Anyone have real motor specs for 1717 castle/nue

[hugh hargett]

As you know the castle/nue motors only give you general specs like max voltage 25 and a broad claim of 5000 watt burst. Here the problem with that. If your max usable amp draw is 120 amps @ 25 volts 3000 watts is all the work you can do. The rest is heat so why make a claim of 5000 watts :huh: . At 25 volts 200 amps would be a peak rating. 141.4 amps should be a safe continuous rating so somethings not right here :huh: . Also if the max rpm is 49000 I calculate 31 volts as its max voltage unloaded.

Id really like to see some datalogged runs of a 1717 for obvious reasons.

Im curious as to the size of the biggest prop anyone has run on a 1717 without heating issues?

Can I run an x457 x460 x560 on it and keep the draw under 140 amps continuous?

 

[ryan_t888]

The max "usable" current is not always the same. Change in conditions can greatly vary results. Neu generally doesn't provide this value, however Castle does which may give buyers an idea for an ESC.

The fact that this motor was initially intended for land use changes the way one would choose a motor. Telling users the max is 6s (25v) is a conservative way for Castle to limit the motors use. Not everyone looks in to it as deeply as we would. I'm quite certain the motor would handle more, especially if that is the true max RPM. But if Castle were to say max 8s, users would be popping ESC's left right and center.

I will be using the 1520 that castle has. They recommend a max of 25v and I know for certain I can and will be running it on 8s.

Brushless motors often pull 1.5 times the current under acceleration than at a moderate speed.(Land Vehicles) This value is best represented by the burst rating. The burst rating will provide you with excellent performance but at a reduced run time. It's definitely not all just waste heat.

Looking back at Boats there are several SAW racers who are making records by operating the motor near its max peak rating. The motor is under heavy thermal stress and load but makes excellent power.

Keep in mind - Castle motors are padded for a conservative setup. Abused motors come back for warranty issues and its not easy explaining to people they are to blame for the problem.

The largest prop on a 1717 without thermal issues is a very relative question. If I ran the 1717 in the winter at -5C in a rigger and ran the 1717 in the summer at 30C in a mono, the prop that I would be telling you would be significantly different. This is just a couple of many factors that contribute to prop choice.

I'm not sure where the value of 141.4A comes from. It sounds to me that it may be close to a max efficiency rating. If so or if not, either way - Aiming for a certain current rating is not ideal or practical. The motor may not thermally except a 140A load in certain conditions.

Your best solution is to run your setup as you wish with the prop you know works and monitor run times, speeds and temps. Increase your prop diameter gradually until you achieve 140F at the end of a full duration run. Test, test, test is the only way to achieve new goals with your specific setup.

 

[hugh hargett]

"I'm not sure where the value of 141.4A comes from. It sounds to me that it may be close to a max efficiency rating. If so or if not, either way - Aiming for a certain current rating is not ideal or practical. The motor may not thermally except a 140A load in certain conditions."

I got that number by calculating the 200 amps from the burst rating then dividing it by 1.41. apprx the square root of 2

I go for the amp rating coz over amping will burn the motor or create alot of heat. The 141 amps was a crude rms approximation based on a 200 amp burst. This 1717 is in a 40 inch mono surface drive If that helps. I like to find a good prop range to start so im not buying too many props

sorry i didnt say what vessel the 1717 was in.

"Your best solution is to run your setup as you wish with the prop you know works and monitor run times, speeds and temps. Increase your prop diameter gradually until you achieve 140F at the end of a full duration run. Test, test, test is the only way to achieve new goals with your specific setup."

that makes sense.

 

[ryan_t888]

Ah ok, I see what you have done.

RMS is the average value for current or voltage in a sine wave. A common example of this is the AC current we get from a wall in our home. The actual Voltage we see and use is the RMS voltage. The peak to peak voltage is higher.

The waveform of the output in the ESC's we use for brushless motors is known as the square waveform. This means the peak(+ amplitude of graph) to peak ( - amplitude of graph) current is also equal to the RMS current.

When manufactures provide values, it's always going to be in RMS terms. Just like the household voltage. In North America it's 110vrms not listed as 155v peak to peak.

In other words the motor is fully capable of pulling 200A for a short period of time. This is know as a burst current.

___________________________________________________________

A Castle 1717 1Y on 6s2p 180+A ESC will work very well in a 40" mono.

You will most likely run props ranging from 45-50mm in diameter. I'd strongly recommend starting at 45-46mm and working your way up from there. Following the moving up in prop diameter paragraph in this First Run page will keep your electronics safe.

 

[lohring]

I've pointed out many times that maximum current is the limiting factor at the low voltages we run. Even then, how long the current flows is what's important because heating is what destroys motors. You can very seriously overload an electric motor without any problem if the heat developed doesn't break down the insulation. Since our races are for a fairly short time and water cooling is very effective, we can run motors considerably above a "normal" rating.

Lohring Miller

 

[hugh hargett]

I will run it on 2 6s 5200 mah 25c packs parallel and a suppo 200 amp 7 s esc. I need a castle ice esc for this motor or at least an eagle tree.

Thanks for the help . Ill try a 637,645 and a k51 it like to turn a 457 prop wont happen I dont have a x4 series prop in the 45-50 mm range. probably need to grab a x450 and something slighly smaller in a 3 blade or m series.

Hugh

 

[Scott_T]

Hugh,

I'm running the aero version of the 1717 (1,500 kv) in a 37" Delta Force mono. Running 6S1P (5,000 mAh) it spins a 447/3 nicely. Sorry, I haven't logged any data though.

If you're running 6S2P, and probably the buggy version (1,580 kv), then the 447/3 or a 450/2 would be a good starting point.

 

[hugh hargett]

Thanks scott

Lohring Where can I get I a

castle ice esc?

Been sold out most places ive searched lately. Do you or brian have a source? Do you have an example of the castle dataloging screens?

 

[dwilfong]

I have bin working with square wave generators ever since I built my first model train power pack at the age of 12. In my professional carer I have worked on hydraulic Ariel lifts for 30 years. All of witch use 12v DC power to run a square wave generator to control the hydraulic valves.

The main problem with square wave generators is the drop in DC voltage on the supply side of the circuit. most generators will compensate for load. but when the supply voltage drops. this will make the circuit broaden out the peak voltage out put of the system and increase the amp draw. this time spent at peak voltage is where the over heating comes from. the on and off or reversing of the wave need to be controlled by time spent at peak.

A square wave generator dose not put out a sin wave it is a on of switch that goes from 100% + to 100%- with nothing between. it is like flipping a light switch back and forth between two lights. the faster you flip it the more off time it has. If the input voltage drops the time at peak will get longer.resulting in less time between, or off time.

When logging a system you need to see how stable the input voltage is. that is the reason for cap banks on the input side. It is not as much as the amp draw as the power source and its ability to maintain voltage.

Good batt will solve most problems with burned up controllers.

Also a good specked cap bank will do the most good.

Every thing else is gust a band aid for a poorly tune system.

unstable voltage on the input side is your worst enemy.

David

 

[ryan_t888]

Agree

 

[lohring]

I got my ICE 100 from Tower Hobbies. See the post in the Offshore Electrics forum for a picture of the water cooling.

Lohring Miller

 

[hugh hargett]

I have bin working with square wave generators ever since I built my first model train power pack at the age of 12. In my professional carer I have worked on hydraulic Ariel lifts for 30 years. All of witch use 12v DC power to run a square wave generator to control the hydraulic valves.

The main problem with square wave generators is the drop in DC voltage on the supply side of the circuit. most generators will compensate for load. but when the supply voltage drops. this will make the circuit broaden out the peak voltage out put of the system and increase the amp draw. this time spent at peak voltage is where the over heating comes from. the on and off or reversing of the wave need to be controlled by time spent at peak.

A square wave generator dose not put out a sin wave it is a on of switch that goes from 100% + to 100%- with nothing between. it is like flipping a light switch back and forth between two lights. the faster you flip it the more off time it has. If the input voltage drops the time at peak will get longer.resulting in less time between, or off time.

When logging a system you need to see how stable the input voltage is. that is the reason for cap banks on the input side. It is not as much as the amp draw as the power source and its ability to maintain voltage.

Good batt will solve most problems with burned up controllers.

Also a good specked cap bank will do the most good.

Every thing else is gust a band aid for a poorly tune system.

unstable voltage on the input side is your worst enemy.

David

Agreed David, good batteries do provide a good power source with minimal ripple. I did a write up on bulk electrolytic caps versus npo ceramics but no one chimed in Hopefully you will next time as it seems you have a good idea whats going on. If you get a chance go check that article. My newest cap banks have ceramics too. I get my pcb machine running I plan to try a full ceramic cap board. Should look like a thick credit card if you will. Without datalogging I cant make real world comparisons though. That will be another tool I get when I grab the new oscillioscope. It will be fun to analyze the outputs of different esc manufacturers. If we got away from sensorless controllers in boats I think wed be alot happier when dealing with varying amperage loads . I saw some new hacker stuff that uses sinusodial commutataion. They seemed very pleased with themselves :mellow: I guess it must be an airplane thing coz my reasearch tells me that FOC field oriented commutation would be much better for us boaters as sinus drives are better for appliance motors that run at one constant speed and constant amperage loads. A sensored FOC designed esc would deal with the varying current loads much better than a sensorless one. Sensorless escs are designed that way for one reason-cost.

Scott im a little affraid of a 1 p setup h34r: in my mono coz my cells are only 25c are yours 35-40c? I would want too provide at least 180 amps from the batteries in a mono

Lohring the one thing id like to see castle do is give a sensored option. I even considered some of the Tekin car motors an esc's to get that option in my boat. I know at one time Bill Oxidean was doing real well with the novak sensored stuff.

 

[dwilfong]

I have bin working with square wave generators ever since I built my first model train power pack at the age of 12. In my professional carer I have worked on hydraulic Ariel lifts for 30 years. All of witch use 12v DC power to run a square wave generator to control the hydraulic valves.

The main problem with square wave generators is the drop in DC voltage on the supply side of the circuit. most generators will compensate for load. but when the supply voltage drops. this will make the circuit broaden out the peak voltage out put of the system and increase the amp draw. this time spent at peak voltage is where the over heating comes from. the on and off or reversing of the wave need to be controlled by time spent at peak.

A square wave generator dose not put out a sin wave it is a on of switch that goes from 100% + to 100%- with nothing between. it is like flipping a light switch back and forth between two lights. the faster you flip it the more off time it has. If the input voltage drops the time at peak will get longer.resulting in less time between, or off time.

When logging a system you need to see how stable the input voltage is. that is the reason for cap banks on the input side. It is not as much as the amp draw as the power source and its ability to maintain voltage.

Good batt will solve most problems with burned up controllers.

Also a good specked cap bank will do the most good.

Every thing else is gust a band aid for a poorly tune system.

unstable voltage on the input side is your worst enemy.

David

Agreed David, good batteries do provide a good power source with minimal ripple. I did a write up on bulk electrolytic caps versus npo ceramics but no one chimed in Hopefully you will next time as it seems you have a good idea whats going on. If you get a chance go check that article. My newest cap banks have ceramics too. I get my pcb machine running I plan to try a full ceramic cap board. Should look like a thick credit card if you will. Without datalogging I cant make real world comparisons though. That will be another tool I get when I grab the new oscilloscope. It will be fun to analyze the outputs of different esc manufacturers. If we got away from sensorless controllers in boats I think wed be allot happier when dealing with varying amperage loads . I saw some new hacker stuff that uses sinusodial commutation. They seemed very pleased with themselves :mellow: I guess it must be an airplane thing coz my research tells me that FOC field oriented commutation would be much better for us boaters as sinus drives are better for appliance motors that run at one constant speed and constant amperage loads. A sensored FOC designed esc would deal with the varying current loads much better than a sensorless one. Sensorless escs are designed that way for one reason-cost.

Scott im a little affraid of a 1 p setup h34r: in my mono coz my cells are only 25c are yours 35-40c? I would want too provide at least 180 amps from the batteries in a mono

Lohring the one thing id like to see castle do is give a sensored option. I even considered some of the Tekin car motors an esc's to get that option in my boat. I know at one time Bill Oxidean was doing real well with the novak sensored stuff.

My new job is with Rite Hite corp thy make freezer door and such. the drives on the newest model use a RPM sensor to see what the drum that drives the door is doing. thy call it a encoder. it lets the ECU know what is going on all the time. these doors will travel at 110" per second. thy can go faster but the tracks will heat up with only grease for lube. thy tried Castor oil and it worked the best. but try and lube a door track with it all the time. what a mess.

If the ECU's had a encoder on the output shaft of the eng it would make this a whole different story. Load to RPM adjustments to the voltage and not a holding the wave open longer would keep every thing cool and control the input power draw,

It depends on how the ECU controls speed with different peak voltage in a short wave form or max voltage and changing wave peek hold time.

Would be interesting to put a scope on one and see the wave form under load.

David

 

[hugh hargett]

well at least someone can get a job I have over 25 applications online at cree in RTP lol. Im also trying to get on with castle. Sent them a resume too. It would be priceless to work with the engineers their on BLDC design.

Lohring I really need a data logger to get a clear picture of this 1717

 

[hugh hargett]

Got about a min run today with a x645 it all came back in cool ^_^

 

[ryan_t888]

Got about a min run today with a x645 it all came back in cool ^_^

That's good. Will this be raced?

I got my ICE 100 from Tower Hobbies. See the post in the Offshore Electrics forum for a picture of the water cooling.

Lohring Miller

Do you require a pistix to arm the ESC? Or can you trim the throttle channel back with your tx far enough to arm?

 

[hugh hargett]

Dont know ryan Darin is saying the strakes are illegal :huh: if so thats sad coz the boat was designed by an impba hall of famer for heat racing in the offshore class. Monos cant have any steps LIKE THE REAL ONES either but oh well. If you want to see my minute of fame goto my prather thread i have some video posted. The pistix question is for lohring I guess. Ive never had a problem arming any esc with any radio . Ive had alot of different brands of both radios, and esc's. The most common goof I made was was setting the servo reverse switch in the wrong position or making sure the servo lead from the esc is plugged in the right way.

 

[Scott_T]

Scott im a little affraid of a 1 p setup h34r: in my mono coz my cells are only 25c are yours 35-40c? I would want too provide at least 180 amps from the batteries in a mono

Hugh, I'm running 1P because that's all our racing rules allow. But mine are 65C packs. 6S2P would be best if you have 25C.

So you got a 1717 and ran it with a 645? Happy?

 

[hugh hargett]

Hello Scott, It was okay it ran flat and turned well . Never got to really open her up. Would love to be able to accomplish 1 p in a 40 inch mono but there so much debate about high "c" claims. I did see a turnigy nanotech vs. thunderpower video. Was quite interesting to say the least. I wont start the war. All I can say is; go check it out on the hobby king website for yourself. I myself really am looking into Li-Ion for heat running and lipos for saw. You can charge the Li-Ions all day no problem 1000 recharge cycle capable,durable(no deformations), and alot SAFER. Li-ions only like to have about 2 charges at a time from what Ive read. Obviously theyre not too safe needing a charge bag :unsure: . The power to weight is better with the Li-Pos, so theyd be ideal for saw. The cells Im currently running are; BQY 25c 5200 mah 6 s packs in parallel. Maybe someone will get smart and manufacture silver-oxide cells. Military spec stuff. Anyway.

1p 6s should make a real quick boat . It would shave 2 pounds off my setup :lol: so I really need to think about purchasing some higher c cells;who tells the truth? What I want to do today before I go run is manually set up the esc timings and everything. Since it came in cold I may bump it up a little. Ill still be at 2p; cant risk ruining my cells. At least the cheap suppo came with 5 caps installed.I may install about 1650 uf of capacitance. Accurately calculating capacitance for our application can be a bit hairy. It seems the industry is using 5-6000 uf packs on competition setups.The NPO ceramics that I speak of are to help with small fast spikes when the larger electrolytics arent quite fast enough.

Ill post new runs today the 1717 eats up the x645 I think it could turn a 648 no problem wish I had a cupped x450.

Hugh

 

[hugh hargett]

Was using the castle link software to program the esc today which left me with a few questions.

1. The 1717 is a 4 pole motor correct?

2. the default timing for the esc is 10 degrees correct?

3.wouldnt a lower timing do better on a 4 pole motor ?

4.where would you set your current limit? I was thinking 200amps x 1.41 or the square root of two.