From the outside lookiing in

[Ron Olson]

I'm not trying to stir the pot here but just someone from the outside looking in.

I can see why the FE racers would want to compete against the gas and nitro racers. One thing that comes to mind to me is the lack of races that they have as they are far and few between. I only know of one in my area and that's the Michigan Cup race where I have met some of those posting in here. Trying to get equality that will attempt to make everyone happy is going to be the trick if the electric racers want to have a level playing field with the gas/nitro racers as someone's going to ***** about one or the other having an advantage.

What was considered a "National Event" race that I attended I was disappointed at the lack of racers in attendance as we have more that show up for a district race for us fuel burners. Mixing it up with us would be a way to get your boats out more often and have to travel a lot less farther.

Throw away the high points trophy. To me, that's a case in where "He who has the most boats wins!". When I saw a team show up that used one truck alone just to haul the boats, it gave me an idea as to who was going to have to make space for the trophy.

The "Mercy Minute" needs to go out the door also, we don't see that at the fuel races. That's just a case again of one person trying to enter too many boats/classes. If you're supposed to be watching your Li-Poly's while they're charging, how can you do this while you're busy running back and forth from the pit to the pond? The wife sitting there knitting isn't going to have a clue what to do in case of a fire.

These are just observations from the other threads in here and from one FE race that I've attended as a spectator.

Matt Higgins and I have talked at length also as to why there was so much coverage in RCBM for FE's or other electric powered boats and not much else about nitro, gas, sail, etc. and his reply was that there are more eletric boat owners than the others so thta's why they recieve more attention yet it doesn't show at the races/events.

My other reason for not getting into electric boat racing is the worry about Li-Poly fires, the lack of knowledge about what all of the numbers mean with not just the battery packs but now they've thrown brushless motors into the equation. I finally got the brushed motors figured out when they started the brushless motor introduction.

I can't be the only one on the outside looking in as we have new boaters and those that are electric-curious also.

I started this one to keep it separate from the other discussions going on right now.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this but try to be civil. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

 

[sjslhill]

Ron,

You bring up some good points. I now feel that LiPoly and BL is here and that's that. So, to me the best thing to do is follow the IMPBA and Paul's suggestions at http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?showtopic=18499

12 classes of racing with simple straight forward rules.

thanks,

Steve

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Ron,

Your assessment of FE racing is pretty much spot on. Actually other than a couple clubs it's worse than what you describe. Some of the clubs that hold races don't even have a scheduled club "series" and only put on the one event!

The "Mercy Minute" needs to go out the door also, we don't see that at the fuel races. That's just a case again of one person trying to enter too many boats/classes.

LMFAO!!!! Thanks for bringing that up, I'd get strung up for doing so. This is one of the things I love about racing the open classes with the nitro/gas guys. If your not ready, too bad!

Even though I'm trying my best to work IMPBAs FE program in a new direction I already have what I want. I can race until I drop in the open classes and personally I don't need to race anything else. I've found a home so to speak. BUT, I would like to see the FE program in general flurish, not for me personally but for the sport/hobby as a whole, like I said I've got my place to race.

My ideas in the POV post are a pretty radical change if your a FE racer but to date FE racing hasn't really progressed much in general. It's time to try a new direction and I really see only one way to do it.

Paul.

 

[sjslhill]

"My ideas in the POV post are a pretty radical change if your a FE racer but to date FE racing hasn't really progressed much in general. It's time to try a new direction and I really see only one way to do it."

That's an understatement....keep the ideas going Paul.

 

[HTV Boats]

I have been reading countless pages from the great Ferrette debates to just how simple it is to set up a FE tunnel. At best I am confused as I do not know all tha acronyms. This seems the most logical thread to jump in on. Where is FE going to grow? Your feeder system is right in front of you. GAS N Nitro racers. Racers is the key word here. We all have attics and garages with old hulls we'd love to convert and try FE. Gives us another classs to run. Now if the rules and classes are simple ABC, buy this motor, contoller and batteries were there. Once we get our asses handed to us by experienced FE guys were going to make a decission. Learn and get with the program or give the stuff thats now obsolete to our kids to play with. What will make that fork in the road directional is competition. Let us wet our apetite and were hooked. (no puns intended)

Now I love tunnels and the next guy wants a rigger and the next feels it should be 1/8 scale or a mono. Too many choices will just slow the evolution or kill it. Nothing worse than 3-4 boat heats where you win cause 3 boats DNF. I have taken 2nds and thirds in 30 plus boat classes and feel I really accomplished something. For me races like the CMB tunnel Nats are a must.

That said I have a working knowledge of electronics, was a radar and analog computer trained tech in the military. Two years of schools there. So why after all this plus I used to race carpet 1/12th scale cannot I figure out how to put a simple FE tunnel together? I have hulls and lowers and can fabricate a radio box. Whats stopping me is investing in equipment and batteries ang charging systems that will be obsolete before the paint drys so to speak. FE guys you have the knowledge or what will be fair and let ther guys who know how to run races do their thing. When electrics ran 20 mph no one cared. Now we see 100++++ and you stirred the pot. Its not us vs. you as we all respect that kind of performance and we want to learn. Only a handful of unlimited bank accounts are going to world class levels be it nitro,gas or FE. Racers make races and we all have fun. Keep competition on the water and reachable. No one is going to invest to get beat every time. Give us a shot at winning and were there. debate the LIPO's and make classes that make sense for the majority not the elite. The elite will rise out of numbers. Now if the turbine guys will just stay home for a few years till all this sorts out.

 

[Mike McKnight]

You know it's funny that this thread comes up right now.... I was just trading emails the other day with someone in my district that runs FE and he as asking about the possibility of running FE with fuel boats. If not running head to head then offering a few classes in addition to the fuel classes. FE here hasn't been running since some issues caused them to lose the only pond they were able to run on over a year ago. Personally, I welcome the chance to get the FE guys more involved in the district. So far they had a small series of races with very little contact others in the district and I am going to make every opportunityI can available so that they can join us fuel guys for a few races this year.

 

[Ron Olson]

It's great to see that the IMPBA is allowing some FE boats at the Internat's as this will help to generate some excitement and let the nitro boaters know what's going on in the FE world. To me, a trus Internat's or NAMBA Nat's race would have all classes represented but we all know that it isn't going to happen as you'd be looking at 2 weeks worth of racing easily.

I have no idea if host clubs for the IMPBA Gas Nat's or Electric Nat's get any money from the IMPBA for help in putting these events on. If they don't, why not?

 

[Mark Bullard]

It's great to see that the IMPBA is allowing some FE boats at the Internat's as this will help to generate some excitement and let the nitro boaters know what's going on in the FE world. To me, a trus Internat's or NAMBA Nat's race would have all classes represented but we all know that it isn't going to happen as you'd be looking at 2 weeks worth of racing easily.I have no idea if host clubs for the IMPBA Gas Nat's or Electric Nat's get any money from the IMPBA for help in putting these events on. If they don't, why not?

Ron,

They do, all they have to do is ask. I do not think it is as much as the Internats because of the size of the events.

Mark

 

[Mike Hughes]

Throw away the high points trophy. To me, that's a case in where "He who has the most boats wins!"

Ron Dist 8 has been giving out the high point trophy for as long as I can remember. Yes the guy with the most boat usually won it until a few years ago. We change it so now it is a 3 boat high point. It makes for some really good battles done to the last race. It does not matter which boat. Just your top 3 highest class points are added together. It made it so that more of the guys that don't have a large fleet can compete.

The "Mercy Minute" needs to go out the door also, we don't see that at the fuel races. That's just a case again of one person trying to enter too many boats/classes.

A few years back the dist 8 nitro guys ran the nats for the electric boys. After the first day of every heat someone yelling mercy minute they put a stop to that. There were not going to get all the heats in. They limited the mercy calls to 2. In the early 90's when I ran electrics there was no mercy minutes. You were there or not. That is the way it should be.

Mike

 

[drobie]

An alternate view...from the inside looking out. :blink:

I have just as much fun spending a weekend with 20 racers as I do with 65 or 100. Maybe more fun.

And I have just as much fun racing at 30 mph as I do at 50.

In addition, 3 races a season is plenty for me. I have a family and this isn't my only hobby or interest.

If there were a nitro race that I could race at every week within an hour's drive, I wouldn't go to any of them. I'm not alone in that position.

Bigger and better is bred into our culture, but 1,000 more electric racers wouldn't make it more fun for me. The only thing it might do is improve the variety of equipment available to us but we have a LONG way to go before the hobby business will cater to us as strongly as they do to cars and planes. That's just a characteristic of capitalism and free market economics.

Sorry guys.

 

[Andrewg]

Ron

Thanks for this post it gives me a insight into what the concerns of ICE racers are re electrics. Can I add “too fussy” & “Need to be simpler” & “Cost”.

We have been racing electric and nitro and petrol together at club and sanctioned events for over a year now. A couple of reflections.

Running with nitro is excellent competition. Generally the pool of expertise is much larger and the same size usually faster (but not always ). The ICE guys have generally been very helpful with setup and race technique. The race environment is mutually non-threatening but competitive just like it can be between gas and nitro when they run together. This makes it easy to trade knowledge and experience – that’s club days – Sanctioned events electric have their own races

A big help is that the ICE guys have been thru significant technological changes. With Lipo we are going through that now. We are often caught between a hull that was fast enough and a power plant that can go much faster. The experience of ICE racers is a great help in the short term and choosing a new hull.

Then there is the issue of race rules are now routine ICE rules for the 1/5 mile oval oval except we often run to the start using only a half lap mill. In “open hairdryer” as someone called it last week – that hasn’t been a problem. Electrics are a lot easier to launch as a group & on a crowded program its speeds things up a little. Altho not to the extent something like reforming rescue procedures has.

Lipolys are going to make electric racing much simpler. Forget the horror stories. They exist because people didn’t adopt the necessary precautions now taken for granted. Just like we don’t blow ourselves up with gasoline because we know to handle it appropriately.

Safety for Lipo is IMO actually simpler and more automated than for Nickel. The current generation of LiPo use charger/balancer units with alarm which let you know if there are problems long before anything serious occurs. We now use only a small proportion of the cell capacity, so they run cool and can recharge in max 30 minutes. The routine is not unlike the management protocol for ICE which need refilling. But no after-run!

Motors and esc’s you shouldn’t have to touch in a days racing or even a couple of months. “Air” doesn’t affect them. The motors are virtually maintenance free & the escs are reliable (In my case I can only blame the operator for any ESC problems I have had in the last 12 months!) It’s a plug and play routine. And then the cable has to be cleaned.

The big benefit of lipo is weight saving. This means traditional (fiddly and fragile) electric builds and hardware can be ditched and much stronger ICE techniques and equipment used. That means easy to remove engine mounts and components and proper radio boxes to keep stuff safe and dry. The boats are far more reliable and survive the higher speed crashes better than ever.

The main area I seem to get asked about by ICE racers is receiver packs. A few times I have been able to identify a problem which is preventing someone racing, sometimes before things come to grief. And I can generally get the better cheaper stuff because I know my way thru the morass.

And they come over and check things out and get me to fettle their kids electric boats or those ones they picked up on an OS trip and gradually more people are picking up multi fuel types – I have gas boats now – swapped em for electric plane motors! And the performance is picking up. We knocked 15 seconds off 12 cell mono over the last year and still they are improving & lipo 6S boats sit in the .21 to .45 performance range in mono (54mph) and rigger (75mph)....... and the cost is absolutley line ball right now.