FE faces some interesting challenges.

[Jeffmaturo]

Hi Don, thanks for question.

Unfortunately we have never met but I know you have some great experience. With that being said I know you will understand this real life example from this past Sunday. We are at our local club pond having friendly races between Q and P cats (classes were separated) . Club member shows up with a twin and decimates the competition. Other club members are bummed and want to run a different class. Now the problem has been identified as an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE which causes others to be disinterested knowing they don't have a chance. Stay with me here Don, the solution I offered is simple. DO NOT run them in the same class. Most experienced racers will beat a single with a twin any day! I sure hope this helps you better understand. Jeff

 

[Don Ferrette]

Hi Don, thanks for question.

Unfortunately we have never met but I know you have some great experience. With that being said I know you will understand this real life example from this past Sunday. We are at our local club pond having friendly races between Q and P cats (classes were separated) . Club member shows up with a twin and decimates the competition. Other club members are bummed and want to run a different class. Now the problem has been identified as an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE which causes others to be disinterested knowing they don't have a chance. Stay with me here Don, the solution I offered is simple. DO NOT run them in the same class. Most experienced racers will beat a single with a twin any day! I sure hope this helps you better understand. Jeff

So you want to make a guy who built a class legal twin illegal or at the least penalize him?? Wrong answer. The solution you offer is neither simple or fair. I have raced singles and twins for many years and a properly set up single will run just as fast. The twins excel with more power off the corners and leave a bigger hole in the water behind them but can and do get beat by a good single. Sounds more like your club members need to look for ways to make improvements. You can do what you want as far as rules on a club level but just because a couple local guys got their asses handed to them does in no way justify calling for changing national level rules that have been in place and work.

 

[Jeffmaturo]

Hi Don,

You bring up some good points. People have been spoon feeding fellow racers that garbage since the first RC car and boat races took place. I say hogwash!

"oh you need to work on your set up" "I've been racing for 21 years and you will have to race that long too until you get good" come on........that's a bunch of bull. Here is a great example. Raced cars for 30 years, had a great time. Became friends with top rated, sponsored drivers. Come to find out that the batts they were running were illegal just with the same shrink wrap, motors were hand wound with illegal winds, and even the tires were unobtanium. If someone has a twin, then race someone else with a twin. Simple and fair. I would be happy to prove the point by showing up at races with a twin then we can revisit this conversation. Thanks for your input!

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Hi Don,

You bring up some good points. People have been spoon feeding fellow racers that garbage since the first RC car and boat races took place. I say hogwash!

"oh you need to work on your set up" "I've been racing for 21 years and you will have to race that long too until you get good" come on........that's a bunch of bull. Here is a great example. Raced cars for 30 years, had a great time. Became friends with top rated, sponsored drivers. Come to find out that the batts they were running were illegal just with the same shrink wrap, motors were hand wound with illegal winds, and even the tires were unobtanium. If someone has a twin, then race someone else with a twin. Simple and fair. I would be happy to prove the point by showing up at races with a twin then we can revisit this conversation. Thanks for your input!

Sounds like we are going to see a race between you two to me...

 

[Jeffmaturo]

Carl honest and open dialogue is what we need to grow properly with rules that make sense.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Hi Don,

You bring up some good points. People have been spoon feeding fellow racers that garbage since the first RC car and boat races took place. I say hogwash!

"oh you need to work on your set up" "I've been racing for 21 years and you will have to race that long too until you get good" come on........that's a bunch of bull. Here is a great example. Raced cars for 30 years, had a great time. Became friends with top rated, sponsored drivers. Come to find out that the batts they were running were illegal just with the same shrink wrap, motors were hand wound with illegal winds, and even the tires were unobtanium. If someone has a twin, then race someone else with a twin. Simple and fair. I would be happy to prove the point by showing up at races with a twin then we can revisit this conversation. Thanks for your input!

Sounds like we are going to see a race between you two to me...

Nope. Not going to waste any more time with this, I should have known better as apparently I don't know **** and Jeff has all the right answers. Hey Jeff maybe you should hook up with David Howarth, another one who seems to know all about how we are doing everything wrong. Have a nice day...........I'm outta here.

 

[Jeffmaturo]

Never said anyone was doing anything wrong. Fortunately your not in a position to make decisions that will affect me racing. The entire reason for this thread was to create open dialogue and exchange of ideas to overcome the hurdles we as racers face racing FE. One of them I have identified as running apples against oranges. The racing organizations can easily bring it up to a vote. I would be more than happy to say I was wrong if it was voted down. I don't take this personally nor should you Don. I am certainly entitled to an opinion just like anyone else. So relax, I can see your very passionate about the subject. If I ever get the pleasure of meeting you I will buy you a beer and we can agree to disagree.

 

[longballlumber]

Jeff, for what it’s worth I agree FE twins needs to be addressed. With that being said, I don’t agree that our only answer is to eliminate the ability to run twins. We also have several records in the books that have been set using the current written rules.

One idea I have been tossing around to others is managing it with total voltage divided by the number of motors. So in the situation your describing is Q or 6S voltage; if they want to run 2 motors in the Q (6s voltage) 6S class / 2 motors = 3S limit on each motor… Heck, as far as I am concerned they can run 3 motors if they want; 6S class / 3 motors = 2S limit on each motor. The same would apply for S and T classes (respectively 8S and 10S). This still allows racers the freedom to run twins if they like. However, we (the IMPBA) would need to find a solution with Time Trials primarily SAW records.

 

[RaceMechaniX]

Just my 2 cents, I don't like the idea of separating twins and singles. I agree with Don that usually a good single will be as strong as a twin, but in recent years twins have been making some strong appearances especially in the Q and higher cell count classes. And credit should be given to those individuals who build boats within the rule set. A lot of these twins are built as open boats to run on mixed power race weekends for open oval and open offshore and will hold there own against competitive nitro and gas boats.

For you local racing Jeff, It should be within the power of the CD to modify the classes to a "single P".

I am against separating SAW, 2-Lap and open racing classes. The same rules should apply across the board.

 

[raptor347]

We never had these twin problems in FE until cats got popular. Let's just ban cats from competition! Just kidding.

Mike,

Dividing the voltage by number of motors only works if you limit the total stored energy on board.

I'm thinking outriggers here. Give me 10AH of capacity per motor and I'll put 3kW per shaft on 3S. Rough calcs put it ahead of either of my Q singles.

 

[Jeffmaturo]

Tyler definitely at the club level we will be doing that. I can not underscore enough no one is trying to punish twins. All I am saying is twins should run against twins. I love twins but this is a group decision and that is why I brought it up. Certainly was not trying to upset Don but there certainly is more than one side to this issue. We are growing in FE. We will continue to grow. Lets set a solid base for future and current racers to build on. Thank you guys for your thoughts.

 

[HTV Boats]

The present FE rules for the most part were written before Lipo's and brushless motors became the norm. Twins vs single is pretty much a Cat issue at this point. If they each had their own record it would not affect much or many people. For SAW twins are far ahead of singles and in ovals it's just a matter of time. I have built a few single cats with respectable record times and can tell you Jeffs reference to someone getting their ass handed to them was me. If our local top gun takes his twin to record trials my records are toast. I would have to build a twin at some cost to compete. Is it fair? yes and no. I accept my singles records will fall but I'd have more respect for the driver that does it with a single over just out spending me. Again just adding separate records is pretty easy.

Now for the real reason to address rules is cost. I see countless threads on how to attract new racers and yet we just keep rules that favor wallet racers. Look at the largest FE classes run numbers wise and it's Spec/Limited. Why? cost effective and somewhat level competition. Yet no consensus on this class.

Lets move up to Q. Four guys built Q cats and a fifth comes in with a good twin. The 2 slower guys quit and now your class won't grow as any new talent will be discouraged building as single. To me having an exotic cool boat with no one to race is a waste. I would love to see a single motor 40X85mm limit "Q: class. Just a thought.

Mic

 

[Jeffmaturo]

The present FE rules for the most part were written before Lipo's and brushless motors became the norm. Twins vs single is pretty much a Cat issue at this point. If they each had their own record it would not affect much or many people. For SAW twins are far ahead of singles and in ovals it's just a matter of time. I have built a few single cats with respectable record times and can tell you Jeffs reference to someone getting their ass handed to them was me. If our local top gun takes his twin to record trials my records are toast. I would have to build a twin at some cost to compete. Is it fair? yes and no. I accept my singles records will fall but I'd have more respect for the driver that does it with a single over just out spending me. Again just adding separate records is pretty easy.

Now for the real reason to address rules is cost. I see countless threads on how to attract new racers and yet we just keep rules that favor wallet racers. Look at the largest FE classes run numbers wise and it's Spec/Limited. Why? cost effective and somewhat level competition. Yet no consensus on this class.

Lets move up to Q. Four guys built Q cats and a fifth comes in with a good twin. The 2 slower guys quit and now your class won't grow as any new talent will be discouraged building as single. To me having an exotic cool boat with no one to race is a waste. I would love to see a single motor 40X85mm limit "Q: class. Just a thought.

Mic

Spot on. I agree also that it is now a CAT issue, but wait until someone shows up with a twin mono. This is not a difficult problem to fix, a simple rules change and its done.

 

[PropNut]

For those that follow threads on OSE, I would encourage a look at the following thread. The comments by Mike Paganelli (many time NAMBA Q Cat champion) are of note.

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?60027-6s-Q-cat-for-IMPBA

 

[Jeffmaturo]

Good post Ray, just read the thread. Had to read it twice but it is there, echoes exactly what I was pointing out.

 

[Chilli]

The irony in Larry's twin set up on the OSE thread is that he probably has less money in motors and ESC's than Mike has in his single. Those that frequent OSE know Mike uses quality equipment on the higher end of the $ spectrum. Nothing wrong with that but Larry found a way to go faster, cheaper. Kudos to him!

 

[Doug Smock]

The current FE rules (voltage, length restrictions etc.) are a result of the introduction of LiPo. Brushless motors were already being run.

Nitro-twins are separate, LSG- twins are separate, FE- twins are allowed in Q,S,& T. I guess that makes sense.

Tell me again why twins aren't allowed in A-F classes (2xA -2xF) and LSG 27 & 36...…….

 

[Don Ferrette]

The current FE rules (voltage, length restrictions etc.) are a result of the introduction of LiPo. Brushless motors were already being run.

Nitro-twins are separate, LSG- twins are separate, FE- twins are allowed in Q,S,& T. I guess that makes sense.

Tell me again why twins aren't allowed in A-F classes (2xA -2xF) and LSG 27 & 36...…….

Actually Doug twins are allowed in ALL nitro mono and hydro classes (except specialty classes of course) as long as you meet displacement limits. A twin .21 is legal in D (45) classes, a twin .29 is legal in the E (67) classes and of course twin .91s are legal in F (1.83) -

II - ENGINE/MOTOR DEFINITIONS and CLASSIFICATIONS

A. Displacement

The cubic inch displacement of a power plant shall be the sum total of the displacement of all

cylinders in the power plant. The cubic inch displacement of multi-cylinder engines, two or more

engines driving attached together and two or more engines driving separate propellers will be

added together to determine the total displacement and thus the class the power will run in. To

determine engine class, read calculated engine displacement to three decimal places, drop all

remaining figures.

B. Internal Combustion Nitro Engine Classes

Class Cubic Inch Displacement Metric Class

A 0.000 thru 0.129 2.1 CC

B 0.130 thru 0.219 3.5 CC

C 0.220 thru 0.300 4.9 CC

D 0.301 thru 0.458 7.5 CC

E 0.459 thru 0.670 11.0 CC

F 0.671 thru 1.830 30.0 CC

Formulas: CC X .061 = CID, CID divided by .061 = CC

These classes will be Auto Ignition (Glow Plug / Diesel )

and Alternate Fuels (Methanol / Nitro Methane)

 

[Don Ferrette]

Tyler definitely at the club level we will be doing that. I can not underscore enough no one is trying to punish twins. All I am saying is twins should run against twins. I love twins but this is a group decision and that is why I brought it up. Certainly was not trying to upset Don but there certainly is more than one side to this issue. We are growing in FE. We will continue to grow. Lets set a solid base for future and current racers to build on. Thank you guys for your thoughts.

I know I said I was done with this and I am but one more post just to be clear- I'm not upset at all, just smart enough to see there is only one side to this- yours. Quote- "I say hogwash!" "that's a bunch of bull" Yup, rather clear in that it's not worth anymore keystrokes as you are totally closed minded and are dead set on wanting the rules changed. If you have a problem with the twin cats in your area as Tyler pointed out deal with it on the local level. I will say one thing though in this to think about as an example- IMPBA nitro twins that fit within the displacement limit can run in F hydro class and every big race I go to has a good mix of both. There were some who didn't like running singles with twins so often a "single only" F hydro class gets offered and typically a good number opt for it. Now here's the kicker- it's a win win for both as the twins that are legal displacement run in F and twin class. The single F boats have a singles class now and can still run with the twins in regular F class and MANY do just that. So both get two classes to run in with one boat, the host club gets more entries and it works!

So you all have fun with this................ see ya!

 

[Doug Smock]

The current FE rules (voltage, length restrictions etc.) are a result of the introduction of LiPo. Brushless motors were already being run.

Nitro-twins are separate, LSG- twins are separate, FE- twins are allowed in Q,S,& T. I guess that makes sense.

Tell me again why twins aren't allowed in A-F classes (2xA -2xF) and LSG 27 & 36...…….

Actually Doug twins are allowed in ALL nitro mono and hydro classes as long as you meet displacement limits. A twin .21 is legal in D (45) classes, a twin .29 is legal in the E (67) classes and of course twin .91s are legal in F (1.83) hydro-

I know that my brother.

In your haste to bust my azz

you overlooked (2xA - 2xF)^^^^^^^

See ya at the pond!