Pinewood Derby cars

[nitrotoys]

Nephew wants a fast car, Any things I can do to go faster?

Last year I polished the axles, and trued the wheels in a lathe.

Had weight in the back, just in front of the rear axle.

He made states but lost in round 2.

Anyone know of anything else i can do?

Thanks

Tom

 

[Mike Byer]

Friends have spent a lot of time on this project, thin tires are fast, only 3 tires on the track is good, hollowing out the inside of the hub where the axle fits thru so there isn"t contact on the entire axle is better, but the best one was extending the nose of the car 2", so that it had an automatic head start.

Mike B

 

[DJT]

I used to work in a hobby shop so I heard about many things to do. I don't know if these all work or not but here goes. The less in contact with the ground the better, three wheels down one lifted clear of the track. On the same line as that, true the wheels to a point in the center so they run on a thin strip of material. Max out the weight, whatever the limit is use it. Wheels straight, wheels straight, wheels straight, but I was also told that just a touch of toe in helps them track straight so they don't bounce off of the walls on the way down the track. Only dry lube on the axles (graphite, teflon, molibdunum (check my spelling i'm sure it's wrong)) oil has to much surface tension. And a killer paint job, they usually have a concours trophy too. Hope this helps. I guess Mike B beat me to most of this.

 

[Mike Hughes]

Armorall on the axles worked great for me. I do believe they don't allow it, but hard to prove. Just make sure you get all the excess off with a rag.

Mike

 

[Joe_Knesek]

Armorall on the axles worked great for me. I do believe they don't allow it, but hard to prove. Just make sure you get all the excess off with a rag.Mike

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Mike, the first line in a Scout oath is "On my Honor". Showing the boys how to cheat isn't really the objective.

This is what my son and I did & they are all legal. My son won @ the regional level 4 years in a row. Our state did not have a state race.

1. Turn the nails on a lathe to cut the flashing off. Take off as little as possible because reducing the diameter of the axle makes the wheel flutter.

2. Cut the inside of the head @ a 5 degree angle to reduce the contact area on the wheel.

3. Polish the axle with 1 micron paste.

4. (If you have access to a lathe, use it. The scout mandrel is no good unless you modify it.) Locktite a piece of brass tubing over the mandrel to create a pocket to hold the outside of the wheel hub.

5. Index the madrel with a dial indicator before you mount the wheel.

6. Index the screw head once it's mounted.

7. Cut just enough off of the O.D. to clean it up to make sure you keep it above the minimum O.D. True the inside edge of the wheel. This is more important than you may think. I'll explain later. Don't worry about polishing the outside of the wheel.

8. Instead of using the slots on the block, flip the block over and drill individual holes for each axle on the top of the block with a 5 degree camber. This allows the wheel to run on the inside edge of the wheel and offers the least rolling resistance. it also keeps the wheel in alignment.

9. Extend the wheel base as long as the rules allow.

10. If your rules allow it, paint section of the block that the wheel contact the body with "Slip Plate". This is a paint with a graphite base. It can be polished to an extremely slick surface.

11. When placing the axles in the block, use a .030 feeler gauge to set all of the wheels to the same depth.

12. If you can find it, use the BSA graphite in the blue tube. it's much better than the teflon or any other graphite we found.

13. If the rules allow, make hub caps out of round stickers. This will hold in the graphite. The graphite also sticks to the glue creating a bearing for the nail head to role on. It keep's the wheel in alignment and makes the car run true.

14. Add the weight as far back as possible to take advantage of the pondelem effect caused by the track's transition. Hollow out as much of the front of the car to make it as light as possible.

15. Using a level glass surface of at least 5 feet long, draw a straight line with a grease pincel the full length of the glass. Roll the car on the line, if it moves off of the line before reaching the end, twist one of the front axles a 1/4 turn and repeat. If you have to rotate it more than 3/4, go to the other side and repeat. The front wheels are more critical because they have the pressure on them while the car is accelerating. We used a CMM to align the wheels

Lastly, if you have the means, make a 2 lane track and build more than one car and test, test, test and don't let the other dads touch the car! My son started on his cars the day after the last race of the year.

I've attached a photo of his final car. It's the natural wood colored one. On this particular car we filled the inside of the wheel cavity with epoxy to add weight which was allowed at the time. My son won every heat by more than .5 seconds so the next year the rules were amended.

 

[nitrotoys]

That wheel trick with the 3 touching, and 1 off. I did that last year and had to fix it to where it all 4 touched.

Mike when you said THIN The tires, The TIRE itself?

I think i know what your talking about, but yet am not sure.

How is the car going to have a automatic headstart with the nose longer. They start the cars while resting on the nose against the block...

Please explain.

Amorall I will have to try.

Thanks guys, LOL The Adults are more into this than the kids.

 

[Mike T.]

I made a test track to use at home to test several cars and test different ideas. Built about 8 cars and went to race day with the fastest. Also found some ran faster in one direction than the other, so figured out which end was fastest and made that the front of the car. It would be easy to tap some wires into an electronic stopwatch to trigger it when the car runs over a foil on the track to get elapsed times to compare. In the end we did a lot of winning, and the other dads expressed their dissatisfaction with people like myself who got involved and actually taught their kids how to do better (read: be competive). Meanwhile, as the tech inspector I noticed a lot of kids bringing in cars that were obviously built many years earlier so were plainly not built by them from a new-this-year kit (as required by the rules) - so much for scouts' honor. In disgust, I took the test track to friend's house in Carolina and left it for him and his son, and said to heck with the cub scouts here. :lol:

 

[Mike Byer]

this has always benn an adult cheating contest, anything worth winning is worth cheating for and your only cheating when you get caught, that's why you have to throw 10 tricks at them, and if they catch 7 your still 3 ahead. the nose extends over the device that holds the cars at the top of the track. most all of the tricks have been caught and stopped, but it depends on what has been seen in your area. reducing the axle to hub contact is undetectable from the outside and worth a bunch.

Mike B

 

[Foolwitools]

Hi Guys!

I cleared off a corner of the shop table and laid out the parts for the 8 yr. old grandson to build his car. I answerd his questions and showed him how to use the tools needed to build the thing.

I was under the impression that this was designed to see what the kids could do............ I guess I got the wrong idea.

Bob the Fool

 

[Joe_Knesek]

this has always benn an adult cheating contest, anything worth winning is worth cheating for and your only cheating when you get caught, that's why you have to throw 10 tricks at them, and if they catch 7 your still 3 ahead. Mike B

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I'd have to disagree with you on cheating. I don't see how you can get any satisfaction in winning by cheating. In my mind I'd rather have my son play to the edge of the rules but not look over the edge.

Bob, I agree to an extent but you can't expect a Tiger Cub to build a car on their own. You have to be the teacher. To me, it was gratifying to see my son learn enough each year to build his last car, the car in the photos, with nearly no help from me.

 

[Mike Byer]

If you never look over the edge you never see what is there.

 

[dave roach]

If anyone noe;s how to cheat that;s Joe just kidding.Joe;s wright about all he said. I built my neffew a car like Joe state;s and the car ran a little over 4second;s a run and and lost in the last heat of the day. one thing you can do is to put brass tubing in the wheels for the axle's to run more free.

 

[Mike Byer]

and come to think of it I have only ment 2 kinds for cheaters, those who say they do and those that say they don't.

 

[NITROSNIFER]

I have to agree to disagree. I want my kid to know the edge and learn to bend it, Masage it, do what it takes to win without obviuosly cheating. Find the grey area and stretch it a little. Just like in NASCAR bend the rules and let TEC find out what your doing. Thats how the TEC and sport continue to evolve.

 

[Joe_Knesek]

If you never look over the edge you never see what is there.

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So Mike, do you cheat in boat racing as well? How do you draw the line?

 

[Foolwitools]

If you never look over the edge you never see what is there.

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Mark Twian (AKA Samuel Clemens) also said " Why not go out on a limb?.......... That's where the fruit is. "

What does this have to do with teaching kids crafstmanship and fair play?

Bob the Fool :blink:

 

[Mike Byer]

If you never look over the edge you never see what is there.

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So Mike, do you cheat in boat racing as well? How do you draw the line?

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what line? didn't know there was a line, if I do cheat at boat racing it's up to you to catch me, stop me and kill me. My personal thoughts on the little cars, is that they should be built as a group in an afternoon get together, and raced that same day, without a bunch of high tech input from the fathers, not all fathers are created equal, giving the kids with less mechanical inclined fathers a big disadvantage. hammer, hand saw and a pocket knife, that's it, may the best cub scout win.

Mike B

 

[Joe_Knesek]

If you never look over the edge you never see what is there.

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So Mike, do you cheat in boat racing as well? How do you draw the line?

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what line? didn't know there was a line, if I do cheat at boat racing it's up to you to catch me, stop me and kill me. My personal thoughts on the little cars, is that they should be built as a group in an afternoon get together, and raced that same day, without a bunch of high tech input from the fathers, not all fathers are created equal, giving the kids with less mechanical inclined fathers a big disadvantage. hammer, hand saw and a pocket knife, that's it, may the best cub scout win.

Mike B

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Mike, anyone can cheat and win. That's not skill, it's a sign of ingorance & laziness. Winning while playing by the rules takes skill and briliance. When my son was in Cub Scouts, I opened my home to the entire troop every year. Every kid that took me up on the offer left with a greater skill level than the came with. It was a hands on experiance. The only time my son ever lost a race was to a friend of his who spent more time in my shop than my son did.

Jeffery Dohmer didn't see anything wrong with a midnight snack consisting of human biceps until the police knocked on his door. I guess in your eyes, he did nothing wrong until then.

 

[nitrotoys]

Thanks a BUNCH Guys For all the input.

Kinda suprised me when I seen 2 pages this morning, thought holy ****.

Just didnt know what other tricks were being done.

I know its the 5 oz for the car, and the wheels.

Cant add lenght to the car, as there is no advantage.

Need to take wheels to the shop again.

LOL Last year i think 3 other mechanics were watching over, Maybe to make sure i did things right.

Thanks again guys

Tom

 

[[email protected]]

2. If you can find it, use the BSA graphite in the blue tube. it's much better than the teflon or any other graphite we found.

13. If the rules allow, make hub caps out of round stickers. This will hold in the graphite. The graphite also sticks to the glue creating a bearing for the nail head to role on. It keep's the wheel in alignment and makes the car run true.

14. Add the weight as far back as possible to take advantage of the pondelem effect caused by the track's transition. Hollow out as much of the front of the car to make it as light as possible.

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**** Joe, LOL :lol: I don't want my kid racing yours. I printed off these directions to see if my eight year old can do this by himself. I highly doubt it, but hey maybe the kids a genius...LOL :lol: :lol:

B) That really is great information and I see it this way, of course we dads want to help build the cars, thats what the team work thing is all about.

But, I do kinda like what Mike Byers said though and give the kid the kit and let them have at it.

I haven't experienced the Pine Wood Derby thing yet, soon but not yet. But, I have however experienced the wicked and evil "SCIENCE PROJECT"

WHERE THESE 8,9 AND 10 year old kids build Space Shuttles, remote controlled Volcanoes and human hi-bred robots...LOL....Never knew my kids school was for Einstein's only!.....but basically it's the same principal. Parents do the project and get carried away. Last years best of show came from a 1st grade girl who, somehow lifted the car door off a 66 Cadillac and rigged it to a hydrolic system harnessed it to batteries and went on to show this grand theory of why people age from getting into cars...etc....I guess her dad was dying to write that report! :lol: :lol: