Cornering on a tunnel.

[Grimracer]

Carl-the name came along after the introduction of the K&B 67 O.B.. Rod Geraghty and me were already talking about a boat and we wanted it to be a 40/60 boat and the name XT-460 was born. The boat performed great with a 67 engine with stock exhaust but that is about all the power it would handle. I have to disagree with you on the turning importance of a tunnel. Of course they need to turn well in racing but there is a lot more involved than just turning. I always set up my boats to run very loose (but under control) which meant better acceleration at the start and out of the turns. This is where most races are won. I also tried to make good starts and lived in lane-1-and nobody ever passed me in the turns on the outside. I still say if you cannot drive a free running tunnel with the throttle then you are not a good tunnel driver. If you have the boat set up tight enough to run wide open all the time then you are giving up performance. This might be different with today's engines but from what I have seen everything is still the same. When we were running K&b"s everything was a compromise. You gave up something in some areas to gain something in other areas.

BA BANG!

Now we are talking....

Grim

 

[Grimracer]

I so want to join in BUT know full well others, it appears dont.... except Tommy.... share my opinion.

The opposite of Darin. I feel if you CAN run WFO in the corners.. then you are likely going to be chasing a transom. But then.. I have this strange love affair with a throttle trigger!

Am I the man to beat them.. who knows.. I just like playing boats!

Grim

 

[Carl Van Houten]

I so want to join in BUT know full well others, it appears dont.... except Tommy.... share my opinion.

The opposite of Darin. I feel if you CAN run WFO in the corners.. then you are likely going to be chasing a transom. But then.. I have this strange love affair with a throttle trigger!

Am I the man to beat them.. who knows.. I just like playing boats!

Grim

Its hard to argue with the guy that has the fastest 2 lap times of all time... Darin has everybody covered anywhere on the track. If you have enough sped to hold off the guy behind you and you can corrner better than he can, the only thing you have to do at that point is finish 6 laps lane one laps and its over.

 

[Darin Jordan]

I would characterize my FE setup as maxed in the straights, AND can corner at WOT... If you have to LIFT to enter the turn, which pretty much EVERYONE else has to do, I'm gone... NOT SAYING anyone else here is WRONG, just saying that's what seems to work for me. IT's how my Lynx, and also my Dragon, were setup and worked.

NOW, all that said, I literally copied my setups onto two other Lynx's and SHARED my setup with anyone who has asked, and nobody has been able to really get close. Maybe I just got lucky??



There is CLEARLY more to be had here, just by learning to drive and getting my timing down for the additional speed, but I don't think the hull was "stuck".

Previous to this run, I had tried additional timing, which increased the straight-line speed. Caused me to have to lift in the turns a bit to set the nose back down. Lost me over 1-second. Dropped the timing back down, focused on trying to drive a tight line (yes, believe it or not, it WAS worse), and ran the 22.7...

I know it gets dismissed due to this being FE (though, if you actually SAW the power system I was running as 4-Cell P-boat, you'd probably all think it was WAY too small), but I think the point about actual speed and handling still remains.

If you pull me by a couple of feet down the straights, but I exit 10 feet in front of you coming out of 2, what did all that extra speed really gain you???

 

[Grimracer]

There are many ways to qualify a good run.. I dont follow RT stuff.. I have NO IDEA who has done what. I do however LOVE a good race. Side by side.. otherwise. I will just fly my RC junk.

To me a good run is not even a win. Just to be out boating with my buddys is more then a win to me.

Then.. having a conversation with those that know the difference between the way one says FAST or FAST.. then you know your in good company.

Tommy.. Carl and Darin.. thanks for all you have done for the hobby!

Grim

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Carl-the name came along after the introduction of the K&B 67 O.B.. Rod Geraghty and me were already talking about a boat and we wanted it to be a 40/60 boat and the name XT-460 was born. The boat performed great with a 67 engine with stock exhaust but that is about all the power it would handle. I have to disagree with you on the turning importance of a tunnel. Of course they need to turn well in racing but there is a lot more involved than just turning. I always set up my boats to run very loose (but under control) which meant better acceleration at the start and out of the turns. This is where most races are won. I also tried to make good starts and lived in lane-1-and nobody ever passed me in the turns on the outside. I still say if you cannot drive a free running tunnel with the throttle then you are not a good tunnel driver. If you have the boat set up tight enough to run wide open all the time then you are giving up performance. This might be different with today's engines but from what I have seen everything is still the same. When we were running K&b"s everything was a compromise. You gave up something in some areas to gain something in other areas.

Tommy, The XT-460 was the boat to beat and was years ahead of all of us in the day. I remember going home after getting my A$$ handed to me many times from the XT along with many others. That was a great boat for sure. A lot has changed since then though. I will give you a challenge if you are up for one?

You go pull down your best XT-460, blow the dust off of it and hang a 7.5cc mod o/b engine on it, pick out your best driver and meet me in Huntsville at the time trials. I'll donate $50.00 to the host club if they agree to let us have an old fashion best 2 out of 3 (3-lap) run to see if there have been any improvements made to the 40 class tunnel boats. I have mine hanging in the shop and ready to go right now. THIS WILL BE FUN!!!!

 

[SayMikey]

There are many ways to qualify a good run.. I dont follow RT stuff.. I have NO IDEA who has done what. I do however LOVE a good race. Side by side.. otherwise. I will just fly my RC junk.

To me a good run is not even a win. Just to be out boating with my buddys is more then a win to me.

Then.. having a conversation with those that know the difference between the way one says FAST or FAST.. then you know your in good company.

Tommy.. Carl and Darin.. thanks for all you have done for the hobby!

Grim

Well said Pony tail

 

[Tommy Lee]

Carl-your little challenge is a cheap shot and I think you know it but I should expect no less from you. I have not owned a 460 in many many years and the only driver I would want to race you would be me but I am physically unable to do that. I guess you will have to find another way to promote your "boat business". Seems that's the only reason you use this forum anyway.

 

[Darin Jordan]

Then.. having a conversation with those that know the difference between the way one says FAST or FAST.. then you know your in good company.

Grim

I find that part good as well, but for some reason, when Tunnel guys (not me, but the ones that actually KNOW what's what), get together, they seem to be pretty shitty to each other.

This medium of exchanging words doesn't seem to help either.

Kind of disheartening.

In the meantime, I'm just in this to have fun.

Win or lose, I still smile and want to share a beer.

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Carl-your little challenge is a cheap shot and I think you know it but I should expect no less from you. I have not owned a 460 in many many years and the only driver I would want to race you would be me but I am physically unable to do that. I guess you will have to find another way to promote your "boat business". Seems that's the only reason you use this forum anyway.

Hey, I enjoy a challenge. It's what keeps me loving tunnels. Don't take it personal Tommy, I just think it would be fun to race the old and new to see how they stack up. Like Auburn and Alabama football. I'm sure there would be plenty of people that would love to see that too. I think that tunnels have come a long ways over the years. I have never had an issue with you personally but now I plan to hang it out if you bring something to throw out there.

My challenge is still on the table.

-Carl

 

[BradSpencer]

Toooo funny, yet so true

 

[Andy Greene]

Sad isnt it Brad,

Look , Im NOT saying Ron and Carl are not doing a good thing for the whole of tunnel racing in general , in fact quite the opposite- I encourage it, its in every racers best interest.

What I have been vocal about lately from an outsiders perception - and I am that, Is , the forum - on this subject - seems to have several sets of rules and certain parties " appear " to have those rules less enforced on them at times. Because one party appears on the outside to be " doing nothing wrong for all the right reasons " doesnt mean its okay for them to do things others cant do on this board.

Thats my rant, gonna go build a rocket and let you folks carry on . I was enjoying the cornering talk- good stuff

 

[Marty Slater]

I am thinking asked an answered

thanks Tommy for where we are TODAY

marty

 

[Grimracer]

All i see is a stake being drove in.

Carl. if you want to call out (Challenge) Tommy to a dual maybe a PM would be the way to do it?.. just a thought. Not saying you should or should not.. just a thought. Again.. and I MEAN IT.. THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR KNOWLEDGE!

Tommy. Please dont let this kind of stuff discourage you from joining in. we NEED YOU HERE!

Kind regards to all!

Grim

 

[LohringMiller]

Carl-the name came along after the introduction of the K&B 67 O.B.. Rod Geraghty and me were already talking about a boat and we wanted it to be a 40/60 boat and the name XT-460 was born. The boat performed great with a 67 engine with stock exhaust but that is about all the power it would handle. I have to disagree with you on the turning importance of a tunnel. Of course they need to turn well in racing but there is a lot more involved than just turning. I always set up my boats to run very loose (but under control) which meant better acceleration at the start and out of the turns. This is where most races are won. I also tried to make good starts and lived in lane-1-and nobody ever passed me in the turns on the outside. I still say if you cannot drive a free running tunnel with the throttle then you are not a good tunnel driver. If you have the boat set up tight enough to run wide open all the time then you are giving up performance. This might be different with today's engines but from what I have seen everything is still the same. When we were running K&b"s everything was a compromise. You gave up something in some areas to gain something in other areas.

Tommy, The XT-460 was the boat to beat and was years ahead of all of us in the day. I remember going home after getting my A$$ handed to me many times from the XT along with many others. That was a great boat for sure. A lot has changed since then though. I will give you a challenge if you are up for one?

You go pull down your best XT-460, blow the dust off of it and hang a 7.5cc mod o/b engine on it, pick out your best driver and meet me in Huntsville at the time trials. I'll donate $50.00 to the host club if they agree to let us have an old fashion best 2 out of 3 (3-lap) run to see if there have been any improvements made to the 40 class tunnel boats. I have mine hanging in the shop and ready to go right now. THIS WILL BE FUN!!!!

Actually, the fastest XT-460 I've seen was Brian Buaas' boat with 6S electric power. It raced Alfred Lanza's XT-460 with mod nitro power in the Grand Prix a few years ago. It was more reliable and even faster. Below is a picture of my (not as fast) version.

Lohring Miller

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Tunnel boat design has come a long way in the last twenty years. People who say otherwise need to break out there twenty year old boats and come race with some of the new tunnels. A lot of the differences in these new boat designs are how they go through the turns.

Making progress in this area takes a lot of trial and error and not many boaters are interested in spending time studying this because to tell you the truth most people just want to buy something that has already been refined and go drive it around the track without ever knowing what is actually making one boat better than another.

Let's take the new Nova Rossi 46 for instance. If you had this engine back twenty years ago, you would smoke every single 40 tunnel in the field and take out most of the 60's. My driving partner has been racing since the 80's and he called me the other night saying that his 46 is the fastest and most fun tunnel he has ever owned and that he never thought he would own a mod 40 that was so much fun to race and that he has yet to burn out the original plug that he put in his engine when he took it out of the box. We both looked at the head the other day and it still looks like chrome.

This engine is so powerful that our original setups would not get through the corners and there was nothing we could do that would work both in the turns and also work down the straights. I scratched my head many nights in my shop trying to harness this engine in the corners and finally after talking to other veteran racers I put together a setup that works. However, this setup is tender and if you are out there with 3 or 4 boats with light wind, you will probably be able to hang it out but if you have 6 or 7 boats out there and moderate wind you probably won't finish if you get too happy on the trigger.

Back in the day K&B ruled the waters if you had an engine that was fast, you were one of the ones praying that it didn't explode every time you ran it and if you were going to have any hopes of winning that race, you had to get it all because Tommy Lee was going to be there and if you were going to stay on the same lap with him, you had to practically abuse your engine. BUT, let's remember that racing speeds back then were nothing like they are now in the 40 tunnel class. If you have not been to any large races you may not realize this. These days we have 20 Tunnels that are running as fast as the 40's were back in the K&B days.

Getting a tunnel boat to glide through the turns under power and without milking the trigger to settle it down is all in the design of the boat and it is at this point where the design and overall setup comes into play. The attitude of the boat at the end of the straights determines what you have to do to get the boat to make its transition. If you have a boat that is trying to blow up like a kite down the straights you will most likely find that the more refined models that don't require letting off the trigger at this point are slipping past you in the turns because you will be jacking around on your radio trying to get your boat to take set instead of turning. If you are lucky enough to own a tunnel boat that can get past this point with no real detrimental effects in speed, then there is a different set of things that come into play to get you through the turn without your boat hooking into the infield or slipping lanes trying the get past the middle pin. This may seem easy but its a fine line that you have to stay on top of in order to make all these things happen correctly and at the right time.

When someone says that there has not been any progress made on tunnel boat design it really doesn't make me mad. If you know me, you most likely have never seen me mad because there is very little that upsets me at all. When others are slinging radios and running around like their hair is on fire at races I wonder if they are really having as much fun as I am. Probably not.

When someone says that there has not been any changes in tunnel hulls in the past 20 years, what I say to this is; bring it and show me. I love a challenge. After all I must, I have been fooling around with tunnel boats since 1979 and anybody in there right mind would never put that much time into one thing.

I hope that you guys out there understand that this sport is still fun even though old guys like me and Tommy may have a "keyboard stand off" every now and then at the end of the day, we have had a lot of fun racing over the years. Like the movie "Grumpy Old Men" LOL.

I live in the turns. That's where a lot of untapped advantage is because that is definitely not the low hanging fruit of tunnel hull design. If you're going to design a competitive tunnel boat you have to understand and know how to manipulate your boats geometry in order to achieve certain desirable characteristics and with the new power we have, I am having to build a new mold to capture my new changes right now.

Have tunnel boats changed over the last 20 years? My answer to that is YES!

And what works this year will most likely not be competitive 20 years from now but that's something you young racers will have to figure out because I may not be around to see all that.

Bring it...Show me.

Still having fun,

-Carl

 

[Grimracer]

Of course they have changed.. I dont personally know ANYBODY who contends that..

Are the older still competitive.. sure.. are they modern.. nope. Is newer better.. sure.

The VS1 is now 20 years old and I remember seeing the band new prototype boat at the 1999 Internats in the back seat of a car... who was that southern genital man that showed me that boat............?

I have a new tunnel design that is 3 years old now.. its just keeps starring at me from the shelf as it too gets older. lol It will proly be outdated by the time it see water..lol

Grim

 

[Geraghty]

I am probably going to regret this but here goes....

I have been reading this daily and once again it surprises me that no one is interested in or even considers learning the science of why a tunnel boat turns....

All they want is simple answers and the best answer is "everything" is a compromise in tunnel boat design...

I know Tommy understands the science [physics] that causes a tunnel boat to turn but I can only think of maybe [2] other model boaters that "really understand "

the science and how to apply it to tunnel boats....

The funny thing about this "science" is it also applies to hydros and monos as well....and......once you truly understand it ....it is all so simple......

Go to Google and search Coanda,Bernoulli and the specific gravity of water and what it takes to sink a sponson in said water...... There are about a hundred You Tube videos explaining these laws of physics ......

Hint#1... If you take the time to truly understand this science ....remember ....the bottom of the boat is the only thing that touches the water.....

Darin.....There is a big difference between nitro and FE tunnels....when you start talking setups the two tunnels are apples and oranges...

Your FE tunnels have the same torque at [1] RPM as [40000] RPM....Nitro tunnels build torque commensurate with RPM...."no RPM,no torque".....

Your tunnels are running tight and the torque you have in your power plants are allowing you to do that....

I am not interested in answering a bunch of questions on this forum...I hate keyboarding.... I suck at it....

Call me if you have questions....I am easy to find... I have had the same number for 25 years.....

Back when I started building model tunnels I had somebody explain to me the science....I ain't no genius and I didn't come up with this all on my own....

I will take credit for the stumble blocks in the tunnel....They were a result of understanding the science and how to apply it to tunnel boat turning......

 

[Grimracer]

Rod,, thank you for your lessons.

I for one have learned a TON..

Grim

 

[Grimracer]

Come to think of it.. Rod might enjoy looking at my new tunnel boat design.

We will have to get together soon and chat boats.

Grim

P.S. Tommy made some of the most eye pleasing boats I have ever seen. NOBODYS designs come close. (I have seen MANY more then the few styles he has sold over the years). Prototypes, one offs.. man.. over the top in styling and function!