Head volume measurement for EAP

[Sean Bowf]

What I have been trying to do, is measure the head volume with the plug installed, that I will use when I run that engine. I don't know how much of a difference different brands and models of plugs have, but since .01 CC can make a big difference in CR, I felt this was important. I even noticed the thickness of the washer on some brands of plugs is thicker than others. As an example, the OD plugs seem to have thicker washers.

Another user is telling me his EAP instructions say to measure head volume with the plug out. This does not make sense to me, since we run them with the plug in, it seems that this should be how you measure the volume, but maybe I am missing something...would not be the first time.

So...looking for input as to plug in, or plug out, when measuring head volume...and any other inputs.

This is how I do it:



Sean

 

[Rick Sowell]

Sean: I am glad you posted this topic, I have the program and that is the way I have been measuring it also, and I also got the same 0.20cc measurement with and O'donnel red glow plug. on my vegas motor. it was the first try at cutting and measuring a motor for me. lets see what others think of the way to measure this. Rick

 

[steve wood]

What I have been trying to do, is measure the head volume with the plug installed, that I will use when I run that engine. I don't know how much of a difference different brands and models of plugs have, but since .01 CC can make a big difference in CR, I felt this was important. I even noticed the thickness of the washer on some brands of plugs is thicker than others. As an example, the OD plugs seem to have thicker washers.

Another user is telling me his EAP instructions say to measure head volume with the plug out. This does not make sense to me, since we run them with the plug in, it seems that this should be how you measure the volume, but maybe I am missing something...would not be the first time.

So...looking for input as to plug in, or plug out, when measuring head volume...and any other inputs.

This is how I do it:

you have to do it with the plug in. use denatured alcohol , not water. i use .3cc needles on small motors.

i also lay the button down flat,whatever works for you.remember you have to add piston bowl volume, if there is one

 

[warlokboats]

where do you guys get the surenges from? i can get the body but not the needle.

 

[Martin Hamilton]

I got needle & syringe from a friend who is diabetic. Martin.

 

[Sean Bowf]

I got needle & syringe from a friend who is diabetic. Martin.

Same here...you would be surprised how many people are diabetic. I know of two of my friends...so there are probably more. One of them told me that he thinks the needles are not controlled...in other words he thinks you can go into walmart and get one.

I tried atwoods in their horse area...but there was not anything as small as .5 CC there.

use denatured alcohol , not water. i use .3cc needles on small motors.

i also lay the button down flat,whatever works for you.remember you have to add piston bowl volume, if there is one

Steve, does it matter what kind of alcohol? I need to go to to Wal-mart today anyhow to get some mineral spirits to clean the goop off the lathe... But would isopropol alcohol work or do I need to get denatured alcohol?? Any particular reason to use alcohol instead of water??

Sean

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

Sean,

Rubbing alcohol is best, denatured may remove the numbers on the syringe.

see pics, my basic setup for cc'ing

 

[Jerry Wyss]

I got needle & syringe from a friend who is diabetic. Martin.

Same here...you would be surprised how many people are diabetic. I know of two of my friends...so there are probably more. One of them told me that he thinks the needles are not controlled...in other words he thinks you can go into walmart and get one.

I tried atwoods in their horse area...but there was not anything as small as .5 CC there.

use denatured alcohol , not water. i use .3cc needles on small motors.

i also lay the button down flat,whatever works for you.remember you have to add piston bowl volume, if there is one

Steve, does it matter what kind of alcohol? I need to go to to Wal-mart today anyhow to get some mineral spirits to clean the goop off the lathe... But would isopropol alcohol work or do I need to get denatured alcohol?? Any particular reason to use alcohol instead of water??

Sean

The alcohol runs together better and doesn't bead up, plus it will cut any oil remaining on the button surface. Also flatten the point on the needle, I use a fine hard Arkansas stone.

Joe is right, that alcohol will remove the scale on the syringe, I'm careful about that part. Hey, check out the plug element cavity diff between a MC59 and a K&B 1L, might surprise you.

 

[steve wood]

I got needle & syringe from a friend who is diabetic. Martin.

Same here...you would be surprised how many people are diabetic. I know of two of my friends...so there are probably more. One of them told me that he thinks the needles are not controlled...in other words he thinks you can go into walmart and get one.

I tried atwoods in their horse area...but there was not anything as small as .5 CC there.

use denatured alcohol , not water. i use .3cc needles on small motors.

i also lay the button down flat,whatever works for you.remember you have to add piston bowl volume, if there is one

Steve, does it matter what kind of alcohol? I need to go to to Wal-mart today anyhow to get some mineral spirits to clean the goop off the lathe... But would isopropol alcohol work or do I need to get denatured alcohol?? Any particular reason to use alcohol instead of water??

Sean

The alcohol runs together better and doesn't bead up, plus it will cut any oil remaining on the button surface. Also flatten the point on the needle, I use a fine hard Arkansas stone.

Joe is right, that alcohol will remove the scale on the syringe, I'm careful about that part. Hey, check out the plug element cavity diff between a MC59 and a K&B 1L, might surprise you.

don't use rubbing alcohol. its got water in it.that's why i use denatured(get it in the paint isle). you can buy the syringes at any pharmacy.you may have to sign your name,no big deal.they are very cheap,when the lines come off i throw them out,and grab a new one

 

[Sean Bowf]

where do you guys get the surenges from? i can get the body but not the needle.

Some more info on this...I went to Wal-mart to get the mineral spirits and picked up some more syringes. The lady at the counter in the pharmacy gave me a little bit of a hassle until I asked the lady if I look like a drug addict. That got a chuckle out of the pharmacist working behind her and all was good after that... They did not want to break up a new box, but found some already broken. I think it was less then $2 for ten .3 CC, and less then $3 for ten .5 CC syringes.

Sean

 

[Geraghty]

where do you guys get the surenges from? i can get the body but not the needle.

Go to a vet and explain what you are doing....vets can sell you a syringes without a perscription...

 

[mark voorhies]

I got needle & syringe from a friend who is diabetic. Martin.

Same here...you would be surprised how many people are diabetic. I know of two of my friends...so there are probably more. One of them told me that he thinks the needles are not controlled...in other words he thinks you can go into walmart and get one.

I tried atwoods in their horse area...but there was not anything as small as .5 CC there.

use denatured alcohol , not water. i use .3cc needles on small motors.

i also lay the button down flat,whatever works for you.remember you have to add piston bowl volume, if there is one

Steve, does it matter what kind of alcohol? I need to go to to Wal-mart today anyhow to get some mineral spirits to clean the goop off the lathe... But would isopropol alcohol work or do I need to get denatured alcohol?? Any particular reason to use alcohol instead of water??

Sean

The alcohol runs together better and doesn't bead up, plus it will cut any oil remaining on the button surface. Also flatten the point on the needle, I use a fine hard Arkansas stone.

Joe is right, that alcohol will remove the scale on the syringe, I'm careful about that part. Hey, check out the plug element cavity diff between a MC59 and a K&B 1L, might surprise you.

don't use rubbing alcohol. its got water in it.that's why i use denatured(get it in the paint isle). you can buy the syringes at any pharmacy.you may have to sign your name,no big deal.they are very cheap,when the lines come off i throw them out,and grab a new one

A couple notes on checking head volume. Do use denatured alcohol, (put some red cooking dye in it to see it better),plug in

head for sure, mount head in a small vise, (by plug), level, lightly grease outside of head squish area and apply your plexy piece,

with 2 holes in that piece, one in center, the size of syringe, and another hole slightly larger and off center, not as far out as

squish area.This will let you fill head , with syringe full of alcohol,until it just comes out other hole. This gives you your liquid CC

measure. I've used this for years to get my cc measures for the EAP. A dish in piston also has to be included in your volume,

not easy to measure, but can be done , I would go with what estimates are on this measure, very slight, unless you really need

that.

 

[TERMINATOR]

I got needle & syringe from a friend who is diabetic. Martin.

Same here...you would be surprised how many people are diabetic. I know of two of my friends...so there are probably more. One of them told me that he thinks the needles are not controlled...in other words he thinks you can go into walmart and get one.

I tried atwoods in their horse area...but there was not anything as small as .5 CC there.

use denatured alcohol , not water. i use .3cc needles on small motors.

i also lay the button down flat,whatever works for you.remember you have to add piston bowl volume, if there is one

Steve, does it matter what kind of alcohol? I need to go to to Wal-mart today anyhow to get some mineral spirits to clean the goop off the lathe... But would isopropol alcohol work or do I need to get denatured alcohol?? Any particular reason to use alcohol instead of water??

Sean

The alcohol runs together better and doesn't bead up, plus it will cut any oil remaining on the button surface. Also flatten the point on the needle, I use a fine hard Arkansas stone.

Joe is right, that alcohol will remove the scale on the syringe, I'm careful about that part. Hey, check out the plug element cavity diff between a MC59 and a K&B 1L, might surprise you.

don't use rubbing alcohol. its got water in it.that's why i use denatured(get it in the paint isle). you can buy the syringes at any pharmacy.you may have to sign your name,no big deal.they are very cheap,when the lines come off i throw them out,and grab a new one

A couple notes on checking head volume. Do use denatured alcohol, (put some red cooking dye in it to see it better),plug in

head for sure, mount head in a small vise, (by plug), level, lightly grease outside of head squish area and apply your plexy piece,

with 2 holes in that piece, one in center, the size of syringe, and another hole slightly larger and off center, not as far out as

squish area.This will let you fill head , with syringe full of alcohol,until it just comes out other hole. This gives you your liquid CC

measure. I've used this for years to get my cc measures for the EAP. A dish in piston also has to be included in your volume,

not easy to measure, but can be done , I would go with what estimates are on this measure, very slight, unless you really need

that.

mark or steve can you call me and explain this thing to me about the eap and the way to use it? will it figure where i need to go for volume with the program or does it figurr compression ratio then you need to cut eitherway to make it right?

tk

 

[Sean Bowf]

I'm not Mark or Steve and am sure someone more in the know will chime in, but option B is the right answer. The EAP does not tell you what you need any setting at...it just tells you what it is. Then you change the numbers and see what it changes to. I see a lot of trial and error in my future...

Examples for CR...you get an engine that has a factory setting of .014 head clearance and measure it all out and put the numbers in the EAP. Then you lower the clearance to .010...the EAP will tell you what your new CR is. Another thing that changes CR is the port timing. So, as you cut the ports higher, your CR goes down. There is probably a happy spot in port timing and clearance where you can improve the performance of the engine without making a new head button. That is...you can set the head clearance closer, then put numbers in for your port timing until the CR goes back to stock. Then you have an engine with better timing numbers and the stock CR...

I look forward to see what other inputs the guys "in the know" have on this.

Sean

 

[steve wood]

I got needle & syringe from a friend who is diabetic. Martin.

Same here...you would be surprised how many people are diabetic. I know of two of my friends...so there are probably more. One of them told me that he thinks the needles are not controlled...in other words he thinks you can go into walmart and get one.

I tried atwoods in their horse area...but there was not anything as small as .5 CC there.

use denatured alcohol , not water. i use .3cc needles on small motors.

i also lay the button down flat,whatever works for you.remember you have to add piston bowl volume, if there is one

Steve, does it matter what kind of alcohol? I need to go to to Wal-mart today anyhow to get some mineral spirits to clean the goop off the lathe... But would isopropol alcohol work or do I need to get denatured alcohol?? Any particular reason to use alcohol instead of water??

Sean

The alcohol runs together better and doesn't bead up, plus it will cut any oil remaining on the button surface. Also flatten the point on the needle, I use a fine hard Arkansas stone.

Joe is right, that alcohol will remove the scale on the syringe, I'm careful about that part. Hey, check out the plug element cavity diff between a MC59 and a K&B 1L, might surprise you.

don't use rubbing alcohol. its got water in it.that's why i use denatured(get it in the paint isle). you can buy the syringes at any pharmacy.you may have to sign your name,no big deal.they are very cheap,when the lines come off i throw them out,and grab a new one

A couple notes on checking head volume. Do use denatured alcohol, (put some red cooking dye in it to see it better),plug in

head for sure, mount head in a small vise, (by plug), level, lightly grease outside of head squish area and apply your plexy piece,

with 2 holes in that piece, one in center, the size of syringe, and another hole slightly larger and off center, not as far out as

squish area.This will let you fill head , with syringe full of alcohol,until it just comes out other hole. This gives you your liquid CC

measure. I've used this for years to get my cc measures for the EAP. A dish in piston also has to be included in your volume,

not easy to measure, but can be done , I would go with what estimates are on this measure, very slight, unless you really need

that.

mark or steve can you call me and explain this thing to me about the eap and the way to use it? will it figure where i need to go for volume with the program or does it figurr compression ratio then you need to cut eitherway to make it right?

tk

you have to put in all the numbers to get the compression ratio.you have to have the exhaust timing,head clearance and head/piston volume to get the comp. ratio. you have to have tol/top,rod length,and tol/toe,to get the exhaust timing.i put in the head clearance i want,not what it is, cause it's always not what i want of course you gotta know what you want!

 

[Marty Davis]

where do you guys get the surenges from? i can get the body but not the needle.

If you are going to use methanol, you should put a piece of scotch tape on the syringe body to protect the graduations. The alky will clean it off completely.

I personally use coffee with cream as it is easy to see and does not destroy the markings.

Make a piece of plexiglass with a couple small holes in it and set the button flat or slightly slanted so that the fluid can go toward one of the holes.