Stationary High Velocity Test Tank

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spd-props

Active Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Messages
34
Greetings all...

I have been doing a lot of research on a Stationary High Velocity Test Tank. I have found a pump to move just over 400 gallons of water per minute. The tank I want to build is 8 feet long and 20 inches wide. The ends will be rounded to remove the square corners. The speed will be measured by a actual boat speedometer (Baja makes a speedometer that will measure up to 100 MPH......I know that the measurement wont be dead-on, but for comparisons, it should do the job). My thought is to move the water at a measured speed, say 40 MPH, then with the boat attached to a set of offset fishing line lanyards (this will also let the boat change attitude on its own without any secondary influences on how the boat sits). The boat will be on plane, with the motor idle. As the motor speed increases, the lines will still be tight, because the water is moving past the boat faster than the motor is pushing it . At full throttle, As the boat attempts to move forward and comes to the same speed as the water moving past it, (in this case 40 MPH) the lines will just begin to sag. Then that is the maximum speed. If the lines do not get slack at full throttle, than the water is moving to fast, or if the lines slack before full throttle, the water is moving too slow and needs to sped up in order to give the boat full throttle and measure the actual top speed. This setup also seems to lend itself to measuring attitude and prop wash. ( I didn’t mention this before, but in the sides, I will router out an opening and put plexi-glass at the water line to make it possible to view the attitude of the boat and the prop wash up close. I understand that boat stuff is not rocket science, but I have come a long way so far and I need a way to be able to see the affects different props have on the boat. The props JD tested this spring were running at about 30 - 33 MPH, the ones I am doing now, have clocked at 51.( the test boat is a prototype TS2, I do not know how different the production version is but when money permits I will try one of those) I have several more ideas to try and with winter upon me I guess I HAVE to move into the garage. Once I hammer out the best props to use under controlled conditions, then those props can be run and clocked properly to get the real-world speed

I do not know if anyone has done anything like this before but I MUST do it. My wife has a new job at UPS in the evening and the weekends are filled with family time, yard stuff, errands, and soon enough...cold and rather stiff water in Ohio will end it all for the winter. I haven’t run a test on my props in over a month............ Not to mention that I found it nearly impossible to get decent water conditions for any length of time, in order to compare minor differences. I feel it would be very convenient to roll the tank out side, fire up the water pump and see what happens. No car rides, no hauling box after box of stuff to the dock.

so, any helpful thoughts or outright insults? If you think I am headed in the (generally) right direction, All I need to do is cut some sticks and glue em' . If you don’t , PLEASE let it fly.... Before I drop $1200 on the pump alone, I thought I would bring my idea to most knowledgeable boaters on the net.

Thanks for reading this novel; I hope to see your input.

Steve Deryck SPD-PROPS
 
If you going to use a tunnel for your test bed there is somethng you forgot. It is a tunnel. Part of what makes it work is the air flowing under the the boat. Not sure what result you will find with a boat that will not act like it does in the real world. Even if you try a different hull, air flow is still a factor.

Mike
 
Moving it into the garage will present another problem, the exhaust gases will fill it quickly even with good ventilation. You'll need to place a sheet over the back of the boat to control the water spray from the roostertail otherwise you'll soon have a lot of water all over the place. If you decide to plunk down the money, make sure that we get to see it when you're done.
 
My suggestion: Spend your money on fuel and spend your Winter preparing props, boats and back up parts.........then when Spring arrives, spend every hour you can at the pond.

There is no substitute for Real Life! :)
 
Mike:

I thought about air a little, but as a newbie, certainly not enough. I looked at a large 5 horse commercial leaf blower, high velocity fans, and furnace blowers. The biggest problem I could come up with was how to evenly distribute the air to maintain even channel of airflow. The first two options allow for variable air speed and measuring air speed is not hard or expensive. Perhaps with a transitional adapter I could change the 6 X 6 opening of the leaf blower into a 3 x 20 channel, to match the tank width, and still be able to achieve air speed of over 80 MPH. certainly an area for more thought. This addition, although adding 500 bucks to cost, is not difficult to apply to the platform, making it work is another story.... Thanks for the tip, Very obvious and i certainly under estimated the importance but That’s why I am asking you guys.

Ron:

The platform frame will be made of metal, allowing casters to be welded to the bottom. This will make it moveable. When operating, I would have to move it outside to run it. The added headache of trying to manage the water spray and exhaust of the boat, water pump, and now the blower, make it a necessity to let the water fly and keep the gases out side. But in the winter, a couple hours out side, at home should make access to tools, parts and liquid water easier and faster than waiting until spring comes.

I really did not want to type a multi page explanation of my idea, but I have had several PM’s that made excellent points based on what I did write. Tank shape, water issues, and such. I am not an engineer, but there are many calculations for volume, area, and velocities. Not to mention the design. I very much appreciate the time you have taken to add your thoughts of experience and knowledge.

Andy:

You are right. That is the best option. But as necessity is the father of invention, I do have to time, or the right to neglect my responsibilities to my family in order to make a fast boat prop. I work 10 hours M-F and 5 on Sat. I just do not have time to test props in the traditional manner. By making a tank, I could setup and run the boat in about 15 minutes. It takes me 20 to drive to water and that doesn’t include loading, and unloading the truck, prepping the boat and getting it into the water at the pond.

I could, possibly, run a prop remove it and alter it and reinstall it in about 15 minutes. Eliminating the need for multiple duplicate props with minor differences to see which works better. This may seem a minor point, but as I want to measure L E angle edge differences and T E angle differences independently and relative to each other. With my grinder, I can alter these very quickly (once the grinder is set to match the specific prop pitch). And doing this at home will speed up the testing process. I do understand that this entire setup will not in any way duplicate the reality of the real thing (like cross wind, wakes from other boats, chop, etc) but by testing in a controlled environment, I will be able to measure and experiment with unusual situations. One situation I am interested in is static thrust pressure. By shutting off the water pump, and attaching a linear pressure gage to the rear of the boat, I will be able to see how much thrust is produced at take off in inch/pounds. Or at speed, say perhaps ½ or 1/3 throttle, then hitting full throttle (seeing how much additional thrust pressure is produced) very roughly simulating powering out of a corner and what works better. I know this is not even close to the real thing, but I don’t know of anyone else that can get that kind of information (close to the real thing or not), by running on the pond. Once these 2 most basic and important properties are refined, and then I can look at cutting, cupping, and tipping.

By attempting to reduce variables related to thrust pressure (speed and power) this leaves more time to refine setup and puts a bit more emphasis on driver skill.

It really isn’t my intention to over analyze or make things more difficult than they need to be.

But someone has to stir the pot……………..
 
I think it would be great for prop testing. As Mike mentioned, the air flow over the boat is important, not so much because of drag, but because of lift. With the latest electric motors, it would be possible to setup a stand to measure thrust and torque produced by the prop. This would make a clean (but probably wet) test stand.

Lohring Miller
 
I think it would be great for prop testing. As Mike mentioned, the air flow over the boat is important, not so much because of drag, but because of lift. With the latest electric motors, it would be possible to setup a stand to measure thrust and torque produced by the prop. This would make a clean (but probably wet) test stand.

Lohring Miller

I guess since I wont be able to go swimming, I will need to get wet one way or another :D

Steve
 
I have driven full size boats in white white water and it is not the same as driving that same boat over standing water. Running a boat in water that is moving only 5-6 miles per hour (not 40 MPH) you can feel through the steering wheel, the vortices of water pushing and pulling on the lowerunit, prop and boat hull around.

Even without all the technical issues that will come alone with your tank project, water that is being forced thru a tank as compared to the same setup in standing water will not give you the same test results.

I vote: Go to the pond to test.
 
Steve,

The water leaving the pump would be very turbulent, you need the water to be practically 'still' when it hits the prop and hull for meaningful testing, ie the water should all be moving at the same speed at least in that area. In wind tunnels for race cars quite a lot of work is done to ensure the air in the area of the test vehicle is as free as possible from tubulence. It may not be possible to achieve this with water. The turbulence issue thus also applies to any blower you use in trying to simulate air flow as well.

I have put a bit of thought into test tanks for props before. I think I came up with a reasonable solution in theory, but in practice it could be quite difficult/expensive/dangerous to build!

Ian.
 
Steve,

Dozens of top level r/c boaters around the world have spent their lives studying and testing props.

I personally have spent 32 years of my life cupping, reshaping, cutting, silver soldering, measuring, driving the boats to test the props, getting feed back from hundreds of other boaters, reading Naval engineering papers, talking to full size prop gurus, reading everything and anything that has to do with props, hanging off the transoms of full sized boats to watch prop action/reaction, studying underwater video of props at work, studying cavitation/ventalation patterns on blade surfaces and on and on.......

I think you could spend the next ten years in your garage to learn a LITTLE of what some of us aready know now. That is fine if that's what you want to do.

If your end goal is to design the best boat prop ever, then that is great. I just know that more than 80% of your future knowlege will come from sources other than your test tank.

I'm not knocking your idea, I too spent years thinking of several different test tank possibilties including all the devices to measure forces on 5 axises and collecting data for thrust/energy ratios and so on.

But in the end I decided going to the boat pond was more fun.

To each his own! :)
 
Steve,

I think your plan to build a tank is great. To gather info on L E & T E , PITCH ECT. don't worry about air, water turbulance. Gather the info you think you need THEN go to the lake & test, test, test.

Don :) :) :)
 
I'll agree with Ian with laminar, turbulant, and static water/air conditions.

Another issue is that the launch and acceleration is not simulated. Even if was then the props would only be good for SAW. How to simulate a turn would be the next step.

I think........go to the pond.
 
The other factor that's making testing at the pond a more exact science is data loggers. Now that there are small, low cost units available, an amazing amount of information can be gotten just by knowing the rpm around a course. All the things control line speed builders found out with tachs and test props can be done in real boating conditions. This is really useful when you're working in an untested area. Knowing the rpm and peak speed allowed us to select props and adjust our gas rigger to get from 90 to 110 mph. It doesn't sound that hard, but we tested dozens of ideas to find a few that really mattered. Quickdraw's engine development was a major factor. We started with a 6 1/2 hp engine and ended with an engine making over 8 hp. A data logger can give the same information as a dyno for this. Tiny changes in the rudder accounted for big speed increases. Sponson design was also important. Finally, no matter how hard we tried to copy Andy's props, his were always a few mph faster than ours.

Lohring Miller
 
I suppose the "Stationary High Velocity Test Tank" is an example of "More than one way to skin a cat." However, I could never figure out what I would do with a "skinned cat."

JD
 
Speaking of Crocodiles! Did anyone see the 21 footer they found swimming down a New Orleans street last Friday?
 
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