a hydra 120 , will just completely blow the budget out , but will more reliable long term

Jason

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Joerg,

Your a funny guy. :lol: I do know what size a 21 hull is, I said nothing about 21 inches. Looking at his amp usage for 4 minutes gives me a good idea of how fast the boats running.

Joerg, why don't you just give it up already? I would think by now it's quite clear that no matter what you say it won't make a difference in what's happing here in the States. Other than a few of your cronies nobody is listening or agreeing with you. You should just concentrate on your secret international saw rules and go play with the guys that think they know better.

Jason, sorry about the hijack. Keep up the good work and have fun, sounds like your on your way to a fun boat!

Paul.

 

[JfromJAGs]

Paul, I don't know what's your problem, but you are right: you hijacked the thread. And as long as you don't pay your gambling debts, I don't take you seriously anyway.

Jason, I would'nt go smaller with the prop and as you got the motor and controller, you may want to try to run the boat only on 4 or 5s. Or you could try to get one of the Graupner carbon K props (a few US$) in 40/42mm size. These got a bit less pitch than the Octura X4 series. They are available with M4 and drive dog.

Joerg

 

[Darin Jordan]

He ran only 6 cells - but all in series, what makes more sence anyway.

Joerg,

the hull is 33 1/2 inches long nose to prop, 9 1/2 inches wide and a shallow V 6s 2p , 2100 ma 20 c lipo

I do believe he says he's running 2P here... which would be logical since this is the only safe way you'd get 2100 mah 20C Lipos to deal with the amps of this setup...

Jason,

Check out the following video clips:



The white boat (Brian Buaas's) is a 33" P-Mono, which uses 4S2P Lipos... This boat is WELL over 60mph in oval trim, and VERY drivable... After a complete race, the temps were all right at around 100-degrees, which is VERY nice indeed... especially considering the performance...

Motor is a Neu 1521 1.5D and ESC is a Castle Hydra 240... I can't recall the prop, but I think he mentions it in a previous post here...

 

[JfromJAGs]

My dear Darin,

there is a HUGE difference between 6s2p with a total of 4200mAh (a 50-60A setup) compared to what you guys run: 4s2p of 5000mAh cells (a 200A+ setup).

That's why Brian needs to run a motor and a controller which costs about 4 times more than what Jason installed (motor $330, controller $300, battery $500). On the other hand Jason has found that his setup is already almost too much for his 33" hull. Sorry, but it's just a ridiculous that you need a 240A controller for simple P mono now. Now keep on arguing with your big wallet setups, I'm out.

Joerg

 

[AlanN]

I would stick with a b/c prop or similar. You will be disapointed with the performance of a carbon fiber prop. They flatten out under load and high rpm.

Every nitro .21 I have ever seen can't hold a candle to what a decent 4s 2p can do. Heck I'd even wager a couple of 2s2p setups against a .21 hull. There is that much of a drastic difference. This has been proven at our pond and not just a bench test.

Jason, I always like the 3 bladed x4 series from Octura. To lessen the load on the motor though....detongue the leading edges.

Also.... a bit of trim tab (start with the left side one first) down can help keep the nose down. I try to run my struts fairly level with a tad of neg (down) trim. Try to let the trim tabs do the work for you.

I also suggest running the water cooling through the speed controller prio to the motor. It should help a little bit.

 

[AlanN]

My dear Darin, there is a HUGE difference between 6s2p with a total of 4200mAh (a 50-60A setup) compared to what you guys run: 4s2p of 5000mAh cells (a 200A+ setup).

That's why Brian needs to run a motor and a controller which costs about 4 times more than what Jason installed (motor $330, controller $300, battery $500). On the other hand Jason has found that his setup is already almost too much for his 33" hull. Sorry, but it's just a ridiculous that you need a 240A controller for simple P mono now. Now keep on arguing with your big wallet setups, I'm out.

Joerg

I would like to point out that once again Joerg is incorrect and that he does not race oval setups.

He does not have the experience with what we (Darrin Paul and others) do. If you would like to comment about your 1p philosophy start another thread. Jason has started in the right direction and we're just trying to help him along not start another red board arguement.

 

[Darin Jordan]

My dear Darin, there is a HUGE difference between 6s2p with a total of 4200mAh (a 50-60A setup) compared to what you guys run: 4s2p of 5000mAh cells (a 200A+ setup).

Jason,

I would suggest that the difference isn't all that "huge" when you factor in the fact that Brian's setups will actually survive in a heat racing environment, and that right from the start, you've had to purchase 4-more cells, or two 2S1P packs... and using 6S packs also means you need bigger chargers as well...

That's why Brian needs to run a motor and a controller which costs about 4 times more than what Jason installed (motor $330, controller $300, battery $500). On the other hand Jason has found that his setup is already almost too much for his 33" hull. Sorry, but it's just a ridiculous that you need a 240A controller for simple P mono now. Now keep on arguing with your big wallet setups, I'm out.
Joerg

And Joerg's prices are off...

Motor = $300.00 from Neu (-$30.00)

ESC = $254.00 from Tower ( minus an additional $25.00 if you use their internet discounts... so total is $225.00) (-$75.00)

Battery = 2 4S1P Neu 4900s @ $210.00 each = $420.00 (-$80.00)

Not a "cheap" setup, but when you factor in the fact that the batteries will hold up WAY longer in this configuration than if run as 1P, and certainly longer than NiMH would... Also will stay cooler than the noted setup because it won't push the boundries of acceptable amp draw... You won't be blowing up ESCs as there is plenty of cusion there, and the motor is bullet-proof and of the absolute highest quality... well... not too many people would argue that you certainly get what you pay for... and if it's a longer term investment, you'll be money ahead over a race season... Ahead of most of your competition as well...

Just my opinion... I have neither a "big wallet" nore the desire to spend money I don't have, but I've thrown away enough on "cheap" setups to know that quality costs a bit more, but pays off dividends in the end...

Also has higher resale value...

If you can get a bigger ESC, that's where I'd start, then go from there... Sounds like you're on the track to having some serious fun! I think it's cool that you did it with "a bunch of old parts" you had "laying around"!! B)

 

[raptor347]

In that video I was running an X646/3. Sharpened and balanced but otherwise stock.

The 240 amp rating is a bit misleading on this ESC. It will likely handle 240 amps on 2S, the instructions actually state that the warranty is void if you run 4S or higher (read the voltage cutoff chart in the programming section). So I'd comfortably put the continuous rating at ~125amps on 4S (just my viewpoint).

This combo would actually run well on 12 NiMH but it would be a battery killer. It's a lot of fun to drive! I can't wait to actually get it dialed in.

 

[Tofastformellow]

Wow guys , chill out ,.

YOU ARE ALL RIGHT !

i have run this motor /esc/ lipos for over 100 cycles in my helis. , the motor overheats in the heli , and the lipos have had better days

the parts are way way past their use by date and have been thrown in a hull for fun .

total cost of the boat was around $250Au total. period.

around here the super v 27 goes for around 800$Au with out batterys from the lhs. , just rediculous.

quote

Looking at his amp usage for 4 minutes gives me a good idea of how fast the boats running.

how many Ma's can it use when the hulls flying with positive attack and isnt even touching the water at all ??

the key to this setup is running loose , run it tight and the esc thermls even with quad pipe water cooling ....

quote

Jason, sorry about the hijack. Keep up the good work and have fun, sounds like your on your way to a fun boat!

no problem , its a fun project that may get some other people out on the water.

i am running 6s , because i have it on hand , but dosent higher voltage = lower amp draw overall??

quote

Jason, I would'nt go smaller with the prop and as you got the motor and controller, you may want to try to run the boat only on 4 or 5s. Or you could try to get one of the Graupner carbon K props (a few US$) in 40/42mm size. These got a bit less pitch than the Octura X4 series. They are available with M4 and drive dog.

Joerg

Thanks Joerg , i am a little humbled that you have taken your time to post here , i will playaround with props Thankyou ...

quote

The white boat (Brian Buaas's) is a 33" P-Mono, which uses 4S2P Lipos... This boat is WELL over 60mph in oval trim, and VERY drivable... After a complete race, the temps were all right at around 100-degrees, which is VERY nice indeed... especially considering the performance...

Motor is a Neu 1521 1.5D and ESC is a Castle Hydra 240... I can't recall the prop, but I think he mentions it in a previous post here...

Thats a good pace.

and should be a bullet proof setup. 60 mph sound reasonable.

and it looks to handle well..

but that motor is 450$+ au here

quote

there is a HUGE difference between 6s2p with a total of 4200mAh (a 50-60A setup) compared to what you guys run: 4s2p of 5000mAh cells (a 200A+ setup).

That's why Brian needs to run a motor and a controller which costs about 4 times more than what Jason installed (motor $330, controller $300, battery $500). On the other hand Jason has found that his setup is already almost too much for his 33" hull. Sorry, but it's just a ridiculous that you need a 240A controller for simple P mono now. Now keep on arguing with your big wallet setups, I'm out.

Joerg

yeah , thats sort of the theme here , just playing , i have enough expensive glow/gas boats already , this is just a fun runner, i know their is alot of ways to spend my money like my morgage / wifey .. LOL's

quote

Jason, I always like the 3 bladed x4 series from Octura. To lessen the load on the motor though....detongue the leading edges.

Also.... a bit of trim tab (start with the left side one first) down can help keep the nose down. I try to run my struts fairly level with a tad of neg (down) trim. Try to let the trim tabs do the work for you.

I also suggest running the water cooling through the speed controller prio to the motor. It should help a little bit.

yeah i have cupped the prop and it is a bit on the wild side. i will get another and chop it

quote

Jason has started in the right direction and we're just trying to help him along not start another red board arguement.

not trying to start a fight , i am just posting up what i have found to work in cheap parts. hopeing to rally some intrest.

and posting up what can be made from nothng.

quote

If you can get a bigger ESC, that's where I'd start, then go from there... Sounds like you're on the track to having some serious fun! I think it's cool that you did it with "a bunch of old parts" you had "laying around"!!

yes , that was the idea..the gear was all ready for the tip , so why not use it , rather than put it in a box in the shed, i chose to use it !

quote

and that right from the start, you've had to purchase 4-more cells, or two 2S1P packs... and using 6S packs also means you need bigger chargers as well...

all my helis use , 6 or 10s , so i bought nothing speacialy for this boat .. not even hatch tape.

Oh , sorry i did get a tube of sikaflex though ... LOL's 14$

i already have capable balancing charging systems for 22 lipocell ! x 5000 ma lipos already ... no problems here ... LOL's

sigh , you guys are all correct , i need to spend 340$Au on a hydra speedy to go faster wetter but it kinda blows my 250$ Au spend right out the door.

i will just leave it loose and have fun with props and balance....

i want to build one of those 1500$ new ones, but want and can are two different things

Jason

 

[Tofastformellow]

In that video I was running an X646/3. Sharpened and balanced but otherwise stock.
The 240 amp rating is a bit misleading on this ESC. It will likely handle 240 amps on 2S, the instructions actually state that the warranty is void if you run 4S or higher (read the voltage cutoff chart in the programming section). So I'd comfortably put the continuous rating at ~125amps on 4S (just my viewpoint).

This combo would actually run well on 12 NiMH but it would be a battery killer. It's a lot of fun to drive! I can't wait to actually get it dialed in.

whats up there ?

i though they were rated at 240 amps at 6s??

what ? thats a little misleading ..

bugger.

Jason

 

[raptor347]

In that video I was running an X646/3. Sharpened and balanced but otherwise stock.
The 240 amp rating is a bit misleading on this ESC. It will likely handle 240 amps on 2S, the instructions actually state that the warranty is void if you run 4S or higher (read the voltage cutoff chart in the programming section). So I'd comfortably put the continuous rating at ~125amps on 4S (just my viewpoint).

This combo would actually run well on 12 NiMH but it would be a battery killer. It's a lot of fun to drive! I can't wait to actually get it dialed in.

whats up there ?

i though they were rated at 240 amps at 6s??

what ? thats a little misleading ..

bugger.

Jason

Yes, it's a bit misleading. Unfortunately, I've found that none of the high-amp/small format (small FETs) are even close to the rated max current capacity at max voltage. It becomes a trial and error deal to find the limit of any given ESC (hence my reputation for cooking parts, but I know where the limits are ). My heat race setups are pretty much dead reliable.

The Castles work best with the Neu motors I run. There are more ESC options if you run 2 pole motors.

It would be nice if ESCs were rated by total watt handling capacity, the limits would be better defined right from the start.

 

[Andrewg]

Jason

Did you use the original or the XL motor from the Trex/ One of the guys the HV club used a similar setup in a Bandit 31" hull and cooled the esc and it did pretty well with very little development. In August the AMPBA Winter Spectacular at Sydney will have a class you can run in.

The AMPBA rules proposal which is currently being voted on has a limit of 150gm per "series cell" that might be 2x75gm cells in parallel or 1 x 150gm cell in 6S and 10S classes. Plenty of room to grow once things get established, the 15s esc's are here and the new Castles go as high as 95v. Because we are not processing so many amps we can get away with smaller motors and packs. A mild ie low timing 42mm prop 4S1P setup is totally competitive with 95% of 3.5 monos as long as the weight doesnt get excessive.

On the 15cc conversion, with our rules the weight of the boat is significant altho it isnt the limiter it was with Nickel. As long as you can keep the mass in the 6-7kg range and use a 10S pack, motor of approx 750gm running 750rpm/v you should be able to use good size props and still run in a 95-125 amp window and be competitive and as fast as 15cc boats. Or you could go out and harass the petrol boats.

Email me at [email protected] and I can send you Winter Spectacular details. Also I am sure the guys at Adelaide Model Power Boat Club would be eager to see your boat run. There are a few guys doing electrics in that club.

 

[BulletMaster]

as the guy that ran the TREX motor in an El-Lobo, performance was interesting, but ultimately the experiment failed. The motor got too hot when pushing the performance envelope. The boat ran much harder when I used the 6S TP5000X packs over the EWatts 4400 packs. Very surprised that the water-cooled Align 75A ESC held up to the task (they have a 100A 6S version out now). I will be probably using the El-Lobo boat as a 12 Cell NiMh hull, and as I now have a 33" and 29" Seaducer, will be playing with LiPo in those hulls.

Hopefully the AMPBA Electric rule vote will get up and we can start racing to some up-to-date technology.

What speed do you think yours was doing Jason?

 

[Tofastformellow]

as the guy that ran the TREX motor in an El-Lobo, performance was interesting, but ultimately the experiment failed. The motor got too hot when pushing the performance envelope. The boat ran much harder when I used the 6S TP5000X packs over the EWatts 4400 packs. Very surprised that the water-cooled Align 75A ESC held up to the task (they have a 100A 6S version out now). I will be probably using the El-Lobo boat as a 12 Cell NiMh hull, and as I now have a 33" and 29" Seaducer, will be playing with LiPo in those hulls.
Hopefully the AMPBA Electric rule vote will get up and we can start racing to some up-to-date technology.

What speed do you think yours was doing Jason?

just some of what i have found.

im running a case cooled overamped , stuffed bearinged 110 cycled old original "L" align motor.

im not going to guess speeds. i dont have a gun and my GPS is off getting repaired.

it cartwheels/ flat spins around 20 times if you try turn hard and backoff while its up and flying ... so thats my indication of speed , it went in on its back and split the FG hatch in half. so a hot speedy got watered down and smoked big time.

i am waiting patiently for a new speedy , and a tougher lid

the align gear is ok , you cant overload those motors at all , i run mine free and the motor stays stone cold.

(it is also case cooled), the align speedy likes the amps and is ok , i was running cooling on the top and the bottom of the speedy

as its got mosfets on both sides of the boards, however the align speedy does not like to get wet at all.

if you are trying to waste the motors energy by digging the hulls front to keep it on the water then i would say it will cook for sure..

just mount the running gear on the nose. and the batts where you run a normal nitro motor in the hull

i run my strut very high on the back of the boat , and neutral.

running on the tips of a x440x3 is the fastest prop i have run on the hull ,

but i have found running on the tips of a 215 at around 35K, to be much better for maintaining control of the boat.

the motor just screams. and loves it

the best thing i can pass on from what i have learnt about this one cheap setup.

.. let it scream and its not shabby .

problems start when you overload/overprop or expect to much from it. (its NOT a 700$ NUE/CC combo !!)

trying to keep the throttle nailed at peak rpm , is the fun part..LOL's

jase

 

[Andrewg]

Jase

thanks thats very similar to what Tony experienced before he settled the boat enough to enable it to race and then as you said with good power it got hot. The mass and structure of the motor mean it can only take high amps for so long. Those controllers tho can take a hiding I think Tony was putting 120 somethign through his 75 amper - not for long periods but its a hell of a lot given the ratings. I would like to see that motor esc combo take over as the new LSH motor under lipo rules. Much much chepaer than the nickel brushless setups

A Neu/CC setup for 6S should cost $737 unless you are an AMPBA member (in which case they are cheaper). The only guy I know who has raced comparable nitro (7.5 Seaducer/MAC) and electric (6S/H&M/Neu/CC/TP) monos at the same sanctioned event (and won 7.5), says the 6S setup is faster. A race who has run 7.5 (Mac) igger and 6S (Neu) rigger at the same event say the differences are very small - they were mainly related to the different handling of different hulls.

 

[Tofastformellow]

Thanks Andrew.

i have no doubt that a new motor esc combo will be great bang for the buck in any small hull class.

copule that with a 220$ brand new lipo set and you are looking at a good entry level setup.

Guys , Dont forget to fit a 100 amp fuse to the -ve lead to the battery . !!

i have been running old well used motors , but some fresh motors would really preform.

the align 70 amp controller runs 32 micro fets, and that gives some indication as to how under rated the contoller is.

it will take 120 amp spikes no sweat but it needs to run at 100% duty , it dosent like clipping (half throttle for long periods) and will soon fail if run under 100% for long periods.... at 100% it dosnet get above room temp..

the are a good combo in a fully sealed light free running hull.

in a few weeks i have done around a full seasons running and only one speedy failure , that was my fault ( bad driveing = water entry to hull)

i had some flexy time so i was running it 4 or 5 times a day ..

its not a 3080 lehner , but its a fun setup thats a challenge to drive

Jason