Fuel mixing

[Jim Allen]

Before you start putting in additives, best check the rule book. Most have been outlawed and if caught banishment will result. That is not even considering the health risks which are not worth it.

Always a good idea to check the rule book before commenting - seems to me the last time propylene oxide was mentioned someone claimed it was not allowed by the IMPBA rule book but on further review it is allowed.

Is ethylene oxide allowed??

JA

 

[John Beardslee]

If you have a postal scale that measures grams you can mix fuel very accurately by weighing the components.

Four liters (4000 ml) of fuel fills a US gallon can full with no air space to allow contamination, also phenolic lines cans prevent moisture from creeping in or your prope from leaching out.

For example the SG of nitro is 1.13 so for 60% fuel 4000 x .6 = 2400 ml x 1.13 ml/g = 2712g

Alcohol is .79 and most oils are close to 1.0.

Accuracy down to the 1 ml level.

I've also started adding 0.1% of amyl acetate to help keep the castor in solution, so far so good.

are you using prope Terry?

Yes, been running 3% for years. Helps starting, idle and transition, also very important at lower temps to burn the volume of fuel we throw at them!

Hi Terry,

I have the original paper work that came with some of my Rossi 80's back in the 80's and it shows a fuel blend with 10% propylene oxide in it. I copied it and forwarded it to David Bryant if I remember right. We used it for cold/winter starting on our power sleds ie: .40 engines with airplane props on skis with r/c rudders = 100 + mph. Much easier to start with prope instead of gasoline and much safer.

Thanks, John

 

[John Beardslee]

Before you start putting in additives, best check the rule book. Most have been outlawed and if caught banishment will result. That is not even considering the health risks which are not worth it.

Always a good idea to check the rule book before commenting - seems to me the last time propylene oxide was mentioned someone claimed it was not allowed by the IMPBA rule book but on further review it is allowed.

Is ethylene oxide allowed??

JA

Hi Jim,

As far as I know (and I haven't checked lately) only Hydrazine and Tetra Nitro Methane are not allowed by IMPBA, I don't know about NAMBA rules. Jim didn't Ed Kalfus use nitro benzene as a detonation inhibitor?

Thanks, John

 

[julianconde]

E. Fuel restrictions

The use of Tetra Nitro Methane or Hydrazine is illegal in all phases of model boating controlled by IMPBA. Any member found using these would be banned from IMPBA for one year. In addition, he will have to reimburse to IMPBA the entire fuel analyzing costs prior to being allowed to rejoin this organization.

That's what the rule book says. I just copied and paste.

 

[Jim Allen]

John,

We used nitrobenzene to keep the castor in high nitro fuels from separating. Later on we used ethylene oxide in place of propylene oxide as an igniter for very high nitro fuels. The ethylene also keep the 2/3 Klotz, 1/3 castor oil mix in solution. A typical formula of 80% nitro, 12% ethylene, 8% oil would needle & run like 40% nitro. The fuel required the use of a high quality steel roller rod when used in large size engines. In cooler weather the ethylene was raised to 14% & the oil was dropped to 6%.

Jim

 

[Terry Keeley]

Ya, you mention propylene oxide and people start running for the hills, claiming you're cheating and on and on. I know of at least one prominent commercial blender that mixes 2% and I'm sure there's more.

It's listed as a Group 2B carcinogen which means "there is limited evidence of carcinogenicity in humans and less than sufficient evidence of carcinogenicity in experimental animals" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IARC_Group_2B_carcinogens Notice Nitro is in the same category. I think the NHRA banned it because guys were getting crazy and motors were blowing up making costs prohibitive.

Another myth: It doesn't "evaporate" through cans, jugs etc. as easily as people believe. My lined cans weigh the same a year later...

 

[Terry Keeley]

Hi Terry,


I have the original paper work that came with some of my Rossi 80's back in the 80's and it shows a fuel blend with 10% propylene oxide in it. I copied it and forwarded it to David Bryant if I remember right. We used it for cold/winter starting on our power sleds ie: .40 engines with airplane props on skis with r/c rudders = 100 + mph. Much easier to start with prope instead of gasoline and much safer.

Thanks, John

I remember someone doing dyno tests for Flying Models way back, one of his mixes was 80-10-10 (nitro-prope-oil). I've tried leaving out the alcohol and upping the prope but found a little alky ran better.

 

[John Beardslee]

Ya, you mention propylene oxide and people start running for the hills, claiming you're cheating and on and on. I know of at least one prominent commercial blender that mixes 2% and I'm sure there's more.

It's listed as a Group 2B carcinogen which means "there is limited evidence of carcinogenicity in humans and less than sufficient evidence of carcinogenicity in experimental animals" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IARC_Group_2B_carcinogens Notice Nitro is in the same category. I think the NHRA banned it because guys were getting crazy and motors were blowing up making costs prohibitive.

Another myth: It doesn't "evaporate" through cans, jugs etc. as easily as people believe. My lined cans weigh the same a year later...

I think MILK is in the same classification in California!

 

[John Beardslee]

Hi Terry,


I have the original paper work that came with some of my Rossi 80's back in the 80's and it shows a fuel blend with 10% propylene oxide in it. I copied it and forwarded it to David Bryant if I remember right. We used it for cold/winter starting on our power sleds ie: .40 engines with airplane props on skis with r/c rudders = 100 + mph. Much easier to start with prope instead of gasoline and much safer.

Thanks, John

I remember someone doing dyno tests for Flying Models way back, one of his mixes was 80-10-10 (nitro-prope-oil). I've tried leaving out the alcohol and upping the prope but found a little alky ran better.

The thing we found with prope compared to nitro was you would see a smooth progression of change as you increased the percentage of nitro, with propylene oxide the small incremental increases in percentages produced huge & sometime exponential increases in results ie: broken parts!! We used a 3% mix for priming in winter for starting.

John

 

[Jim Allen]

Terry,

"Another myth: It doesn't "evaporate" through cans, jugs etc. as easily as people believe. My lined cans weigh the same a year later... "

I agree Terry. Neither ethylene or propylene oxide will leach out of solution once the fuel has been mixed. A specific gravity check of freshly mixed fuels & older fuels sitting on the shelf show no changes. The difference in oxygen content between ethylene (36% oxygen) & propylene (27% oxygen) makes it more suitable when running high nitro (53% oxygen) fuels. In fact, ethylene oxide contains as much oxygen as nitrous oxide.

Both ethylene & propylene can become unstable if they are repeatedly heated & cooled!!

JA

 

[BobBonahoom]

Guys, be careful with ethylene oxide. Propylene oxide is only a suspected carcinogen, but EO is a know carcinogen. It is very effective at cross-linking your DNA! I used to work at Dow Chemical, specifically on the plant where they made both PO and EO. We never went near EO without full protective gear.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Guys, be careful with ethylene oxide. Propylene oxide is only a suspected carcinogen, but EO is a know carcinogen. It is very effective at cross-linking your DNA! I used to work at Dow Chemical, specifically on the plant where they made both PO and EO. We never went near EO without full protective gear.

Ethylene Oxide ( EtO )

In addition to eye pain and sore throat, exposure to
EtO can cause difficult breathing and blurred vision.
Exposure can also cause dizziness, nausea, headache,
convulsions, blisters and can result in vomiting and
coughing. Both human and animal studies show that
EtO is a carcinogen that may cause leukemia and other
cancers. EtO is also linked to spontaneous abortion,
genetic damage, nerve damage, peripheral paralysis,
muscle weakness, as well as impaired thinking and
memory. In liquid form, EtO can cause severe skin
irritation upon prolonged or confined contact.

What should employers know about
ethylene oxide?

Employee exposure is limited to one part EtO per
million parts of air (1 ppm) measured as an 8-hour
time-weighted average (TWA). Employee exposure may
not exceed the short-term excursion limit of 5 ppm EtO
averaged over any 15-minute sampling period. These
limits are called permissible exposure limits (PELs).

 

[Tom Foley]

I just buy my fuel from John Otto @ Technology Fuels , runs great !

 

[dwilfong]

What the heck Tom show a little gumption and at least put a little Hydrazine in it .............................................

Just for you DON...............................

 

[Don Ferrette]

What the heck Tom show a little gumption and at least put a little Hydrazine in it .............................................

Just for you DON...............................

And there's David right on cue......................... just like one of Pavlov's dogs. LMAO!!

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:lol:

 

[dwilfong]

Brings back fond memories of my first time on IW.

One of my firsts posts was mixing H with nitro when the nitro famine was going on.

You deleted all my post and ask who the heck is this guy.

I'm still here hanging around keeping you on your toes after all theirs years.

LOVE YA.........................

David Wilfong

3138 Boggy Terrace Drive

Kissimmee FL 34744

P.S. that's so the man know where to come get me at.....................LOL

 

[Jim Allen]

Without getting into an argument, I consider the following chemicals that could be used in model boat fuels as dangerous. Some are toxic & others are classified as extremely toxic. In many cases I would rather handle cyanide. Many are a contact hazard & are capable of passing through a lot of typical glove materials. Some can be easily absorbed through skin contact, some can react violently with water, bases, acids, alcohols & are highly flammable, forming explosive mixtures in air. Moderate levels of some (.01% or less) can rapidly be fatal if inhaled. Some vapors are heavier than air & can travel long distances along the floor's surface.

The correct material gloves, sleeve protectors, aprons, splash proof googles, face shields, respirators & explosion proof ventilation systems, can give adequate protection. Skipping any of these means you have become complacent & the consequences will be to place your bodily health in a hazardous situation!

I consider the following chemicals as hazardous; Ethylene Oxide, Propylene Oxide, Nitro Methane, Methanol Alcohol, Nitrous Oxide, Hydrogen peroxide, Tetra-nitromethane, Nitro Benzene & Tetra-ethyl lead.

Jim Allen

 

[dwilfong]

Dang Nitrous Oxide?????? I have huff more of that than air when I was young and dumb.

Still take the top off the whip cream can when it is finished..........

May be that's what's wrong with me to much whip cream....................................................

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